People ganging up on Russia in this thread make me laugh. You REALLY think the US are better than Russia when it comes to Foreign policy ?
Literally nobody in this thread has suggested that
People ganging up on Russia in this thread make me laugh. You REALLY think the US are better than Russia when it comes to Foreign policy ?
I'm from France and we're the country of Human Rights, but when our ecomicals interests are at stake we says the F word to those human rights ! The World is not a fair place... It has never been and will never be, because as Hobbes said " Man is a wolf to man".
And the US has no intention of expanding right ? You're beyond naive.
This is not a World with "Good countries" vs "Bad countries". It's a World with "I can, so I do countries" and "the others"... That's how it works. Russia does it, because they can. And they know they can do so many things without being impacted. It's the same for the US, they do what they want because they can. And there is NOTHING we can do about it. It's been like that forever in human History.
Let's say the situation in Ukraine escalates. Does ANYBODY here truly believes Europe is going to ask US to enter in a war to defend Ukraine sovereignty ? It will NEVER happen ! The maximum we will get are sanctions agsinst Russia ( that will be very limited ).
The only course of action for Ukraine is negotiations. Because when you have a Superpower at your border, there isn't much you can do. And US and Europe will pressure Russia to make sure Ukraine has some gains. But NOBODY is going to send soldiers to help Ukraine... Can Canada and Mexico go against what the US want in trade negotiations ? NOPE. In the end the US get what they want because they are more powerful. Can the Palestinians do anything against Israel ? NOPE.
People ganging up on Russia in this thread make me laugh. You REALLY think the US are better than Russia when it comes to Foreign policy ? I'm from France and we're the country of Human Rights, but when our ecomicals interests are at stake we says the F word to those human rights ! The World is not a fair place... It has never been and will never be, because as Hobbes said " Man is a wolf to man".
In all fairness, both a sizable number of Frontists and a certain percentage of neo-68ers have an odd affection for Russia.Guys, they're in France, totally not Russia, but they really really like Russia.
"The Secretary General expressed NATO's full support for Ukraine's territorial integrity and sovereignty, including its full navigational rights in its territorial waters under international law," it said.
"At the request of President Poroshenko, the Secretary General agreed to convene an extraordinary meeting of the NATO-Ukraine Commission at Ambassadorial level in Brussels this afternoon to discuss the current situation."
Ideally NATO would send a rapid reaction force to Kiev as a show of force and make motions to send some warships to the area. Though the EU has an inability to react to crisis and the US has retreated from the world stage. We need stand for Ukrainian sovereignty, and force Russia to back down
Like Turkey after they shot down the Russian fighter? Or the US after they killed 100+ Russians in January?If you want turn Europe into a smoldering crater then I guess this is reasonable.
If you want turn Europe into a smoldering crater then I guess this is reasonable.
I sense something strange about this statementLike Turkey after they shot down the Russian fighter? Or the US after they killed 200+ Russians in January?
Putin is doing this because he won't get a reaction. Show force and they will back down, every time
Europe has had to fight to prevent totalitarian annexation on its eastern border, yes. Unless you think appeasement will work this time.
Lolno. What you 'ideally' want to do, if you had, as the Roma say, 'smanes', would be to find out which bank Putin holds most of his money in and fuck them up. That would both hurt him worse and make it harder for him to counter in an overt way, since he's been trying to keep the extent of his personal wealth relatively hidden.Ideally NATO would send a rapid reaction force to Kiev as a show of force and make motions to send some warships to the area.
Russia's actions over the past decades is living proof that we definitely still need NATO. They invaded Moldova in 1992, Georgia in 2008 and Ukraine in 2014. What more can you possibly need to see that all Russia's neighbors would be completely fucked without NATO? NATO dissolves and the Baltics and Poland would without a doubt go to war due to Russian intervention.It benefited Europe during the cold war. This is not the Cold War anymore and the NATO shouldn't even exist.
Again NATO is just a tool US uses when they can't get what they want in the UN. We don't have as Europeans finance and support with troops and logistics American neocons expansionism agenda.
Oh, like when a brigade of Russians and Yemen, decided to attack a us training post. And they knew the us was there and attacked it. And the us had airsupport and decimated the goons?.Like Turkey after they shot down the Russian fighter? Or the US after they killed 200+ Russians in January?
Putin is doing this because he won't get a reaction. Show force and they will back down, every time
Like Turkey after they shot down the Russian fighter? Or the US after they killed 100+ Russians in January?
Putin is doing this because he won't get a reaction. Show force and they will back down, every time
Yeah, but weren't those PMCs?Misremembered the numbers : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khasham
Point is still the same, even the threat of showing force is enough to get them to back down.
In before "Yeah but the US is just as bad!"Russia's actions over the past decades is living proof that we definitely still need NATO. They invaded Moldova in 1992, Georgia in 2008 and Ukraine in 2014. What more can you possibly need to see that all Russia's neighbors would be completely fucked without NATO? NATO dissolves and the Baltics and Poland would without a doubt go to war due to Russian intervention.
This wasn't a one off, Russian planes had been probing Turkish airspace and acting hostile to Turkish planes with armed military fighters for months, so much so Turkey requested additional NATO planes to patrol their airspace. When the Russian attack plane was shot down, these probes stopped.Turkey is a NATO member within airspace that is dangerous and conflicted.
It makes sense that those troops in Syria and Crimea were "mercenaries", but in this particular case we are debating right now is Ukraine dealing with the official military which therefore has no plausible deniability? Wasn't it the Russian Navy that fired at the Ukraine ship?Officially, yes.
In reality, not really.
Wagner Group, the PMC used in Syria and Ukraine, are in effect a branch of the Russian military that is used for deniability in conflicts and operations for obvious reasons. They are in effect, the Russian military.
It makes sense that those troops in Syria and Crimea were "mercenaries", but in this particular case we are debating right now is Ukraine dealing with the official military which therefore has no plausible deniability? Wasn't it the Russian Navy that fired at the Ukraine ship?
Would that make this whole scenario even more dangerous?
Yes Russia is aggressive, but this is just a reaction to American politics who has funded anti-Russian activites and political parties in countries around Russia for years.
People ganging up on Russia in this thread make me laugh. You REALLY think the US are better than Russia when it comes to Foreign policy ?
They don't care, they just like to add their two pennies on how awful Russia is.
Its the same way that most Americans believe Russia was the aggressor in the Cold War.
the US under Obama clearly meddled in what was happening in Ukraine and their elections. Obama's assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland handing out cookies to demonstrators in Kiev, encouraging protests, secretive behind the scenes calls as she decided who got to be president? Just imagine if Russian elected officials came to New York and encouraged protestors against a democratically elected president? Would people here be okay with that?
But Russian meddling in US elections? Oh no! The evil Russians need to be punished!
This is a western/American pro-NATO, centrist forum where war criminals and war hawks like Obama and Hillary are praised and supported and where Russia will always be the boogeyman. You can make all the posts you want on this, it's not going to make a difference. Don't waste your time. Anything you say , will be shrugged aside as 'whataboutism'.
This, and from what I gathered why should we defend a country full of neo nazi.
"Something-something terrorism" [completely evading the fact that Chechen terrorism was a result of the wars]It's funny how Russia is fully supporting separatism in Crimea, South-East Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, but, at the same time they didn't allow Chechen Republic of Ichkeria to obtain independence.
<picture removed for compactness>
^ this is Grozny in 1996
also, there's a good reason why Russia is called as the Prison of Nations since 19th century
No, but the US (and Russia) did promise to keep the country safe in exchange for it giving up its nuclear weapons.
Don't waste your time. Anything you say , will be shrugged aside as 'whataboutism'.
Russia firing on these boats in this territorial conflict was bad. I am not sure how much Europe/US can do though.
The pro-Russian stooge posts are so feeble-minded, so self-evidently wrong to anyone with even a cursory knowledge of events that I'd have more respect for them if they were being paid to troll rather than sincerely believing that drivel.
no, I think your mistaken.I didn't say I supported Russia, just I have an issue with western view on the events around the cold war, the bias evident in the retelling of the history is clear for all and leads to the average American believing they are the good guys and the Russian bad.
The truth is, they are both up to their necks in heinous acts ... not one of them holds the moral high ground.
Try and converse in this forum with a degree of maturity and save your insults for elsewhere.
no, I think your mistaken.
you're attempting to use whataboutism to shift the topic off of recent russian aggression. or, thats the way im perceiving it.
Attempting to portray the Ukrainians as a credible and equal-sized threat to the Russians is as idiotic as attempting to portray Palestinians as a credible and equal-sized threat to the Israelis.As per the subject at hand, in what amounts to a regional conflict with a lot of bad blood between the protagonists ... I am not sure of the answer.
More financial punishment is not going to work and the West would be stupid to get involved, they never make anywhere better, just worse.
I'm surprised it took this long for Russia to escalate honestly. Congress gonna pass new sanctions and Trump is either not gonna sign or not enforce and Republicans will say it's weak Obama's fault.
Attempting to portray the Ukrainians as a credible and equal-sized threat to the Russians is as idiotic as attempting to portray Palestinians as a credible and equal-sized threat to the Israelis.
The pro-Russian stooge posts are so feeble-minded, so self-evidently wrong to anyone with even a cursory knowledge of events that I'd have more respect for them if they were being paid to troll rather than sincerely believing that drivel.
Who said they were equal sized? I made no reference to the equality (or inequality) of the opposing sides.
It's obvious and requires no reference.
The wording is pretty clear. It makes it seem like it's some sort of localized squabble, say, like Chile versus Peru (hypothetically). It's rather obvious weasel-wording.As per the subject at hand, in what amounts to a regional conflict with a lot of bad blood between the protagonists ... I am not sure of the answer.
Oh, look, the other standard approach. Accusing your opponent of unreasonableness. Wow, that bingo card keeps getting filled more and more. Ironically, accusing your opponent of being 'illogical', 'unreasonable', 'agitated', etc. is a favourite alt-right move.Why are you being aggressive? Can you not make a point in a reasonable tone?
Yes that's the thing. They're quick to condemn Russia, but they rather turn a blind eye to the bad things America does. And trust me, the US is behind the scenes with Ukraine, but it's more convenient here to IGNORE that fact...
What is happening in Yemen is an abomination. And the World just took notice of that massacre because a poor man was cut to pieces in its own consulate in Turkey.
As per the subject at hand, in what amounts to a regional conflict with a lot of bad blood between the protagonists ... I am not sure of the answer.
yup, anyone who opposes military intervention by the US is a pussy with weak moralsI'll just explain this to all of my Ukrainian friends, that will make it all go away.
The worst thing is that the Noam Chomskys of the world will use this exact reasoning to say we shouldn't be concerned for the people of Ukraine at all. And people will listen because cowardly moral relativism helps them sleep at night.
It absolutely disgusts me that European politicians will keep playing nice with Russia. Russia is a hostile state who've been expanding their borders and influence in Europe through force since 1992, it's time to sanction them to the point that their economy collapses. Russia invaded Transnistria (Moldovan region) in 1992 and nobody did anything. Russia invaded Georgia and partitioned the country in 2008 and once again we did nothing. Russia invaded Ukraine and became the first European country since WW2 to annex another European countries territory with military means, shot down a civilian airliner and continues to kill Ukrainian soldier on an almost daily basis and besides some basic sanctions and military support we once again did fuck all.
All these politicians and countries who keep demanding that Russia fucks off should fuck off themselves. Actually do something about it or just shut the fuck up, they're only making a fool out of themselves.
I will. Russia is way worse on foreign policy than the US. Having said that, it doesn't mean the US is some shining beacon of purity. Just less bad.
I will. Russia is way worse on foreign policy than the US. Having said that, it doesn't mean the US is some shining beacon of purity. Just less bad.