You could have said this 10 years ago and it still would've been wrong :P
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Poll: Are indie games today overall better then SNES games?
- Thread starter Poised Turtoise
- Start date
This isn't true at all. SNES games look very basic compared to most of the acclaimed indie games.
If I'd compare them side to side today, then yes, I think several indie games are better than most stuff from the early 90's.
But if you take into context how fresh and revolutionary they were, then the SNES games made a much bigger impact and were a much bigger deal. It's crazy how little has actually happened in 25 years.
But if you take into context how fresh and revolutionary they were, then the SNES games made a much bigger impact and were a much bigger deal. It's crazy how little has actually happened in 25 years.
I agree as a whole the best Indie games are better than most of the SNES library. But almost all of these Indie games we love were directly influenced by games from the SNES library/era.
You can't have one without another. They both have their place. I love them both!
You can't have one without another. They both have their place. I love them both!
Easily, provided you're willing to put in the time to find the indies that appeal to you. Many of the indies that I play, the majority of this forum have likely never played or heard of.
But then again, "SNES games" isn't a super high bar. I would put "Genesis games" and to a lesser degree "TG-16 games" above most to all of the SNES library.
But then again, "SNES games" isn't a super high bar. I would put "Genesis games" and to a lesser degree "TG-16 games" above most to all of the SNES library.
I think it's time all game fans accept that games are better than ever. There are far more games being made, far more diverse types of games, more game developers with diversity of skills, backgrounds, ideas, etc. Games 20 years ago aren't even comparable to the level of depth, creativity, and imagination we have today. There's nothing wrong with that, it's a natural part of healthy growth in art, every new idea adds to the whole. This is particularly prevalent with games considering how much they rely on technology.
There are absolutely games from early gens that are still some of the best games of all time but that all time list of games is getting longer and longer the more games we get in the present and that trend will only continue in the future.
Games back in the day were often made by a handful of people, like indie games today, and they were SEVERELY limited in scope by technology, knowledge of game design, experience, etc. We have the technology now that allows the same amount of people who made super marios bros to make games those developers literally could not have imagined possible. Nostalgia is a great thing, but memory is faulty and I honestly believe anyone who thinks games overall were better back then, specifically compared to indie games which very often match the same dev team size, are simply being tricked by their fond memories of the past. We're living in an incredible time I wouldn't have thought possible even ten years ago and it's only going to get better (barring, you know, climate apocalypse or world war 3)
There are absolutely games from early gens that are still some of the best games of all time but that all time list of games is getting longer and longer the more games we get in the present and that trend will only continue in the future.
Games back in the day were often made by a handful of people, like indie games today, and they were SEVERELY limited in scope by technology, knowledge of game design, experience, etc. We have the technology now that allows the same amount of people who made super marios bros to make games those developers literally could not have imagined possible. Nostalgia is a great thing, but memory is faulty and I honestly believe anyone who thinks games overall were better back then, specifically compared to indie games which very often match the same dev team size, are simply being tricked by their fond memories of the past. We're living in an incredible time I wouldn't have thought possible even ten years ago and it's only going to get better (barring, you know, climate apocalypse or world war 3)
Depends on the genre. Love tons of indies, and some are my favorite games ever (Mark of the Ninja, Ori, Shovel Knight), but there's nothing out there that compares to the JRPG output of SNES. Nothing that I'd say is as good as MMX or Super Contra (for those genres). There are a few great Zelda-like games, but nothing as good as Zelda LttP, imo.
So, yeah, really just depends on what you're looking for. I definitely wouldn't agree with "overall," but might agree depending on the genres you're interested in.
So, yeah, really just depends on what you're looking for. I definitely wouldn't agree with "overall," but might agree depending on the genres you're interested in.
OP
OP
A lot ofpeople
IT is weird that no indie has even come close to the JRPGs of the time. Hopefully CrossCode is good, have heard some solid things. I'm inclined to agree though, especially the last two years for me indies have been crushing it
I love me some indie games, but I'd never trade "all indies" for "all snes".
I'm sure there's a lot of nostalgia baked into the argument, but:
There's no Zelda-like indie that surpasses Link to the Past
There's no Mario-like indie that surpasses Mario World
There's no Earthbound-like indie that surpasses Earthbound
There's no Donkey Kong-like indie that surpasses Diddy's Kong Quest
There's no Metroidvania indie that surpasses Super Metroid
and so on and so forth.
Yes there are a ton of SNES games that are bad in terms of the good/bad ratio, but that ratio is WAY worse when it comes to indie games lol.
I'm sure there's a lot of nostalgia baked into the argument, but:
There's no Zelda-like indie that surpasses Link to the Past
There's no Mario-like indie that surpasses Mario World
There's no Earthbound-like indie that surpasses Earthbound
There's no Donkey Kong-like indie that surpasses Diddy's Kong Quest
There's no Metroidvania indie that surpasses Super Metroid
and so on and so forth.
Yes there are a ton of SNES games that are bad in terms of the good/bad ratio, but that ratio is WAY worse when it comes to indie games lol.
This is exactly what I was going to say. Indies have ultimately been unable to penetrate the magic of SNES RPGs, but anything action or platform based has definitely had the crown taken.
CrossCode to me is like 1 tier below the likes of FF6 and Chrono Trigger...which is honestly amazing given FF6 and CT are literally God Tier.
Modern indie games are great and a lot better. Not only visually. I feel like the balancing is so much better these days compared to the SNES era. Also current indie games often have way better mechanics, variation and game design.
OP
OP
oh indies means independent developer
For sure context of time is important, but even without that context I think there are enough fantastic games on the SNES to compare to the indies released the last few console gens. Indies have built upon and improved some things but other things like JRPGs they have not nailed at all, and some of those games hold up completely. depending on preference I don't think it is a clear blow out? Maybe an uphill battle for SNES games, I'm certainly in the indie camp if I had to say which games I've enjoyed more overall at this point that's even with the nostalgia
The classics from the SNES may have aged better than games from any other generation.
The SNES came out almost 30 years ago and they still work perfectly in 2019. Well enough that Nintendo could slap 20 of them in a box and charge $60 for it.
Before we give the crown up lets see how well the best indie games fare over the next 10 years.
The SNES came out almost 30 years ago and they still work perfectly in 2019. Well enough that Nintendo could slap 20 of them in a box and charge $60 for it.
Before we give the crown up lets see how well the best indie games fare over the next 10 years.
Oh yeah I voted 'I'm not sure.' There's also genres of games that don't exist in the indie scene that were HUGE on SNES/Genesis. I think there's only 1 "traditional" indie sports game in the last 5 years worth mentioning, Super Mega Baseball. You have some other non-traditional sports games like OlliOlli or even something like Rocket League, but the sports genre was huuuugggeeee on SNES/Gensis, some of the top selling games every year and many of them were excellent that stood the test of time. I think sports sims are like "my JRPGs" in that it's a genre that I was so into as a kid and the genre has been killed in the last 10ish years.
This is where I'm coming from too. Building on what came before can lead to more polished and refined products, but it has an inherent "been there done that" feeling to it. It's hard to compare games that create entirely new genres and styles of gameplay to titles that iterate on existing things.
I think that overall, or on average, Indies are better but personally there aren't indies that have the highs of, say, Super Metroid. Hotline Miami got close though
Indie games tend to be more polished versions of old games with not that many ideas of their own and they seem to be standing on the shoulders of giants a bit too much (talking about 2d games mostly and of course there's lots of exeptions) so I'm very much someone who respects originality and origins and for that simple reason I can't call modern indie games better than SNES games.
Couldn't have said it better. I consider SNES my favorite console, but there are plenty of indies that occupy my time now. That reminds me, I need to jump on cuphead and celeste.
My biggest gripe with most indie games is the need to over complicate mechanics. Most of the time the complexity is not needed. Hollow Knight required you to go back to a bench to update the map and having an item equipped at all time in order to even see where you are in the map.
It's one of the reasons I love Shovel Knight. It relies on simple mechanics and it works wonderfully.
It's one of the reasons I love Shovel Knight. It relies on simple mechanics and it works wonderfully.
A lot of indies are inspired by SNES games, especially a lot of the really good ones. I can probably name more great indies than snes games at this point, but I think SNES hits more highs than indies.
Indies arent a platform though or a publisher or a developer. Its a strange comparison.
Indies arent a platform though or a publisher or a developer. Its a strange comparison.
LOL I know what the literal definition of the word means...
The scope of indie games goes way beyond the limits of the SNES.... Blossom Tales vs Zelda III is a reasonable comparison. The Talos Principle vs Zelda III is not.
The average indie game is better than the average SNES game, easily.
That said, no indie game, except maybe Hollow Knight, comes close to A Link to the Past, or Super Mario World, or Super Metroid, or Final Fantasy VI, and so on.
That said, no indie game, except maybe Hollow Knight, comes close to A Link to the Past, or Super Mario World, or Super Metroid, or Final Fantasy VI, and so on.
Super Metroid is far surpassed by Hollow Knight in my eyes.
When you're using DKC as a genre defining title, it's clear you're looking at this with rose-tinted glasses.
In terms of numbers, indies have been a thing since early 2000s, so of course there are far more great indie titles than there are SNES ones.
But , for me personally I still can't find a traditional, simple platformer that is better than SMW, DKC, or Sonic if you want to bring the Genesis into this comparison. Also, art wise I find most indies lacking the character that made the 16-bit era so good in the first place.
But , for me personally I still can't find a traditional, simple platformer that is better than SMW, DKC, or Sonic if you want to bring the Genesis into this comparison. Also, art wise I find most indies lacking the character that made the 16-bit era so good in the first place.
indie games easily, even if you limit it to the type of indie games that are specifically referencing SNES stuff.
The only one of those I'd agree with is Link to the Past.
If you leave out the nostalgia and historical importance, pretty much every genre has a bunch of superior modern indie takes on it.
The only one of those I'd agree with is Link to the Past.
If you leave out the nostalgia and historical importance, pretty much every genre has a bunch of superior modern indie takes on it.
Only because they've built upon what came before. It would be absolutely bonkers if games hadn't improved in those areas in the last 25 years. So, relatively speaking I feel like none of this is actually true.
Hollow Knight feels very style over substance to me. It's a decent enough game - a 7 or 8 out of 10 - but nowhere close to Super Metroid. Like many parts, the map system feels deliberately designed to stoke the fire of a fanatical hardkore who'll proclaim anyone who doesn't like it "doesn't understand it".
Sure, it's not Fez levels of pretentiousness, but it's getting there!
I'd say the best indies games released in the last 10 years are just as good if not better than many SNES games. So many modern indies are platformers, rougue-likes and metroidvanias though, what we don't get is as many great JRPG's.
The SNES's average quality is definitely a lot higher, as carts were expensive and only major publishers could afford to make games. In contrast, the costs of distributing a game nowadays is significantly lower, meaning there are way more games to choose from, but there are also way more terrible indie games than great ones. Unfortunately this is getting worse and great games are being overlooked as games are so easy to miss.
The SNES's average quality is definitely a lot higher, as carts were expensive and only major publishers could afford to make games. In contrast, the costs of distributing a game nowadays is significantly lower, meaning there are way more games to choose from, but there are also way more terrible indie games than great ones. Unfortunately this is getting worse and great games are being overlooked as games are so easy to miss.
It's weird to be comparing just the SNES against several modern formats. Shouldn't the Genesis, Turbo, Neo Geo, Amiga, X68000, etc. be included if were talking about the 16-bit era? I guess the first post was edited to say "retro games vs indie games" but there is a strange tendency on this site to focus mostly on the SNES for that era.
I voted for "I am not sure" as it's too hard to keep track of what counts as an independent game. A lot of people just use it as a shorthand for modern lower budget 2d game but not all indies are like that, and not all modern 2d games are indies.
I voted for "I am not sure" as it's too hard to keep track of what counts as an independent game. A lot of people just use it as a shorthand for modern lower budget 2d game but not all indies are like that, and not all modern 2d games are indies.
I answered that indies are better, but on further reflection, it's a tough question. I realized that I'm only really exposed to good indie games now. There are probably a million that are terrible, but I don't even see most of them. In the SNES days, I bought or rented awful games because they were in stores, looking just as legitimate as anything else. But my contact with an indie game, now, usually only comes after hearing good things about it online and deciding to check it out.
Any SNES games I've played recently (sampled a snes classic)... Dated. Very, very dated.
Kind of surprising that so many people ITT are shitting all over Indies in favor of SNES games, either by saying the SNES games are flat out better or that indie games have the gall to TAKE INSPRIATION FROM OTHER GAMES. Come on now.
I haven't played every single SNES game or every single indie game, so I can't say I'm able to compare them "overall". I'm rather impressed that so many people in this thread have and can!
I know, I know, representative sampling can draw accurate conclusions without surveying an entire population. But my point is that art doesn't work on averages, yeah?
I look at it like this: if I were to make a top ten, or top hundred, list of the best games I've ever played, I imagine it would contain many times more SNES games than modern indie games. I believe this would still hold true even if I split the list by genre, at least for every genre that is represented on the SNES. The scales only tip even further if you do the reasonable thing and expand the comparison to include all retro games, as the OP later clarified.
I know, I know, representative sampling can draw accurate conclusions without surveying an entire population. But my point is that art doesn't work on averages, yeah?
I look at it like this: if I were to make a top ten, or top hundred, list of the best games I've ever played, I imagine it would contain many times more SNES games than modern indie games. I believe this would still hold true even if I split the list by genre, at least for every genre that is represented on the SNES. The scales only tip even further if you do the reasonable thing and expand the comparison to include all retro games, as the OP later clarified.
Not all indies use "PIXEL ART" (I hate this term when its used like this, as an insult)
Amazingly enough, indie games these days might actually have subtitles! INCREDIBLE. Control options! Video Options!
Video gaming has moved on and forward from the SNES days and its to the benefit of us all that it has. Gaming is better than ever.
It should be more than 47% for "indies are better". Like 75% at least.
Considering I didn't care for ALttP when it came out, I would say yes.
snes games are more important historically. but in 2019 there are more indie games that i want to play (or replay) than snes games, so i voted for indies.
I think Cosmic Star Heroine is better than many 16-bit JRPGs of that era.