yeah! it's a huge issue. Disney shouldn't be able to own xmen or fox for that matter. it's actually a very serious problem.
Sony Made A 'Tragic Mistake' Taking Spider-Man Out Of The MCU, Joe Russo Says
- Thread starter BringBackSonics
- Start date
Today I learn that people think that it's bad that companies have the right to control how their IP is used. Got it.
I mean, awards don't really mean much but yeah it won for best animated feature against two movies hardly anyone who voted would have seen, one very underwhelming sequel (Incredibles 2) and one that had most of its best parts in the trailers (Wreck It Ralph 2). It was a great animated movie, I would even agree it's probably the best Spider-Man movie but comparing an animated movie that had a relatively modest budget even of a major animated feature these days to a much, to a live action film that would have several times the financial investment put into it is not a good comparison. People at Sony who were relatively hands off with Into the Spider-Verse are almost certain to not be with live action Spider-Man movies as we've repeatedly seen in the past. Never mind those people are probably going to be butting into the creative process for ISV's sequel as well.
Avi Arad is probably going to come back into greater control with Fiege out, we'll see if he and especially Rothman have actually learned anything.
SM3 and ASM 2 are big fuck ups. Venom did well, but that movie was trash imo. Sony movies can do well when they let the directors do their thing, but that's not always the case. They're trying to make a universe of films about Spider-Man characters. I don't see them being hands off, which means a fuck up is inevitable.
Beyond that, I think it's really short sighted. When the X-men are popping off in the MCU people are gonna wish Spider-Man was there talking to Wolverine and Deadpool rather than being stuck with Venom and Morbius
no they didn't gain any money
compared to Disney they get money for each spider-man solo movie
Sony cooperating with Disney on MCU Spiderman films means that we get MCU Spiderman AND Into the Spiderverse, and Venom, or whatever films Sony wants to make.
The breakup is a loss for fans, because all it means is no more MCU Spiderman, except for the part where Sony thinks that Venom's box office means that Sony is capable of making MCU-equivalent films now.
Rather than 50% of MCU-Spidey, and 100% of Sony-Spidey (since Disney asked for a share), Sony wants 100% of nothing, and 100% of Sony-Spidey. That's a loss for Sony.
The last time we saw Andrew Garfield's Spidey, Sony fucked things up by (among other things) trying to force a Sinister Six movie, because they had a massive case of obvious Avengers envy. Kevin Feige could deliver them 50% of a legit Avengers-style Sinister Six movie (although Disney would rightfully want 50%, if they're sharing 50% of the work and expense). But Sony would rather have 100% of whatever wet fart they decide to make by themselves.
And the guy who said "Spiderverse wasn't better than any MCU movie" didn't mean to say that Spiderverse was worse than the worst MCU movie (like Thor 2), he meant it wasn't "better than any MCU movie", as in, there are some MCU movies that are better than it (like Endgame).
There was no meddling in that one. And it's a cartoon.
Have a look at Marvel under Rothman's watch at Fox to see what's in store for Spider-Man:)
I can see why some would enjoy it, but there's so much about that film that tells me Sony doesn't have a clue about making a shared universe
Eddie becoming Venom before even meeting Spider-Man is sooooo stupid
I mean, Disney did the leg work producing the Spiderman movies and only got 5% of the box office.
Sony did nothing but allow Spiderman to appear in CW, IW, and EG. Those movies would have been the exact same success stories without access to this character.
Sony was the obvious winner in the previous arrangement. Sony gained a lot of money thanks to the MCU deal.
Wait what? I can understand the Fox argument, but Why shouldn't Disney be able to own xmen?
Have you read the comics? Eddie becomes Venom before he meets Spider-Man in that too.
The universe depends on how well they budget things. Getting 100% of the take on Venom-level films is better business than half of a FFM. Venom and Spiderman will likely be the only 2 of the universe anyone cares about though.
As far as Sony film quality goes it's a mixed bag like every other studio. The MCU is an example of extreme studio control working. For every other studio block buster films are on a case by case basis. While they've had a very long run it won't continue forever and holding onto 100% of Spiderman's box office for X decades makes more sense than betting on the MCU to be a juggernaut for decades.
Not really. Take this for example:
Big budget Spider-Man movie, Disney + Sony 50/50
Budget: 150 million
Box office: 1.2 billion
OK, I'm not sure how box office profits go so I'll just say it's half of it. So, 600 million divided by 2 is 300 million, minus 75 million for each which would mean 225 million for Sony
Now, let's see Sony alone:
budget: 150 million
Box office: 900 million (I think that should be about correct)
450 million - 150 million is 300 million for Sony
So, even footing the entire bill and getting smaller box office values, it still seems like a win for Sony to me.
Sorry, meant the Symbiote itself bonds to Peter first. Without him rejecting it there's no reason for the Symbiote to hate him at all.
It makes sense for them, but it's still terrible for Spider-Man and the fans I think. I would actually say betting on the MCU makes a lot more sense looking at their track record. I'm not sure Sony can turn Morbius into a household name like Marvel did GOTG
They won't and it'll do OK at best. The director's last big budget film was "Life" and was relatively cheap so with a similar budget Morbius could do modestly well. The Sony stuff will make all its big money from Spiderman, Venom and Miles Morales.
Here's some more digits then since tons of people on this forum like to use critic reviews to decide whether something is good, worth seeing, or better than another..
Rotten Tomatoes:
Spider-Verse = 97%
Homecoming = 92%
Far From Home = 90%
Spider-Verse is a fantastic, beautiful movie that I recommend to my friends constantly, that said, and I can't believe I'm fucking saying this, I think it's becoming overrated in enthusiast groups like this. Some people talk about that movie like it's the second coming of Christ, and it's not that, it's a really good comic book movie that feels simultaneously really mature and occasionally weirdly immature.
I think Far From Home and Raimi 1 are better movies.
That's as realistic as them asking for 50% of Star Wars.
The merchandise. is. Completely. Unrelated. To. These. Deals.
No, because if Sony is investing half as much ($75 million instead of $150 million) into an MCU Spidey movie, and Disney is offering to increase the number of Sony/Disney MCU Spidey movies, then you can put a 2x multiplier on that first estimate, making it $450 million for Sony in a Disney partnership vs $300 million for Sony if they go it alone.
Or Sony could keep the movie output rate exactly where it is and drop that unused extra $75 million production budget into the next Into the Spiderverse.
Or Sony could take the $75 million that they don't have to invest in a yearly MCU Spidey movie and save it up for two years, and put $150 million into a bi-yearly $150 million movie of their own creation, like Venom.
Yes. Sony doesn't have to agree to that, it's their IP. Blaming and using the fanbase to pressure them is a bully move.
Considering Marvel's deal of helping with Spider-Man could extend to other properties thus increasing merch sales, Sony should say, "Give me some Merch money and we got a deal".
It's not their IP. They have the movie rights of a Marvel IP. Big difference.
That's why people bringing up stuff like Marvel having the merchandising earnings as some sort of part of a deal are fools
They can also ask for The Muppets merchandise money while they're at it. That's how it works according to you.
Spider-Man. Is. Marvel's. IP.
Sony. Only. Owns. Movie. Rights.
Every. Deal. Is. Around. Those. Rights. Only.
Feige wasn't involved in the negotiations to re-up the deal. It came down to the studio heads Tom Rothman and Alan Horn. Disney also didn't start out asking for 50%, as per Deadline, they started off with a 75/25 split in Sony's favor. Sony didn't take the deal and Disney eventually upped it to 50/50 before ending negotiations entirely. Then everything leaked out and became a giant mess for both studios.
Also I'm pretty sure Pascal was the one who came up with the initial Spider-Man deal back in 2015, she took it to Feige and he brought it to Disney.
I never even hinted that the current deal includes merchandising, but if Marvel wants a share and a chance to help with their other properties, it's only fair that Sony should hit 'em back with a "give me some merchandising since increased BO will lead to more merch sold and we own the film rights, so no increase without that".
Like, we get what you're saying, this is a hypothetical.
I wonder who Sony will make the head producer on the Spidey movies. Bring in the Spider-Verse team or continue with Watts/same writers?
Which just goes to show how worthless the oscars are, and bringing it up as if it's some mark of quality is foolish.
What part of "Merchandise is unrelated to these deals" are you not getting?
What you're asking is about as realistic as Disney giving them the merchandise money from Aladdin.
It's theirs. It's unrelated to the deal. And they are not going to even bring it up to the negotiations because the negotiations are around the movie rights
Marvel also owns Spidey comics, games and animated TV shows rights. Those are also not part of the deal and will never be.
They CAN be part of the deal if Sony wanted to. Disney/Marvel benefit with increased merch from increased movie releases. Like, you're taking it way too strongly as a hypothetical.
Your absolutely right that Sony going solo is a win for them - assuming they can continue to land at our around Venom's box office success.
When you account for the fact that without being linked to MCU, Sony can put out Spidey related movies more frequently than than the MCU schedule would have allowed, Sony has a real opportunity to make bank.
This is why I cant fault either studio. Disney really doesn't have time to keep making Spiderman movies for peanuts and giving them priority over their own movies that are much more lucrative for Disney. And Sony doesn't want their IP sitting on the shelf as Disney loads they year with their own mcu movies nor do they want to share profits when they think can make bank , even if their film quality doesn't match MCU.
Yall are overstating the boost in merchandise sales. Spiderman merch sells at ridiculous rates AT ALL TIMES . So when the movies drop, the uptick isn't as dramatic as it is for other superheroes.
Also, Disney pays Sony annual merchandise royalties and has been since 2011.
Really, Disney's ownership of Spidey merchandise has nothing to do with the movie profit split at all and realistically would never be on the table. The Merch business is way better margins than the movie business, so Disney isn't going to cut into their merch profits just to get a character who's absence won't harm mcu-film prospects anyway.
Well yes movie rights, my bad. but the rest of my sentence still applies :P
I personally really enjoyed MCU Spidey's run and I thought a lot of the adjustments to the character were good.
But oh well. I also don't care enough to throw my hat in with corporate side-picking. It was a bit devastating at first as I personally love the hell out of the MCU and Spidey is one of my favorite Marvel characters, but alas, the sting has cooled and I'm just gonna choose to be okay with going forward without any sort of skin in the game whatsoever. The MCU will still be good without Spidey, even if it won't line up with my shared universe ideals that was established in the comics and TV shows I grew up with. I also think Sony can still make really good Spidey stuff, but if I weighed in on it at all, they do need to just worry about making Spidey himself interesting and I don't really care to see them try to do a Spidey shared universe of films that's trying to reach the scope of MCU. Branch out here and there, but don't really need to go ham with it, just worry about having that good friendly-neighborhood Spidey core.
But oh well. I also don't care enough to throw my hat in with corporate side-picking. It was a bit devastating at first as I personally love the hell out of the MCU and Spidey is one of my favorite Marvel characters, but alas, the sting has cooled and I'm just gonna choose to be okay with going forward without any sort of skin in the game whatsoever. The MCU will still be good without Spidey, even if it won't line up with my shared universe ideals that was established in the comics and TV shows I grew up with. I also think Sony can still make really good Spidey stuff, but if I weighed in on it at all, they do need to just worry about making Spidey himself interesting and I don't really care to see them try to do a Spidey shared universe of films that's trying to reach the scope of MCU. Branch out here and there, but don't really need to go ham with it, just worry about having that good friendly-neighborhood Spidey core.
The premise is simple.
The MCU has largely been very solid with a proven track record.
The majority of live action films (again, live action. Spiderverse is by another division and not applicable here at all) produced by Sony this past decade have been hot garbage.
People don't trust Sony because they keep fucking up. That's all there is to it.
The MCU has largely been very solid with a proven track record.
The majority of live action films (again, live action. Spiderverse is by another division and not applicable here at all) produced by Sony this past decade have been hot garbage.
People don't trust Sony because they keep fucking up. That's all there is to it.
Spider-Man 3 was the previous highest grossing Spider-Man movie ever. Homecoming was 10m short of that Mark (no other SM came that close) while FFH surpassed it
Barely ($9million difference) Spider-Man 3 also cost over $100 million more to make and soured fans on the franchise.
Not by a whole lot, and I feel like people downplay the fact Homecoming still had to wash the stink of ASM2 off of it. Spider-Man 3 by comparison followed Spider-Man 2, easily one of the best Spider-Man movies.
Nope. Marvel Comics was bleeding out when they made a deal with Sony. There might not have ever been a Marvel Studios if they hadn't made these deals. They did what they had to do to survive.
