Gaf had like 6 members with tags commenting on their deep hate for Nintendo
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Seething hate for developers is something that the gaming community needs to work on
- Thread starter Deleted member 8001
- Start date
Gaf had like 6 members with tags commenting on their deep hate for Nintendo
See
This is the type of insightful commentary I look forward to when clicking on a thread
I remember there being a lot of incredulous reactions when devs revealed some of their behind the scenes secrets. People affronted when they found out that multiplayer gives newbies or strugglers a little leg up here and there to drive engagement.
Nobody is saying that this is a "don't criticise devs at all" plea, just that the existing environment can in no way be even vaguely considered constructive criticism.
Nobody is saying that this is a "don't criticise devs at all" plea, just that the existing environment can in no way be even vaguely considered constructive criticism.
Agreed with OP. The hate some people work themselves up into is silly. Like you can see in this thread, like people hating devs for... being fine with 30 fps. It's downright ridiculous what fantasies people trap themselves in to hate something.
Sadly more common these days. Female character in a game? A hundred angry gamers will screech about eeeevil feminists till kingdom come. Marketing department puts lootboxes in? Death threats against a developer that didn't even want that shit. Someone suggests that a "story only" mode would be a good thing to have in a game that is story focused anyway? Death threats won't stop after months.
Gamers can be completely insane about this. It's neither healthy, nor sensible, nor reasonable in any way. There's a perfectly fine line between disagreeing with business decisions (or even thinking those decisions to be really bad) and hating them actively as people.
It's also usually completely misguided. Take the lootboxes. Gamers usually freak out over some random dev and single them out as the one that did it all, but nine times out of ten, they just executed what management mandated.
Developers make easy shields these days, and stupid gamers sure swallow the bait. Keeps companies happy, since the gamers keep attacking windmills.
Devs are rarely ever the problem. They don't make the decisions. It'd be much smarter to criticize those that do, and the underlying systems that lead to that. Doesn't matter if the problem is lootboxes, your favorite franchise dying, or your favorite franchise being turned into a garbage bin shooter instead of a real game (cough shadowrunxcomlegacyofkainetc).
Sadly more common these days. Female character in a game? A hundred angry gamers will screech about eeeevil feminists till kingdom come. Marketing department puts lootboxes in? Death threats against a developer that didn't even want that shit. Someone suggests that a "story only" mode would be a good thing to have in a game that is story focused anyway? Death threats won't stop after months.
Gamers can be completely insane about this. It's neither healthy, nor sensible, nor reasonable in any way. There's a perfectly fine line between disagreeing with business decisions (or even thinking those decisions to be really bad) and hating them actively as people.
It's also usually completely misguided. Take the lootboxes. Gamers usually freak out over some random dev and single them out as the one that did it all, but nine times out of ten, they just executed what management mandated.
Developers make easy shields these days, and stupid gamers sure swallow the bait. Keeps companies happy, since the gamers keep attacking windmills.
Devs are rarely ever the problem. They don't make the decisions. It'd be much smarter to criticize those that do, and the underlying systems that lead to that. Doesn't matter if the problem is lootboxes, your favorite franchise dying, or your favorite franchise being turned into a garbage bin shooter instead of a real game (cough shadowrunxcomlegacyofkainetc).
"Seething hate [...] is something that the gaming community needs to work on"
I think you could reduce the statement even further.
Gamers just need to fucking cool it in general. Don't get so worked up about things. Let the hate go.
I think you could reduce the statement even further.
Gamers just need to fucking cool it in general. Don't get so worked up about things. Let the hate go.
You know there's a problem with toxicity in gaming circles when in a place as chill as ResetEra you still get people offended at the suggestion that they not spew outright hate.
He's just that perceptive. :)
Pretty much. I don't see the point of shitting on devs. Isn't shitting on games enough?
Yep. Definitely the collective 'angriest' of any entertainment medium I follow. No one does pitchforks and torches better than 'gamers'.
I mean, look at the Star FoX GP thread. People are already condemning the game, and developer (Retro), for something that may not exist. This happened with Mario 3D World, Mario+Rabbids, anything Destiny 2 related post launch.
These are just random examples off the top of my head, though. Does that mean everyone is in on the hate? No. But for these threads to hit 70, 80, 90+ pages in short order is saying something. 9 times out of 10, the overreactions end up being just that, overreactions. Games are released, crow has been fed, and people move on.....to the next game. You would think after the first 100 times of being wrong about initial disappointment, the wait a see approach would be best. Nope, pitchfork will always be at the ready.
These are just random examples off the top of my head, though. Does that mean everyone is in on the hate? No. But for these threads to hit 70, 80, 90+ pages in short order is saying something. 9 times out of 10, the overreactions end up being just that, overreactions. Games are released, crow has been fed, and people move on.....to the next game. You would think after the first 100 times of being wrong about initial disappointment, the wait a see approach would be best. Nope, pitchfork will always be at the ready.
Excellent frickin post! Well thought out end articulated! The problem the OP brings up is a very valid, extremely serious concern. I see emotions run super high across all different media and of course every part of media will have those who are super passionate and dedicated. However, what's bothering me lately regarding the gaming community is it sure seems like the problem the OP brings up is running especially rampant and is particularly bad in gamimg right now. I've asked myself for a while what exact moment or incident triggered all of...this vitriol, hate and pure anger? I know the Internet gives people a voice and some of these folks shouldn't have a megaphone platform but there still had to be an exact trigger point for all this. I'd be very curious to know what point it was at.
This is insane to me....these folks get so riled up, and so fuming pissed angry when they don't get exactly what they wanted that they'll attack these people just trying to make entertainment-people they don't even personally know and will likely never meet! You'd swear they'd done somethimg personal to them like rob them or hurt their families. It's ridiculous. Then, when they still don't get their way the death threats start flying. That's the point where the developers/studios shouldn't turn the other way anymore. At that point, they need to refer every one of the death threat emails and voicemails if those are happening too to the local law enforcement agencies where the people sending them live. They shouldn't be getting away with that iwith out consequence. Maybe when some of these punks get the cops at their doors they'll get how asinine and stupid this is. They need to learn, absolutely need to learn there's consequences for their actions and that they can't always get what they want.
I believe each developer/studio should be able to make the games THEY want. Folks really need to start handling this like sane, rational people. The rational choice would be if they're that unhappy with the project choice, aspects of the projects then voice that constructively and maturely. Then if you don't want to buy it, it's really that simple just don't buy it. All of these personal attacks, hate and death threats aren't necessary or funny. It really is as simple as just don't buy the products you don't like or don't want. Isn't that way easier than spend all this energy on anger?
Finally, I feel truly sorry for Ready at Dawn. They should never ever have had to go through what they did. They shoulda turned every one of those fools over to the FBI. They made a fantastic game but that wasn't exactly what the assclowns wanted so they handled it in a completely embarrassing, humiliating and dishonorable way.
There's gotta be an answer for this but I'm seriously concerned it's gonna take a real tragedy to wake some of these fools up and unfortunately not all of them will snap out of this. I'm concerned one of these days a super hardcore passionate gamer is gonna go way off the deep end, spaz out and go gun down a studio or developer. I'm shocked it hasn't happened yet. But, it's a matter of time sadly. When that day comes the community will finally understand how petty and asinine this all is but it will come at a very high price. All of it over video games.
It's not even play something else if you don't like a game. It's seriously just, don't hurl personal attacks at developers directly. That doesn't preclude criticizing a game, or even straight up hating a game (my friends can attest to my intense dislike of Fallout 3 for example). It's just making a distinction between the game and the developers, where one may be something you can't stand and makes you feel like you wasted your money, but the other is a bunch of people 99% of the time trying their absolute best to make something people will enjoy and feel good about spending their money and time on.
Passion is a two-sided coin. The same zeal that makes people hush over certain games and creators also makes them lash out at other games and creators (or even the same ones). The problem comes when people mistake their zeal for permission or acceptability.
The trick is to focus on the positives and stick to what you enjoy. Or as the old saw goes, "if you have nothing nice to say, then don't say anything at all."
The trick is to focus on the positives and stick to what you enjoy. Or as the old saw goes, "if you have nothing nice to say, then don't say anything at all."
Yeah I don't disagree. Were you responding to something directly in my post or piggy backing off of it for further discussion. I don't mind either way, just wanted to understand.
this is the guy who was so angry about AAA development that he got banned for it
and then came back after his ban to keep going
It's very bothersome that defending the difficulty of Souls games or the input system of fighting games as a feature of game design gets handwaved away as being "archaic" or "elitist" or "ableist" for insufficiently catering to hypothetical disabled players.
As much as people like to toot their own horns about a clean start and better community, Era's threads about topics like those sound exactly like they sounded on the old forum, and these are topics that someone decides to make a thread about every couple of months. Nothing's changed.
OP
OP
Except you're ignoring how people in those Dark Souls threads are absolutely toxic and elitist. People don't like hearing the word elitist because it's actually true in a lot of cases regarding people being gatekeepers to how a game should be instead of having options for those who need them.
Perhaps the issue is rooted in the psychology of "payback/revenge" that is a fairly persistent aspect of American and other cultures, especially disseminated by media, and either explicitly or implicitly taught from even the most formative years. Consequently, an individual learns that a particular (responsive) action is appropriate when the individual is (or feels) hurt.
A natural side-effect as an individual ages, yet doesn't fully grasp this ingrained causality (and perhaps lacks introspective capability), is, in a sense, diminished barriers and hence universal applicability. In short, anytime an individual feels threatened in any sense, the individual reacts - perhaps unreasonably - yet has already either consciously or subconsciously justified their response.
A natural side-effect as an individual ages, yet doesn't fully grasp this ingrained causality (and perhaps lacks introspective capability), is, in a sense, diminished barriers and hence universal applicability. In short, anytime an individual feels threatened in any sense, the individual reacts - perhaps unreasonably - yet has already either consciously or subconsciously justified their response.
There are valid arguments against this though. You can't just type the word "toxic" and think all points opposite to yours are dismissed.
Cool, typically the only time I ever get a response on this forum is when I've pissed someone off and they respond in anger. I was looking at what you said trying to figure out how I had pissed you off. Thought there was a misunderstanding for a sec since I agreed with your post. lmao, anyways I appreciate the constructive reply.
I think this Is almost somewhat true here on era. I find constructive conversations very difficult for most ppl, whether that be about a game or between each other. Part of the reason for that, is you either write an essay articulating yourself well and run the risk of no one reading it because it's to long, or you attempt a post with limited words and it gets taken the wrong way. Forums along with every other social media type can't mimick the flow of a face to face conversation, and so much gets lost without it. And with so much getting lost plus anonymity being a factor, it contributes to the irrational aspects of ppl having a discussion over social media.
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The only developers I hate are people I hate for their personal values and behaviours - such as Doug Tennapel's transphobia.
This is right next to fanboy wars imo toxic shit in the gaming community whether it be on here, twitter, gaf,twitch chat, youtube etc is all pretty damn disgusting.
Odd too when it feels like everyone and their mom on Era/Gaf wanted to see CliffyB ruined and Boss Key closed because they dont like what he does on Twitter and now that it actually is we get a thread filled with pages of "damn so sad to hear, hope everyone lands on their feet!"
Odd too when it feels like everyone and their mom on Era/Gaf wanted to see CliffyB ruined and Boss Key closed because they dont like what he does on Twitter and now that it actually is we get a thread filled with pages of "damn so sad to hear, hope everyone lands on their feet!"
This is actually the first time I'm hearing about those Nintendo developers getting bashed by their fans. I guess there's a merit in not getting involved with such games.
As for Yoshi-P, I've only heard nothing but praise regarding him.
As for Yoshi-P, I've only heard nothing but praise regarding him.
While I agree with the overall sentiment, something really disturbing and odious in recent times are the ways that these communities are preyed upon or provoked for the express purpose of getting such a reaction.
I must clarify, not by the developer/studio/company itself - but by a third party, an outside force that has some interest in 'siccing' a vitriolic bomb of hate on an organisation (or individual) they just want to see 'get theirs'.
I can say I moderately disagree with the way a game looks/plays/treats the player, an interview with a person of the industry, or a game review - and instantly be lumped in with the toxic brigading that was brought on by someone who thinks 'gee, those fans over-react at the slightest thing, I'll whip up something here to prove it.'
It's foul behaviour and it happens all too often, and what's more you can usually pinpoint the initial comment or action that starts it.
And I very much don't intend to 'name names' because these days it's exceedingly difficult to separate criticism of a person and the one-person organisations that so many gaming-adjacent personalities have become these days.
It's very sports-media like in a way, now that I think about it.
I must clarify, not by the developer/studio/company itself - but by a third party, an outside force that has some interest in 'siccing' a vitriolic bomb of hate on an organisation (or individual) they just want to see 'get theirs'.
I can say I moderately disagree with the way a game looks/plays/treats the player, an interview with a person of the industry, or a game review - and instantly be lumped in with the toxic brigading that was brought on by someone who thinks 'gee, those fans over-react at the slightest thing, I'll whip up something here to prove it.'
It's foul behaviour and it happens all too often, and what's more you can usually pinpoint the initial comment or action that starts it.
And I very much don't intend to 'name names' because these days it's exceedingly difficult to separate criticism of a person and the one-person organisations that so many gaming-adjacent personalities have become these days.
It's very sports-media like in a way, now that I think about it.
The amount of hate Sakamoto gets because of the mistake that was Other M is still mind blowing to this day. It makes sense why, for awhile, he decided to do other things like Tomodachi Life and the other weird and cool games. Other M was terrible, no doubt. The Metroid community has become so incredibly toxic with this, and it has extended to Tanabe as well because of Federation Force despite him saying how he wants to work on Prime 4 in interviews and Fedforce even hinting at Prime 4. Do the fans let things go? No. They burn everything in their path, demand the cancellation of games, say that Nintendo should sell off the IP. It's why I don't participate in any Metroid thread anymore and never will.
I have to agree with this post, strongly so, even though I think Metroid:OtherM is probably the worst game I've ever played, the most disappointing game, and the most sexist game, by far. Really dislike it.
At the same time, this is no need to hate Sakamoto for. At worst, he made a mistake. Mistakes happen.
But the thing is: I don't even agree that *Sakamoto* made a mistake neccessarily. Most people have this need to single out a single dev to blame everything on, blending out that games are team efforts with outside factors influencing major parts of the design. When you have dozens of people working on a game, with multiple other departments being involved in every single decision, you cannot blame a single individual for anything. It's just not how game design works.
Outside of individual devs like Toby fox, barely any dev is individually and singularily responsible for a game. Not even for large parts of a game. Not even if they are the public face for it.
I have seen so often when a marketing department would step in, and cause MAJOR changes nobody in the design team wanted, making the game much more messy than it had to be. Then somebody in production plays it, thinks X, Y and Z are bad, hands the game to a focus group of 12 year old boys, and the game has to be changed in accordance with the responses again. The results of many cooks is often a troublesome result.
I completely agree, and those posts on Sakamoto are on point as well.
Toxicity is just part of the basic culture of the internet, but even the double standards just between gaming and other media is crazy.
On Polansky:
"Well, you know, the 60's were a different time, and he was dealing with the trauma of losing his wife. And anyway, regardless of what he did, he still makes some amazing films. You just have to be able to separate the art from the artist or you'll never enjoy anything in life."
On Sakamoto:
"That shithead fucked up my favorite franchise so bad that if he so much as whispers the word 'Metroid' again, so help me god. That man should never be able to make another videogame again."
Us gamers, huh.
Toxicity is just part of the basic culture of the internet, but even the double standards just between gaming and other media is crazy.
On Polansky:
"Well, you know, the 60's were a different time, and he was dealing with the trauma of losing his wife. And anyway, regardless of what he did, he still makes some amazing films. You just have to be able to separate the art from the artist or you'll never enjoy anything in life."
On Sakamoto:
"That shithead fucked up my favorite franchise so bad that if he so much as whispers the word 'Metroid' again, so help me god. That man should never be able to make another videogame again."
Us gamers, huh.
I... what? You stay away from Odyssey because of a minor part of the audience?
This is related to something I've thought about on this topic. The negativity/toxicity I believe is a multi-faceted complex issue, but I think one of the big reasons it's become so prominent is due to years of "accepted dog piling." You can see this in so many different parts of gaming communities, everything from the mentioned "dogpile on the hate of this game," which fuels the constant narrative that games are either the best or worst ever with little in-between, or dogpiling on fan bases/communities ("Sonic fans are weird and the worst", "4chan is terrible", Tumblr is...(don't want to say what is often said in certain faucets)...
There's a massive problem in gaming related to this topic where people are both encouraged by the communities to form a hive-mind and "accepted" way of treating something, group mentality against each other to make the worst of the others and best of where they're at, and this comes to game developers too. Cliffy b. is a great recent example, most people who dogpiled on him probably didn't play his recent games, just it got perpetuated it was 'the cool thing' to shit on him and his games (despite the fact they were fine), and it got a lot of people to dogpile onto that opinion and spread it around.
I believe this is one part of the whole here, and this part is probably multi-faceted as well. Some likely reasons is people are afraid to be singled out for having weird or what others will toss as 'wrong' opinions so they'll follow and take on these 'popular' ideas presented even if they're not directly involved in them, and other part of it would be the love of being outraged that internet and gaming has become so associated with where people actively want to get outraged about things it seems.
There is of course room for negativity, critique, etc., but it's become this constant drowning out whining noise in recent years which frankly has made discussion in a lot of places just not fun to participate in if you're not here to get mad or dogpile on things. There's so much more to all of this, but what I'll say for now as it came to mind.
This weird fixation of Metroid fans wanting sakamoto nowhere near the series despite him being with the series since the beginning and most likely made their favorite game in the series I find just the worse, like they couldnt handle a less than steller entry in their series as if metroid was immune to that
I think you're overstating the problem OP. And the hatred I see usually seems to be deservedly more directed at publishers than devs.
Having said that, I think developers would prefer a passionate customer base that care enough to complain than indifferent, silent customers.
Having said that, I think developers would prefer a passionate customer base that care enough to complain than indifferent, silent customers.
entitled children tend to get mad when they don't get what they want. sometimes they almost feel like they are owed something.
people are passionate about these things so I can totally understand disappointment, but the amount of hate and vitriol is sometimes scary as hell. there's no good excuse to ever threaten a developer just trying to make games for people to enjoy
people are passionate about these things so I can totally understand disappointment, but the amount of hate and vitriol is sometimes scary as hell. there's no good excuse to ever threaten a developer just trying to make games for people to enjoy
I've seen at least one developer crash a good game because they didn't take the time to understand how their actions were making their playerbase feel. I think it's a good idea - or at least a consultant.
I agree OP,at the end of the day,there are people there and I don't know,it's gotta be suck knowing that some people almost want you to fail at your job. eventually,we are all in the fun business and it's important to give constructive criticism sometimes,but to HATE? nahh,the world is an ugly place as it is,no need to make it worse. I mostly think of 343i when I write this btw,but obviously there are others.
Agreed. You can dislike a game or everything but when it reaches those levels of toxicity it's just bad. This is unfortunately extremely common in every entertainment media and I saw it every time in the internet.
I used to hate Kudo for destroying Def Jam FFNYC legacy with Def Jam ICON. When EA fire & shutdown his studio. It was a joyous occasion for me. Anyway, Cliff Bleszinski say as a developer he got adamentium skin so criticism couldn't hurt him. Developer need to stay off game forum & focus on their task. Don't let fan muddle your vision