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Russian Navy opens fire on Ukrainian Ships in the Black Sea
- Thread starter Kodama4
- Start date
I'll just explain this to all of my Ukrainian friends, that will make it all go away.
The worst thing is that the Noam Chomskys of the world will use this exact reasoning to say we shouldn't be concerned for the people of Ukraine at all. And people will listen because cowardly moral relativism helps them sleep at night.
In all fairness, both a sizable number of Frontists and a certain percentage of neo-68ers have an odd affection for Russia.
Ideally NATO would send a rapid reaction force to Kiev as a show of force and make motions to send some warships to the area. Though the EU has an inability to react to crisis and the US has retreated from the world stage. We need stand for Ukrainian sovereignty, and force Russia to back down
If you want turn Europe into a smoldering crater then I guess this is reasonable.
Like Turkey after they shot down the Russian fighter? Or the US after they killed 100+ Russians in January?
Putin is doing this because he won't get a reaction. Show force and they will back down, every time
Europe has had to fight to prevent totalitarian annexation on its eastern border, yes. Unless you think appeasement will work this time.
NATO is not Europe, using NATO as a counter response to Russian aggression with a non-NATO nation is a clear escalation that has major potential consequences that have potential dire outcomes.
Lolno. What you 'ideally' want to do, if you had, as the Roma say, 'smanes', would be to find out which bank Putin holds most of his money in and fuck them up. That would both hurt him worse and make it harder for him to counter in an overt way, since he's been trying to keep the extent of his personal wealth relatively hidden.
Russia's actions over the past decades is living proof that we definitely still need NATO. They invaded Moldova in 1992, Georgia in 2008 and Ukraine in 2014. What more can you possibly need to see that all Russia's neighbors would be completely fucked without NATO? NATO dissolves and the Baltics and Poland would without a doubt go to war due to Russian intervention.
Oh, like when a brigade of Russians and Yemen, decided to attack a us training post. And they knew the us was there and attacked it. And the us had airsupport and decimated the goons?.
Oh and the us made it a point to let the armored column of ruskies start to fire on them first.
Misremembered the numbers : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khasham
Point is still the same, even the threat of showing force is enough to get them to back down.
Turkey is a NATO member within airspace that is dangerous and conflicted.
Russia used "mercs" in Syria and they got killed on a fucked up mission.
These are completely different from clear and unequivocal western/NATO military escalation in a conflict they have no direct part of.
Officially, yes.
In reality, not really.
Wagner Group, the PMC used in Syria and Ukraine, are in effect a branch of the Russian military that is used for deniability in conflicts and operations for obvious reasons.
"Private" as in Putin aligned oligarchs using Russian soldiers who also participated in Ukraine.
This wasn't a one off, Russian planes had been probing Turkish airspace and acting hostile to Turkish planes with armed military fighters for months, so much so Turkey requested additional NATO planes to patrol their airspace. When the Russian attack plane was shot down, these probes stopped.
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It makes sense that those troops in Syria and Crimea were "mercenaries", but in this particular case we are debating right now is Ukraine dealing with the official military which therefore has no plausible deniability? Wasn't it the Russian Navy that fired at the Ukraine ship?
Would that make this whole scenario even more dangerous?
Yes. Not that I think anything drastic is going to come from this, but regardless if this event transpired or not, sending NATO forces into Ukraine has, like, one good outcome vs. a dozen potential cluster fucks ranging on the global scale.
There is a reason NATO didn't go into Ukraine when it was obvious Russia invaded it and are currently at war with them, it's nowhere near worth the risk to go on the offensive for a non-NATO member.
It's funny how Russia is fully supporting separatism in Crimea, South-East Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, but, at the same time they didn't allow Chechen Republic of Ichkeria to obtain independence.
^ this is Grozny in 1996
also, there's a good reason why Russia is called as the Prison of Nations since 19th century
^ this is Grozny in 1996
also, there's a good reason why Russia is called as the Prison of Nations since 19th century
The pro-Russian stooge posts are so feeble-minded, so self-evidently wrong to anyone with even a cursory knowledge of events that I'd have more respect for them if they were being paid to troll rather than sincerely believing that drivel.
He's preparing a statement in support of poor aggrieved Russia as we speak.
"Something-something terrorism" [completely evading the fact that Chechen terrorism was a result of the wars]
Truth is, Russians have never seen the North-Caucasians as anything other than inbred savages. Thus their treatment of Chechens, Ingush et al. throughout history.
Bringing up another bad thing done by someone else and distracting from or excusing the bad thing at hand is literally whataboutism.
Focus or take your own advice and leave.
I didn't say I supported Russia, just I have an issue with western view on the events around the cold war, the bias evident in the retelling of the history is clear for all and leads to the average American believing they are the good guys and the Russian bad.
The truth is, they are both up to their necks in heinous acts ... not one of them holds the moral high ground.
Try and converse in this forum with a degree of maturity and save your insults for elsewhere.
no, I think your mistaken.
you're attempting to use whataboutism to shift the topic off of recent russian aggression. or, thats the way im perceiving it.
That's what you are perceiving, I was replying to another post in this thread and not directly to the matter discussed in the OP.
I have no interest in diverting attention, I have only made followup statements in response to others.
As per the subject at hand, in what amounts to a regional conflict with a lot of bad blood between the protagonists ... I am not sure of the answer.
More financial punishment is not going to work and the West would be stupid to get involved, they never make anywhere better, just worse.
Attempting to portray the Ukrainians as a credible and equal-sized threat to the Russians is as idiotic as attempting to portray Palestinians as a credible and equal-sized threat to the Israelis.
Little surprise this is with the Brexit announcements happening and nearing the end of the lame duck term in the US Congress before a change in government. Their best moment to try to stop Ukraine from progressing
Who said they were equal sized? I made no reference to the equality (or inequality) of the opposing sides.
It's obvious and requires no reference.
Why are you being aggressive? Can you not make a point in a reasonable tone?
These threads always bring out some Putin apologist out of the woodwork.
The wording is pretty clear. It makes it seem like it's some sort of localized squabble, say, like Chile versus Peru (hypothetically). It's rather obvious weasel-wording.
Unless of course English isn't your main language, in which case I'd recommend you use simpler sentences.
Oh, look, the other standard approach. Accusing your opponent of unreasonableness. Wow, that bingo card keeps getting filled more and more. Ironically, accusing your opponent of being 'illogical', 'unreasonable', 'agitated', etc. is a favourite alt-right move.
What bad things has the US done behind the scenes in Ukraine? Why haven't you actually brought those things up to discuss instead of this "Russia ain't so bad" whataboutism dog and pony show?
You should create a thread about the US's involvement in Yemen's civil war.
You are absolving Russia of responsibility for this latest flare-up by portraying the conflict as the inevitable result of 2 bad actors that no one could have staved off. Russia is clearly the aggressor. There is no "past history" that could justify such a move.
I'll be sure to bring this up to my Russian step mother (I won't). She'll jump through mental hoops to defend them.
User warned: personal attack
People who don't have Zatoichi on ignore disgust me
Hard to argue on that one. Sadly.
Hard to argue on that one. Sadly.
yup, anyone who opposes military intervention by the US is a pussy with weak morals
"Obama had a chance to do something, and did nothing. OBAMA!"
"Maybe they did block the port, maybe they didn't?"
"The port was being blocked by both sides".
The opportunity to confront Russia directly be it military or otherwise ended in 1953 when they obtained nuclear weapons.
At this point the NATO or EU or US can do fuck all without provoking a bigger conflict.
I will. Russia is way worse on foreign policy than the US. Having said that, it doesn't mean the US is some shining beacon of purity. Just less bad.
I think that goes without saying. It is always weird when people think Americans ignore their own nation's shortcomings. Especially given how divided and charges political conversations are. My family are immigrants from a country exploited by Americans and Europeans, so we definitely don't give the U.S. a pass. There is a reason we chose to move here, and not elsewhere.