-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Ethiopia says British museum must permanently return its artifacts
- Thread starter platocplx
- Start date
- Status
I dont remember who was fighting who in the Africa Civil War, or what year it was, but I do know the museums were the first strategic targets hit and looted. Someone said ISIS was involved though. Were they on the north or south?
...Give the shit back
...Give the shit back
Ah yes, UK a beacon of anti-corruption. When I think of "least corrupt country" I definitely think of the UK lol foh
What does other countries in Africa have to do with Ethiopia?
It's so ironic that Europe spent decades convincing people that Africa had no civilization, no history, no art... but their museums are FILLED with looted African treasures they stole.
Shit, at least Italy have us our obelisk back.
Shit, at least Italy have us our obelisk back.
I won't even entertain this nonsense.
No one has colonized Ethiopia.
I've read up on it just now and its not quite as simple as "they stole our shit".
The Ethiopian Emperor at the time "imprisoned several missionaries and two representatives of the British government in an attempt to get the attention of the British government, which had decided against his requests for military assistance." He was fighting rebels and asked for help... and when he got turned down he pretty much declared war on Britain.
Fun fact. One of the hostages was an ambassador sent by Queen Victoria to represent Britain. That man was an Iraqi, Hormuzd Rassam.
The Etheopians were the aggressors in this one. I don't think they're gonna get the artefacts back, nor is it surprising.
The Ethiopian Emperor at the time "imprisoned several missionaries and two representatives of the British government in an attempt to get the attention of the British government, which had decided against his requests for military assistance." He was fighting rebels and asked for help... and when he got turned down he pretty much declared war on Britain.
Fun fact. One of the hostages was an ambassador sent by Queen Victoria to represent Britain. That man was an Iraqi, Hormuzd Rassam.
The Etheopians were the aggressors in this one. I don't think they're gonna get the artefacts back, nor is it surprising.
You're the one randomly talking about corruption. I only kicked the ball where you moved the goal to.
Thats what you're implying whether or not you know it.
Your words come off as being coded. The USA is a Corrupt country. From the top to bottom. Same with the UK.
This is also ignoring historical context in which your non-corrupted countires destabilized these places, stole resources people and routinely undermined any effort to better their situation.
You should read up on what the IMF has done to Jamaica. You should read on how the FBI and cointelpro conspired to kill Patrice Lumumba.
You know how the media would describe these actions if they were done against white people?
Terrorists...monsters..subhumans....
No one said they were legally obligated to do it. We're saying they should do it because it's the right thing to do.
It will never happen. Mexico has been asking for ages for the return of Moctezuma's penacho or atleast to lend it for an exposition and the response is always "fuck off".
https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2017
Not posting this to side with an argument, but just for the info I could find.
There is corruption everywhere and the UK is far from clean, but we're far far from the worst.
Then why do you quote?
God forbid someone believes the opposite because stuff from museums have been stolen and sold.
Did you read the links I posted?
Really? The vast majority of posters here come from a former or current imperialist society. I completely expected at least a few.
Yes, and that is clearly going to be what happens here since we all know that only white westerners are capable of properly caring for historic artifacts.
How dare the Ethiopians want their cultural heritage back. Don't the know they just a bunch of irresponsible wogs who can't take care it of themselves.
It shouldn't surprise you. I didn't expect any less. This forum positioned itself as being better than Gaf. But it's just more of the same. Unfortunately.
The ones with all the horrible Blacks in them.
Yes and I rolled my eyes accordingly. Ethiopia has a National Museum, they've had one since 1944 and they're always adding to it. Hell one of their most famous and noteworthy exhibitions is fucking Lucy. I've been to the Ethiopia National museum twice and they have many artifacts from their past on display and they're all well kept by the research department, and the museum is funded by the government. This will come as a shock but there haven't been hordes of shady black guys from the criminal underworld or political world who've emptied the museum dry and sold everything in underground auctions because something something corruption.
What evidence is there that a ultra capitalistic first world country with no actual ties to those artifacts wouldn't sell them to a bunch of 1%ers so they can hang them in their private collection so they can brag to their equally rich friends about how much they paid for them?
Your complaints are only slightly valid if Ethiopia didn't have museums or shit, but they have a number of government funded ones that are well maintained.
Last edited:
LMAO.
"Don't give back the stolen goods, can't trust them with their own things."
This makes it pretty clear this isn't the stereotypical case of Britain looting one of its 10 million colonies.
The looting/safety argument isn't actually relevant here, since the V&A said they would be willing to give it on a long term loan. If that's true, then they would trust the institution to hold the pieces for years on end, meaning that their facilities are up to the loaning institution's standards and the institution has suitable curatorial and security staff and policies. They aren't worried about corruption or looting or anything, it's just an issue of ownership and the validity/value of deaccessioning works within the museum's collections. At most large institutions acquisitions and deaccessions are handled by a committee of curators and registrars, however when objects are to be sold or repatriated, senior administration comes into play, which is always going to make it more complicated. Ultimately it comes down to repatriation being a slippery slope and senior staff not being interested in testing the waters to see how quickly more dominoes will fall. In order to move forward and see more objects be treated properly in this matter, the only way is going to be installing more minorities into senior museum staff and making social justice a core element of the institution's guiding principles, which thankfully is becoming increasingly common within the field.
Personally as much as I recognize the validity of the reason for most repatriation, I would still be reluctant to willingly sign away objects in the collection I work with, largely because a change to any part of your collection like this involves a shit ton of paperwork and difficult decisions. Managing a collection, the most important customer is the person who will manage the collection after you, and these situations have so many potential ways you can screw up and leave your future successor, or in this case, new owners in a bind. I'd do it, but I'd hate how stressful the process would be.
Personally as much as I recognize the validity of the reason for most repatriation, I would still be reluctant to willingly sign away objects in the collection I work with, largely because a change to any part of your collection like this involves a shit ton of paperwork and difficult decisions. Managing a collection, the most important customer is the person who will manage the collection after you, and these situations have so many potential ways you can screw up and leave your future successor, or in this case, new owners in a bind. I'd do it, but I'd hate how stressful the process would be.
lol.
Not surprised at these mindsets at all really. #Inherent.
Last edited:
By the way, where should the line be drawn? Should spoils of war taken by the Roman Empire 2,000 years ago be returned?
As has been pointed out by another poster, the victor's right to plunder after military conflict was accepted practice until very recently in human history.
As has been pointed out by another poster, the victor's right to plunder after military conflict was accepted practice until very recently in human history.
Romans left more than they took. In England for example they left London.
Right?
Resetera was like the one place on the Internet that didn't constantly lower my opinion on humanity. So much for that.
Here's a simple one that actually involves Ethiopia. If spoils of war need to be returned regardless of how, when, and where they were taken (which is an absolutely fair argument), then Ethiopia itself needs to abide by those rules and let the people of the Ogaden have their self determination. Britain should return the artifacts, and I don't believe that returning them should be on the condition that Ogaden be given independence. But the minute the artifacts go back, Ethiopia needs to give up their claim to the region (a claim made possible by conquest), and then answer for the numerous human rights violations and war crimes happening there right now (the rebels also on the latter point). You can't have it both ways Ethiopia. You can't both be a belligerent expansionist and also cry foul when bigger, nastier expansionists fuck you over.
I can understand why a government/monarchy might not want to give something like the koh-i-noor back, but artifacts in museums that were taken under nefarious means should go back to their country of origin. Egypt has been trying to get many of its artifacts back from international museums as well, so I definitely believe the Ethiopians should be able to do the same.
It's pretty embarrassing honestly. It's front to remain "impartial" but all it does is let the bullshit fester.
Lol Corruption. You clowns do realize there's a guy pilfering through the US Treasury and ripped through security budgets that lasted a president 8 years in a few months??
You do realize that right? You do realize that guy runs what used to be considered the shining beacon of the "Western" world?
Lol Corruption. There's corruption everywhere clowns, ESPECIALLY in your precious western societies
Sooo. Ethiopia shouldn't get back what's rightfully theirs, because all the paper work involved. That's a good reason. *rolls eyes*
And yet. Not a single warning or ban. Funny how that works, in'it.
Man they won't even return the Koh-i-Noor Diamond to the Sikhs/India. They badly chopped and cut it into a piece of shit for the Crown of the Empress and a country like India is about to surpass them economically and is already ahead militarily. What could Ethiopia do to get its heritage and artifacts back.
I'm not sure how corruption is a point in the first place. It's irrelevant. Give the shit back, if Ethiopia or whomever fucks up and they're lost, then they're lost. It's neither the UK's concern nor responsibility for stuff that's not theirs in the first place.
Actually it's really eye opening for me.. people been warned for lesser things but hey third world countries and corruption amirite
I never said that. If they have the proper storage solutions and security procedures, transferring the item is still within the realm of possibility. The museum's job is to minimize risk to the collections and ensure access to researchers. Moving the artifacts in this case would be downgrade all across the board.
Who said anything about benevolence? This is about conservation and ease of access for the viewing public.
Nah, he's simply trying to figure out what the freudian slip of "those countries" meant.
Viewing public but not for the folks of the country that they actually belong to? How bout someone go to your place beat you silly and decided to put your stuff in someone else house
You do know the museum in Ethiopia houses many important hominid fossils, including Lucy. So their ability to house and preserve things is not really in question
Uh no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that any transfer of ownership is expensive, time consuming, and fraught with potential issues which makes it a real pain to deal with. That's a primary reason why you don't see repatriation happen often, because doing the right thing is hard and overcoming institutional inertia requires either a great push from senior management or very very strong influence from lower curators and registrars. Collections management is usually stressful enough, adding responsibilities is not exactly appreciated, no matter how justified it may be
The problem is that although it was a Sikh who was the last to have it before Britain, the diamond was cut and owned by the Mughals. Then the Persians sacked the capital, looted the Mughal treasury, and then took the jewel out of India. It finally came into the possession of the Emir of Afghanistan who after being overthrown went to Lahore, and that's when his host (Ranjit Singh) requested it due to him sheltering the Emir. From there Ranjit Singh willed the diamond to a temple and then it was taken by Britain. So if you're Britain, who do you give this diamond to when there are competing claimants to it that are hostile to each other? Should it go to the Sikhs because they were the last to have it before Britain? Should it go to Afghanistan who can claim that the diamond was given up under duress? Or perhaps it should go to the descendants of the Mughals who would argue that the diamond is theirs, and the Persian theft of it doesn't mean they gave up ownership? And of course the Iranians claim it as well, since you know they first jacked it.
I don't think it's so simple. You can also think of these artifacts not only as Ethiopian heritage but also World heritage. That's why we are horrified when we see things like Baghdad museum being raided and ancient sites like Palmira or the giant Budas in Afghanistan be destroyed, and don't just go "Oh it's a Syrian/Afghan issue. Welp..."
I'm for artifacts to return to their place of origin, but let's not pretend their safe preservation isn't something to take into account.
What do you wish?
I don't think there was anything freudian about it. He made it pretty clear with that third world country nonsense. "Only "white" countries can be trusted to take care of artifacts."
You're really reading into this too much. It takes time to process this stuff. Time, money, and staff that museums typically don't have.
Great example of evil white colonialism right there. Literally no different from ISIS as user T'Challa Shakur put it.
- Status