I was gonna say. She-Ra seemed to be all about some pretty good lgbtq relationships. Glad you called it out.
Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."
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If you want to know more about Yoko Taro's views on female characters:
"But the biggest reason is I just really like girls" when asked why a combat android 10,000 years into the future wears high heels.
He has stated his dislike for the "plain and forgettable" type of female video game character: he demonstrated his dislike for this and the stereotypical role-playing video game romance in Furiae, an important character in Drakengard.[8] Another character he has been greatly involved in creating is Zero, Drakengard 3's protagonist: while creating her, he felt it would be interesting to create a character who was formerly a prostitute as it was a character type that was fairly rare in video games.[26]
"Heat sink" lore explanation for female costumes, while male characters don't receive same treatment.
Excuse me, I have to fall on the floor and laugh maniacally.
The more I think about it, the more I wonder what modern design has done for jRPGs, and honestly, I guess the answer is - worse in every way.
Why is video game art (especially for jRPGs) so goddamn generic these days? That's really what bothers me. I look at modern, well-known game artists and this always seems to be the progression. I can't help but feel game art (especially for characters) has really gone south. If I had to guess (after looking at some of these artists), aside from the heavy influence of anime on the designs, it's also a color thing, it seems to me. More artists in video games are spending more time on creating striking colors, but the actual designs of the characters themselves are uninspired. There's little visual difference between faces, poses, silhouette, body types...
Why is video game art (especially for jRPGs) so goddamn generic these days? That's really what bothers me. I look at modern, well-known game artists and this always seems to be the progression. I can't help but feel game art (especially for characters) has really gone south. If I had to guess (after looking at some of these artists), aside from the heavy influence of anime on the designs, it's also a color thing, it seems to me. More artists in video games are spending more time on creating striking colors, but the actual designs of the characters themselves are uninspired. There's little visual difference between faces, poses, silhouette, body types...
I think that the biggest changes is that a lot of the modern work doesn't care about design language any more. These designs are more meant to communicate character archetype instead of communicating personality. Newer designs will add a lot of extra detail but I find that it often either just breaks up the silhouettes or muddling who the character is supposed to be. And I think that these artists don't care that these are problems so else it wouldn't have become the standard.The more I think about it, the more I wonder what modern design has done for jRPGs, and honestly, I guess the answer is - worse in every way.
Why is video game art (especially for jRPGs) so goddamn generic these days? That's really what bothers me. I look at modern, well-known game artists and this always seems to be the progression. I can't help but feel game art (especially for characters) has really gone south. If I had to guess (after looking at some of these artists), aside from the heavy influence of anime on the designs, it's also a color thing, it seems to me. More artists in video games are spending more time on creating striking colors, but the actual designs of the characters themselves are uninspired. There's little visual difference between faces, poses, silhouette, body types...
Say what you want about Nier: Automata, but it does a good job of creating memorable characters using relatively simple designs. Honestly Japanese designs would be a lot better (and more readable) if they took more cues from this game.
The original Lufia designs are pretty generic for their day, I'd say. They wouldn't look out of place on, say, the cover to a Guin Saga novel. More simplistic, anime-esque designs are easier to market - and merchandise, I imagine. I'd say "disposable", even?The more I think about it, the more I wonder what modern design has done for jRPGs, and honestly, I guess the answer is - worse in every way.
Why is video game art (especially for jRPGs) so goddamn generic these days? That's really what bothers me. I look at modern, well-known game artists and this always seems to be the progression. I can't help but feel game art (especially for characters) has really gone south. If I had to guess (after looking at some of these artists), aside from the heavy influence of anime on the designs, it's also a color thing, it seems to me. More artists in video games are spending more time on creating striking colors, but the actual designs of the characters themselves are uninspired. There's little visual difference between faces, poses, silhouette, body types...
IDK. Feels like we've been round this specific topic a thousand times already XD
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Agreed, we almost assuredly have, but I don't think it's something that's just happened in Japan. I think there's been a generic grimdark vibe that's continued to become more pointed in Western design as well, to the point of parody, honestly. And yes, disposable is probably the language I would use. Designs are much more "assembly line ready" than, "this character needs a strong silhouette and a clear sense of purpose in design."
So, my initial post wasn't actually about Nier Automata, I don't think it's an RPG, and I find that the most visually offensive / generic games these days to widely be jRPGs.
The problem with the designs, aside from the fundamental sexism and objectification, is that they aren't memorable. 2B and A2 are memorable characters because of everything other than their design. Their design is nonsensical in the context of the game they're in, but the reason they're remembered has everything to do with their personality, combined with writing and world-building. Crono in Chrono Trigger has literally zero lines in the entire game and continues to endure as a memorable character entirely because of his design. It has a strong silhouette and a unique visual brought to life by Akira Toriyama, one that screams protagonist. The same could never be said of 2B or A2. They are memorable for everything other than their design. And the thing is-I don't even dislike Yoshida Akihiko's work. He did some great stuff in Final Fantasy Tactics and Vagrant Story. But I just find his Nier Automata work... uninspired.
13 sentinels: aegis rim
I like it but wow, it already failed at the Bechdel test at the first few minutes of the game. After an hour the ladies do get into other conversation that not only more interesting to their lives but are more mature about relationships. Yeah, these are young characters navigating their feelings and aren't going to be perfect reactions but they go into the anime tropes too quickly. Last they really didn't need to be naked in the mechs when they had characters be fully clothed go into one.
I like it but wow, it already failed at the Bechdel test at the first few minutes of the game. After an hour the ladies do get into other conversation that not only more interesting to their lives but are more mature about relationships. Yeah, these are young characters navigating their feelings and aren't going to be perfect reactions but they go into the anime tropes too quickly. Last they really didn't need to be naked in the mechs when they had characters be fully clothed go into one.
I dunno, I never agree when people say this. I found the character designs super likeable immediately.
Yeah, I don't agree with Automata's designs being unmemorable either (well A2 is kind of eh to me but even still). Ignoring the problematic elements surrounding the designs themselves, 2B's design is pretty cool imo and her design stood out to me before even playing the game.
yeah, I think a lot of designs are just immediately likeable to a lot of people. Nintendo and Blizzard appear to understand the secret sauce better than anyone else. Some of those elements are likely problematic, but only improving designs over time will address that.
I've been wondering if the push towards digital art has had an effect in some way. JRPGs especially use a lot of their art in the actual game now, so it needs to be cohesive with the graphics/models. It's also easier to pump out dozens of portrait variations when all you have to do is edit the eyeball layer in Photoshop, especially if the art is heavily simplified to begin with.
It's also easier to adapt art for various uses when it's a bunch of layered elements, instead of an intricate 20"x30" Ayami Kojima canvas XD
I actually don't think it's because of digital art, because I know for a fact that many games around about the SNES era, a lot of that art is actually digital. A fair amount isn't, but by the time of the PSX, a good 80% of the art for video games was digital, with a few notable exceptions. I agree with the sentiment that it's because simpler art is easier to modify and rework.
From a promotional perspective, it's far easier to change or modify much simpler art for purposes of presentation. I have seen working files of Soejima's art for Persona 3 and 4 and it's literally just a series of the same image with eyes and brows, etc. in different configurations. That stuff didn't start happening commonly until around the PS2 era, when Photoshop, especially in jRPGs, grew a much stronger hold in the market. Clip Studio has also introduced a lot of 3D options into the mix, and that's got its own problem with regards to making art that actually looks unique and not mass produced.
I think this title is really telling for what video games are now: Environment Art Isn't About Making Pretty Things
I just really fundamentally disagree with such a sentiment, even considering the sentiment he would replace it with. Game art is just business now, and that's kind of the problem. And I promise you, anime girls with big tits are also just business too. But again, that's also the problem. Monetizing objectification.
And of course, stuff like this:
These videos depress the hell out of me, because it's basically concept artists telling other concept artists, "You need to be an assembly line, not an artist." And ultimately, that shows in the work. The stuff he thinks is so cool is now itself generic because they've spent so much time promoting it as the way to do it (and more seriously, it's also because it has become the only artists they hire - so of course artists kowtow to it because they have to eat and live like everyone else). It's the grimdark future where all is grimdark with grimdarkiness. Oh other styles? Gotta grimdark that too. At one point it had texture, but it hasn't evolved in over a decade - and so the style of games, especially in big studios, has languished greatly. This isn't as much the case in smaller studios, but even smaller studios ARE influenced by it. And the same thing has happened in Asia, but instead of grimdark it's pop-fantasy. Even heavily sci-fi universes like PSO or Xenoblade have continually become more pop-fantasy as time has moved forward. Because it's about churning that shit out. And if that's all there is, you're not really an industry that creates art anymore, are you? You're just an industry. Same FPS, different year.
This is also why I think almost all games now are more like food snacks or toys than artistic works. They may have artisanship in them, but they are ultimately products rather than explorations.
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Yuki's route is the best in terms of her plot not completely revolving around a man but the bar is pretty low for the game.
I remember reading a bunch of Era members saying the being naked in mechs thing had lore reasons but now I hear there are clothed kids in the mechs?
The lore reasons actually make a lot of sense, but why the portraits aren't just zoomed in on their face/necks makes it kind of irrelevant. It could have been done more tastefully for sure, but I really don't think it's that bad, personally. It's a fair criticism. The only time you see characters in the mech-like portraits with clothes are when they aren't piloting them.
I think the game is very good and its actually not as problematic as most JRPGs, so I wish they would have gone further to reduce that type of content. Sucks so many people won't play it when it's an incredibly unique experience.
To be clear, due to Vanillaware's overall output, I don't blame those people, it's just a bummer.
This reminds of what happened to the comic industry in the 80s and 90s, especially post Rob Liefeld, so many comics were pretty made to look the same regardless of artist because it was just expected (grimdark, gun happy, massive muscled men and highly sexualized women and oddly a lack of actual eyes), losing much uniqueness in the process which was fuelled by the speculator boom, over-inflation of comic book prices and poor simple greed that only ended when Marvel went bankrupt and took most of the industry with it to the point the comic industry never truly recovered.
Yeah, Disney, Marvel, and now Pixar, have had a huge influence on the art world, especially in America and Europe. Additionally, since Warner dropped out and Disney basically cornered the market, the style hasn't evolved much. Aladdin is still the gold standard and it hasn't really gotten better from that point. I think the same could be said with Call of Duty and World of Warcraft. Those games have had so much influence that every game is trying mimic those beats in everything they create. You see this in stuff like Assassin's Creed, or, well, most Ubisoft products. Far Cry 2 was the only game that really deviated from that, and they have never replicated it again.
In Japan, meanwhile, I don't really know where I'd say the locus is for their game art. It's clearly heavily influenced by anime, but I have a hard time pinpointing the stuff that became what everyone else was copying. The 80s and 90s had a ton of really unique things come out from Japan and Korea, but there wasn't really a unified visual style until around the PS2 era (Grandia, Lufia, Phantasy Star, Secret of Mana, War of Genesis and Final Fantasy don't really have a lot of consistent visual threads - the concept art for each during the 90s is very different). PS2 really seems to me where things started (and I say started because it wasn't really until the PS3 era where that stuff seems to have become codified, rather than just preferential) to become very generic with regards to designs.
Soejima introduced a heavily anime-driven visual style in Persona, which had a much simpler visual style, focusing heavily on primary colors, (the protagonist is the Blue one, Mitsuru is the red one, Yukari is the pink one, etc.) rather than on silhouettes and strong lines. And this became (and still is) very much the norm for anime games. Strong colors and high contrast, but much simpler and less visually interesting designs (as others have said, probably to save time / money / rendering). You see this especially in mobile and gacha games, but also in stuff like the Fate series (Rin is the red one, Rider is purple, etc.). Put another way, the thing that's iconic about Ness from Earthbound is his shirt and hat, and even though it's also a high contrast design, it's a design with a strong silhouette, much like Mr. Saturn or Starmen.
I guess thinking about it... it might have been Pokemon? Which would sort of indicate that it was Nintendo that ultimately became the locus for game art in Japan, but the art coming out of Nintendo clearly didn't have as much of an anime style as many other studios post-N64, so it's hard for me to figure. And anime at the time (80s and 90s) also had much more human features, rather than the heavily exaggerated faces in anime or Japanese games today. Anime was more of a cross-between, rather than a direct line. It seems like video games probably didn't have the visual resources for this, so they simplified to get something that appeared expressive enough despite the low fidelity. But I guess that practice never really evolved once they had more resources, probably because it was easier / cheaper. Even so, it doesn't really excuse it. If you have the tools you should push those tools, as video games did in the past with their visuals. And while video games today push their visuals, they don't push them in the same way. It is a much more technological, rather than artistic innovation that seems to be the focus (maybe because the audiences were more interested in that then than they are now, given the broad success of very generic visual styles).
That said, I don't think the sexism and objectification ever left, rather it has just gotten worse in Asia as time has gone on. Stuff like Destiny Child, Azur Lane, and the Fate series are just... visually offensive. In the past, I might have thought they were attempting to be comical due to how ridiculous the designs are, but it's clear they want to be taken seriously. It goes beyond being bad and is just in the realm of lazy fanservice with no purpose (well, no visual or narrative purpose at least - it's just because they're trying to sell product to horny teenagers - and adults that never moved past that).
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"Follow the leader" effect seems to be so much more of a cancer in the comic industry (including manga) than in almost every other industry. In e.g. action movies, yeah, you can point at Matrix and how everyone and their dog started to include slow motion / bullet time for absolutely no reason, but copying a successful author or trend seems have been the normal mode of operation of superhero comics for decades.
It's particularly funny because as superhero comics just now start becoming a bit more varied in style and themes, manga and anime is probably at its very worst in terms of recursive self-copying.
(sorry for the non-videogamey tangent, Morrigan. :) ).
I was disappointed with Iori seeing as shes like the flagship character, has a nendoroid, a 15in figure, and has the most fan art but despite that i found her to be the worst female character by a pretty wide margin. Doesn't help that her and her love interest have chemistry rivaling Sasuke and Sakura, I guess im saying for her being plastered everywhere(for what little fanfare this game gets) i found her to be completely unremarkable.
13 Sentinels teasing Iori being bi (and having some attraction to Yuki) pissed me off, especially tied to that cis/heteronormative bullshit ending.
Yuki and Hijiyama carried the game for me but man parts of how Hijiyama was handled left a bad taste in my mouth, especially how they left him off in his romance situation compared to the rest of the cast.
It baffles me that in 5 years, or whatever the time skip is for the epilogue, Hijiyama still hasn't come to terms with himself and loving Tsukasa. I don't know what's in the Japanese script but the localization paints them being in a relationship but Hijiyama won't admit it, in public at least.
The line at the end where Okino teases that they can change "whats under the skirt"(i dont remember how exactly it was worded) and hijiyama seems relieved, completely rubbed me the wrong way because it made it seem like it made him happy that he had a choice that can still classify him as heterosexual when i saw him as anything but throughout the entire story
That's not how I read the scene. Hijiyama's absolutely flustered when Okino implies they changed their body in the sim to replicate a cis woman's. Okino offers him a chance to check their body out, and that's when he completely loses his composure and calls them a cad (which is traditionally a term aimed at men) and, depending on your interpretation, says their body isn't an issue. Rewatching the scene, I think they've been physically intimate outside the sim and Hijiyama became fine with Okino's body. Okino exploring themselves in the sim just goes into territory he doesn't understand. If anything, I think the prospect of him being able to classify himself as straight (while viewing gender through an adapting mid twentieth century mindset) just makes him even more confused about himself.
Not sure if it's been discussed already but this design from Bloodstained Curse of the Moon 2 is... NOT GOOD.
I brought it up very briefly, but I brought it up specifically talking about how "the reason old games feel like they objectify women less is just because the graphics were worse.", and then I posted the way Dominique looks in game versus the way the designers imagine her looking.
Which to be clear I do understand curse of the moon 2 is a new game, but given it is going after that old nes look, I thought it was relevant for that.
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Not sure if it's been discussed already but this design from Bloodstained Curse of the Moon 2 is... NOT GOOD.
I didn't know fighting demons gave you bigger boobs. So that's what I've been doing wrong. 👀
Queer baiting can be a real pain.
I do like the Natsuno x Yuki energy and Tomi has been a pretty forward character, never submitting to bs.
Megumi motivation is pretty weak and one dimensional. Ryouko is in a similar situation but has some complications that at least add to it.
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That's a real shame. I'd been pretty tentatively interested in 13 sentinels kind of... pending reactions from you and others in this thread.
Okay I just have a bad memory then, Watching again I just forgot how the scene played out verbatim but seeing again with your interpretation clears some things up. Though I am also interested in what the clear intent was from the Japanese script too.
It very tough if the Japan's side of the studio don't communicate clear enough with the localization team and differences with how one teams views on topics of gender.
SWERY did well with JJ's gender reveal but tripped over with doing a dead name with DP2
In some sense Japan is in a moment of catch up with queerness in some areas.
Edit: OMG Iori is such a protag in the trope anime sense from attracting male characters to how simple her moments are.
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Just two ads screenshots taken recently.
« I am a helpless deer with my stilettos on ice and a mace that I cannot hold on correctly *wink* »
and
« I am wearing an armor as useful for melee fighting as a corset in a battleground. »
« I am a helpless deer with my stilettos on ice and a mace that I cannot hold on correctly *wink* »
and
« I am wearing an armor as useful for melee fighting as a corset in a battleground. »
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It's only one scene in the whole game, there are bigger issues. The biggest yuri tease between two characters gets "no homo"d in an eye rolling sci-fi fashion. That said, the game's bigger issues are really a story that's a bit half-baked in some regards, since the script was cut in half, the unnecessary fanservice, and how cis/heteronormative the game is overshadowing the few queer elements.
Does it count if theyre well written but their design directly contradicts the stories and personalities of the women?
I.E. Ivy in soul calibur default outfits that don't fit her background at all
Reminds me how the female lead in Blaster Master Zero 2 gets corrupted and for no apparent reason gets bigger breasts and in the ending after being cured they stay the same size
You're talking about a game that gave a flower pot literal watermelon titties...
I believe it might have been Neon Genesis Evangelion, which coincidentally aired around the time FFVII impacted the scene too, thus a double-hit combo.
It did revitalize the anime industry in a way Super Mario Bros did for gaming, it made cosplay worldwidely popular, its character archetypes are pretty much omnipresent and every character has a recognizable color palette through their uniforms. It's also no wonder that protagonists with self-doubt became so common after Shinji and deconstructive existential mindfuck became more commonplace. Hell, not even FFVII escaped it as seen by FFVIIRemake.
Xeno's sci-fi elements and elaborate mecha designs, Shin Megami Tensei's abstract-ass designs for some of its monsters, Persona's teenage drama and angsty, yet paradoxically embraced sexualization, etc.
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We need a She-re game or a game with the feel of she-re.WATCH SHE-RA
When was the last time they bothered making a video game for a franchise primarily aimed at young girls, which wasn't mobile-only and based around matching coloured shapes?
The more I think about it, the more I wonder what modern design has done for jRPGs, and honestly, I guess the answer is - worse in every way.
Why is video game art (especially for jRPGs) so goddamn generic these days? That's really what bothers me. I look at modern, well-known game artists and this always seems to be the progression. I can't help but feel game art (especially for characters) has really gone south. If I had to guess (after looking at some of these artists), aside from the heavy influence of anime on the designs, it's also a color thing, it seems to me. More artists in video games are spending more time on creating striking colors, but the actual designs of the characters themselves are uninspired. There's little visual difference between faces, poses, silhouette, body types...
I actually liked Tia's redesign from "sad girly who didnt get the guy" to one with chains, traps, and creepy dolls in a briefcase (and a nice big smile!). Not as keen on the rest (well, besides the artwork being done by what seems like a more talented artist), but I did like the dumb one getting pink hair. We need more guys unafraid to go pink! x)
...argh I hate to say it, but that was a great video with some good tips and pointers. :/ I kinda think you took some of the wrong lessons from the video IMO.
Skill is important, but speed is such a big deal (one of the best practice methods is to do your 20x 1 minute figure drawings). You really can't afford to spend DAYS at a time mulling hours and hours over perspective and design and details on EVERYTHING, especially for concept art where it really won't be seen in any place other than a dev studio and a future artbook (so criticizing concept art for being "quickly done" feels like a strange hill to stand on; but I guess it really depends on what the art is for). People have their limits, and 3D is undoubtedly the future of certain parts of digital artistry; this is sort of just the "evolution" of using real human references or snapping pictures -- but now 3D offers a lot more control. Skill is 100% important, but 3D as a tool is totally invaluable (a small example: I love using a generic 3D skull just to ensure capturing proper proportions of the head/face as the head twists and turns; it's like 5x faster than figuring that out on my own and I still tend to overlay "cartoony proportions" where/when needed). I didn't care what they were drawing in the video (NA studios tend to be less creative for more grounded while Japanese titles almost go the other way completely IMO), but he's got a point about using certain tools to do better work.
I'm not really sure how you're relating this to the Persona art now do I know what you're really trying to say. I mean, Soejima and MANY artists suffer from staying in their comfort zones and giving "same face" (they find that an "ideal look" and tend to keep at it). But also don't forget it's really a process between artist and project director's who approve designs. The Persona artbooks will definitely confirm most characters had radically different design ideas at first (just look at all these "attempts" for Atelier characters) That said, while I was inspired my anime art early on, I've always hated stuff like "dot noses" and simple "line eyebrows" (there's no personality in those!! Eugene Levy has at least 10....no, 20% of his career thanks to those brows! xD ). I'm not sure what "mass produced art" truly means; most art still takes a lot of work....
The thing you said about colour and simpler designs is... more about design philosophy IMO. Some game's go all out on complicated designs, but not all of them really have to. But other game restrictions too; simpler rendering is one thing (we had a few gens of basic hairdos because animating long 3D hair or various complicated/chunky non-clipping objects is a nightmare) but also for easier recognition. Take Xenoblade 2 (sorry, I know). The character colouring works beautifully against the game's huge environments to make them stand out easily from afar. I think the colouring is a ""bad habit" from decades of power rangers media :P , but it does look visually pleasant and makes characters very distinctive.
...But of course art is a business; most artists can't afford to treat it otherwise all the time. It's a sad truth of most art that only a few lucky folk are strictly drawing the exact things they want.
(...if Im wrong about anything here please tell me, I'm sick, my head feel like shit, and I'm...still posting here cuz im bored lol)
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