Okay holy hell is Super Mario Sunshine as bad as it looks?
- Thread starter SolidChamp
- Start date
if you think it's getting hate for *no* reason you might want to read the thread a little more thoroughly... it definitely has it's fair share of faults, arguably moreso considering the renown of the series
No it gets the hate because it's not good. It's fine if you like it but at best it's a very decisive game.
It has design issues but the controls and fluidity of movement are god tier. It was a but rushed iirc.
If we're just stating opinions this way, no Odyssey is the worst by a wide margin :p
I couldn't figure out why Odyssey disappointed me and this is absolutely it. Thank you for going into my brain
The Yoshi mission in Ricco Harbor is one of the worst levels in any Mario game. The only reason nobody talks about it is because Sunshine manages to outdo it somehow lol.
Odyssey is what you get if you started making Sunshine, but actually did it well this time:
- make the 'vacation' theme actually work by going to different tourist locations instead of every level looking the exact same
- make the new movement gimmick fun and engaging instead of a slow jetpack that removed half the platforming,
- cutscenes are actually charming and delightful instead of an endless unskippable slogs
- actually finish making the game before releasing it instead of panicking and throwing it out half-baked to try to save the Gamecube
I really like Sunshine due to liking how Mario controls, and just being able to move around and climb things within the levels. Its been a bit since I last played however, and I won't say that there weren't frustrating stars here and there. Manta Ray and Sandbird were fine though.
They made 0 effort at world building, which sunshine at least attempted. The environments are beyond bland in Odyssey, every single level left me waiting for the game to get good. The new direction of objectives in the game is, quite frankly, the worst system I've ever experienced in a platformer. It wasn't rewarding in the slightest. The new movement mechanic trivalized all the platforming segments even more than fludd did, even jump is solved by bouncing off your hat. The same could be said for sunshine with fludd, but the penalty for taking the easy way out was a massive reduction in speed. Besides, the extra nozzles you get later on are super cool imo. And yeah, Sunshine may have frustrating segments, but I'll take those over Odyssey literally never challenging the player.
Sunshine is the only mainline Mario game which has levels that are badly designed in the sense that they didn't play test or polish them enough. While there are some oddball design choices in some Mario games here and there, there's nothing that plays as bad as the Giant Pachinko Machine level or the Poison River level in Sunshine.
I appreciate that they were trying to do something different, but in execution it was annoying as fuck to play.
I really loved the theme. All the beaches and the beautiful, serene ripples on the sea, the chill music. So yeah I thought it looked great. But too many of the worlds had simple levels that were frustrating. There are some super fun parts of the game, and I liked FLUDD, but the game felt rushed, like it would've been great with a solid delay and some more substantial content.
It's a great game, but the worst 3D Mario game by far.
People need to remember that the GCN was Nintendo's first DVD console, so they suffered the "PlayStation syndrome" late, that's why GCN games are so weird.
It was their first time where they didn't have the need to cut content. They now had basically unlimited memory to work with, coming from 32MB cartridges to 1.5GB discs is a challenge, with a memory limit, you are forced to cut games to the basics, the reason why most SNES RPGs have agreed way better than their PS1 counterparts, the latter are filled with pointless mini games or really bad story telling.
There is also the fact that Sunshine, like Wind Waker, was rushed. Nintendo had almost no 3rd party support, they had burnt bridges with many of them during the N64 era, they lost Rare, which was a really important partner in the N64 era, and they needed games ASAP.
GCN launched without a strong Mario game, they couldn't get Sunshine on time, and they released Luigi's Mansion, while good, extremely short, and ultimately disappointing.
So they had to rush Mario and Zelda, both games released in a rushed state and where extremely disappointing. Good games, yes, but both could have been so much better.
People need to remember that the GCN was Nintendo's first DVD console, so they suffered the "PlayStation syndrome" late, that's why GCN games are so weird.
It was their first time where they didn't have the need to cut content. They now had basically unlimited memory to work with, coming from 32MB cartridges to 1.5GB discs is a challenge, with a memory limit, you are forced to cut games to the basics, the reason why most SNES RPGs have agreed way better than their PS1 counterparts, the latter are filled with pointless mini games or really bad story telling.
There is also the fact that Sunshine, like Wind Waker, was rushed. Nintendo had almost no 3rd party support, they had burnt bridges with many of them during the N64 era, they lost Rare, which was a really important partner in the N64 era, and they needed games ASAP.
GCN launched without a strong Mario game, they couldn't get Sunshine on time, and they released Luigi's Mansion, while good, extremely short, and ultimately disappointing.
So they had to rush Mario and Zelda, both games released in a rushed state and where extremely disappointing. Good games, yes, but both could have been so much better.
I have some comments about your other criticisms, but this is by far the most baffling and ridiculous comment about this game I've ever seen.
Let's look at the classic Mario "lava" levels. Every game's gotta have 'em they've been there since 1-4 and especially Lethal Lava Land:
"The vaporwave low-poly sentient cutlery giant food kingdom. The part of the 'lava' is being played by a sea of neon pink scalding hot tomato soup that flows out of a giant volcano that's also a cooking pot."
VS.
"You go inside a big volcano and there's lava."
YOU'LL NEVER GUESS WHICH OF THESE TWO THIS POSTER IS CALLING BLAND!
I'm not saying Odyssey is flawless, and I don't entirely disagree that the moons could have been split into multiple different tiers to reflect the huge difference in complexity between different ones (e.g. ground pounding glowing spots gets you mini-moons, completing a challenge course gets you a moon, beating a boss gets you a triple moon)...
But Sunshine is literally the game with blue coins my dude. There has never been a more terrible collectible in a Nintendo game. Odyssey may have stumbled a bit out of the gate here but Sunshine's horse never left the gate and had to be put down.
My criticism with Fludd isn't that you use it a lot, it's THAT it's way too slow. I have no doubt someone could make a fun and exciting platformer where you're constantly shooting around in a jetpack, it's just Sunshine is not that game because the jetpack is anti-fun (imagine combining a jetpack, possibly the most fun idea in existence, and a Mario game, which are known for their satisfying movement, and in the end result the best levels are the ones where the game physically strips you of Fludd and makes you get around without it.)
Bouncing off your hat in Odyssey is the equivalent of a slightly more interesting double jump. Of course you use it all the time, it's quick, snappy, feels good to do -- every platformer under the sun makes you use your double jump constantly and it's good the new mechanic instantly feels integral to the experience instead of superfluous and rarely used.
Definitely. It's a little frustrating that they're kind of arbitrarily gated to only having one at a time (Fludd should have just gotten an increased arsenal of movement options over time) but they're fun.
Having the equivalent of dozens and dozens of new unique power-ups by being able to play as every enemy is cooler though :^P
Definitely another fair criticism. There are probably about just as many complex and engaging moons at the end of long platforming sessions or bosses as a game like 64, but the player can easily choose to skip a significant chunk of those entirely and just collect the potted plant moons instead, which can bring down the challenge a lot.
I just played it once just when it came out, I liked it alright but didnt love it. It really didnt leave any lasting impression on me and its nothing that Id play again.
I do like Sunshine but it is absolutely the worst of the 3D Mario games. It has a lot of good going for it, I adore Delfino Isle as a location and visually the game still holds up very well, along with FLUDD being fun to use, but the stuff that's bad is REALLY bad. The fact that some of those terrible bonus games and some of the absolute worst missions like Yoshi's Fruit Adventure made it into a mainline Mario game of all things is pretty baffling. I should find my old write up I did of why Yoshi's Fruit Adventure is terrible on every level and post it here, it's truly something awful.
I'm really shocked by the Odyssey hate. I thought it was brilliant. Fun gameplay and levels. Love the variety of settings, excellent music, surreal atmosphere and cartoonishly charming brief character interactions. Maybe I suck at games, but I never thought it was a total breeze by any stretch. Looking back at the 8/16/64 bit games, they're rarely that challenging for a seasoned player 80% of the levels.
I have never enjoyed Sunshine since buying it day 1 on GCN and again years later on Dolphin. It had nothing to do with cutscenes. I'm not looking to Mario for compelling storytelling. I found it to have an unimaginative setting with very frustrating gameplay and bad music.
I have never enjoyed Sunshine since buying it day 1 on GCN and again years later on Dolphin. It had nothing to do with cutscenes. I'm not looking to Mario for compelling storytelling. I found it to have an unimaginative setting with very frustrating gameplay and bad music.
My wife, bless her soul, was insistent that Sunshine was THE BEST MARIO GAME EVER...even after playing Odyssey (Galaxy 2 is still better). Anyway, we loaded it up and she soon realized that her rose tinted glasses were extremely big. Sunshine was a mistake.
This is nonsense. You're basically saying there aren't any other good platformers outside of this franchise.
The bolded should be the only explanation people need to understand Sunshine's reception.
Coming off genre changing, generation defining, Mario 64, a 'great platformer' was understandably a huge disappointment for many. While aspects of Sunshine have definitely dated poorly in many ways (camera control, QOL stuff spring to mind), I think it still stands of a great example of the 3D platformer circa the early 2000s. It's got a fantastic soundtrack. A really neat vacation vibe. The gameplay is tight. Sure it's lacking polish in some areas, and some of the shines are horrible (admittedly avoidable if you don't care about 100% completion), but overall, the list of better 3D platformers from the time is incredibly short. It stands as one of the best examples of its genre of that generation.
And as a weak link in a franchise that otherwise puts out best in class, genre and generation defining titles.
I don't think it does especially for the time frame, I'd put it in the bottom of 3d platformers in the ps2, gamecube era. It's not a bad game but it's not a good game either.
There were a LOT of trash 3D platformers that era.
Not to argue it's the best (I don't think it is) but these are the other games in that genre (at least on the gamecube). Can't say I see many games at all here that I'd put it below.
GameCube Platformer Games by Metascore
GameCube Platformer Games by Metascore at Metacritic.com
www.metacritic.com
A bit harsh. Jak 2 and Jak 3 are really terrible games. All 3D Sonic games are trash.
Realistically i would say only the first Jak and Daxter is better than Sunshine and maybe the second Ratchet and Clank but it is a bit of a toss up for me between these three. They aren't really similar. Being fair i did not play much of the Sly games because they just looked boring and failed to grab me.
Yeah, I don't get how people say that with a straight face. There's almost two decades worth of posts, reviews, explanations, video essays on this game alone.
Best Mario game by my estimation. Don't get the hate either.
So do I, but it absolutely has its flaws (controls, level design, borderline unfair shines).
I freaking love Super Mario Sunshine seeing so many people online apparently hating it was news to me in recent years, i just don't understand how anyone can sit here and call Sunshine "bad" sure you might not like it yeah? But calling it bad is quite a stretch.
I don't think it is, I would put all the Jack games, All the Rachet and Clank games and all the Sly games far above it. I just think they dropped the ball hard with sunshine. I'd be curious what a remaster would be like though.
Looking at that list it is probably in the top of the gamecube platformers. I don't think that reflects good on the gamecube though but you are right lots of trash on that list. I would put most of the ps2 platformers above it though. https://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/genre/metascore/platformer/ps2?view=condensedThere were a LOT of trash 3D platformers that era.
Not to argue it's the best (I don't think it is) but these are the other games in that genre (at least on the gamecube). Can't say I see many games at all here that I'd put it below.
GameCube Platformer Games by Metascore
GameCube Platformer Games by Metascore at Metacritic.com
Shrug, it is what it is.
I got seizures from this game. The IQ is very hazy and the camera doesn't help. As a mainline Mario game, its not great. But rated as a platformer in general there are much worse out there. PS2 for instance doesn't have many platform games that are better.
It's not a great Mario game, but it's a great game in general. The famous Fludd-less segments, which are a direct precursor to Mario Galaxy, make the entire experience worth it. There are also a lot of very bright spots throughout the "standard" levels. Way more good than bad.