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[Major Spoilers] One of the endings in Catherine: Full Body gets extremely transphobic... moreso than that original (OP Updated Feb. 17)
- Thread starter HylianSeven
- Start date
Considering Atlus keeps doing this shit since Persona 3, I don't think the clueless excuse holds it anymore.
Considering the original Catherine is approaching being a decade old, the idea that they're just clueless as to how their treatment of this character has gone over just doesn't hold water.
It's an unarguable pattern of if perhaps not outright hatred, at least a complete unwillingness to change how they portray LGBT+ characters. It's not like they're completely against improvements since P3P did altere a pretty transphobic scene, they just don't seem to see any issues with what they're doing. They're also making the conscious decision to keep exploring these themes despite the heavy criticism they have gotten for it.
This team is doing these things with intent. Perhaps that intent is not as sinister as it could be, but even then I'm not sure that matters when the damage will be done regardless of intent.
Since when does "doing what they can" = "localizing exactly how Atlus JP wants us to"?
You don't get points for throwing your hands in the air and saying, "Gee, wish we could do something, but oh well."
There's literally no reason for the gay couple in P5 to exist, other than to perpetuate hateful stereotypes against the LGBT community. They aren't funny, they don't advance the story at all. They are only there to sexually harass an underage high schooler. "Here is your only representation in our game, gays! Enjoy!"
Goes without saying that this is disgusting, and there should be no defending this kind of hatred. Add Atlus to the list of trash companies.
User Banned (1 Week): Transphobic Rhetoric
Hmmm, the way I see this, I think it's mean to be inferred that the character's life was improved because he was comfortable being born as a male, rather than being uncomfortable. In my eyes, I wouldn't call this "transphobic" but I do agree that it maybe isn't the most tasteful way about tackling the issue. I do believe in the game's story, Erica transistions after a traumatic event happens to her, so perhaps in this ending that event never happened either, thus causing her not to transition.
I defended the way the other people talked to Erica in the bar, as they were all sorta assholes, so I thought that fit pretty well. I thought the dream stuff was a cheap joke that hurt the experience a little.
This... is really fucked. I don't know if they thought they were being progressive, or if they were just taking another swing. It takes an ugly part of the first game and doubles down on it.
The thing is, I really like the original. I want to buy this game, too. However, I am not sure I can justify it. This is ugly.
This... is really fucked. I don't know if they thought they were being progressive, or if they were just taking another swing. It takes an ugly part of the first game and doubles down on it.
The thing is, I really like the original. I want to buy this game, too. However, I am not sure I can justify it. This is ugly.
That's disgusting. The original game already had issues, so for this to double down is absolutely ridiculous.
I guess what bothers me the most is that they could just not do anything. Those two gay characters in P5, for example, add absolutely nothing of value to the story, they could just not exist and everything would be fine.
"Clueless" doesn't really cut it when they go out of their way to add LGBT characters that feel out of place just to make them jokes. In Full Body's case, out of their way to make Erica "not trans" in one of the endings. If they just did nothing, no one would mind.
They keep going the extra mile to do that, this isn't just "ignorance".
"Clueless" doesn't really cut it when they go out of their way to add LGBT characters that feel out of place just to make them jokes. In Full Body's case, out of their way to make Erica "not trans" in one of the endings. If they just did nothing, no one would mind.
They keep going the extra mile to do that, this isn't just "ignorance".
I knew it was a good thing that the original was being preserved on Steam.
Which part in P3? I beat the game 2 years ago but nothing comes to mind atm
The part on the beach during the trip, where they're hitting on women with no luck, then they find a women who is seemingly gagging for it, but then it turns out the women is actually a guy, and everyone is grossed out
Anyway, so that my sole contribution to this thread isn't just a mild defense of Atlus USA, I'd like to add that if my understanding of this content from the thread is correct then this shit is fucked up.
Really glad it's blowing up on Twitter to the extent that it is. It would be cool if Atlus is taken to task in a way that might possibly make a difference in their output finally.
Really glad it's blowing up on Twitter to the extent that it is. It would be cool if Atlus is taken to task in a way that might possibly make a difference in their output finally.
User Banned (Permanent): Excusing transphobia, antagonizing other members, ignoring modpost, and previous severe infractions
???
The game makes no value judgement whatsoever about this being a "better" life for Erica, the ending isn't about Erica at all. This is literally alternate reality hijinks with no message whatsoever besides "things sure turned out differently in this bizarro dimension".
Same with the thread-marked post and how the game is bad about these issues because Vincent "hits" Rin or whatever. He slaps her hand to the side when she tries to touch his face in a moment of confusion. Yet in that post it comes across as if Vincent punches her in the face upon finding out that she's a dude or something like that.
You want to talk about trans issues and how they are presented in Catherine? Sure, why not. What I don't get is the desire to always go the extra mile and dramatize. Like, does indignity feel that good or what?
The game makes no value judgement whatsoever about this being a "better" life for Erica, the ending isn't about Erica at all. This is literally alternate reality hijinks with no message whatsoever besides "things sure turned out differently in this bizarro dimension".
Same with the thread-marked post and how the game is bad about these issues because Vincent "hits" Rin or whatever. He slaps her hand to the side when she tries to touch his face in a moment of confusion. Yet in that post it comes across as if Vincent punches her in the face upon finding out that she's a dude or something like that.
You want to talk about trans issues and how they are presented in Catherine? Sure, why not. What I don't get is the desire to always go the extra mile and dramatize. Like, does indignity feel that good or what?
Even if Atlus USA handle this responsibly, someone's head needs to roll in Japan for this. Actively boycotting by cancelling preorders and swearing off purchasing ALL of Atlus' games going forward unless reparations are made is the only responsible way as consumers that we can go about dealing with this.
I'm not versed on how trans people are perceived in Japan. Is this indicative of Japanese society as a whole ?
I see where you're coming from, but no other character has their gender swapped in this ending. It's true that it's not saying it's a better life for Erica, but the idea is "Eric is still a dude here!", as if being a woman wasn't an integral part of her being, but just something that happened and could maybe not happen. Not having transitioned for one reason or another sure, but being totally ok with that shows that being a woman wasn't necessarily part of who she was, while everyone else seems to be the exact same, personality-wise, and just in a different situation. Even the clothes are the same for everyone else, they only went through the trouble of redesigning Erica.
It is a statement about being trans, one way or another.
Erica and Eric are two versions of the same character at different points in time that are voiced by the same VA that also voices other characters.
So there's no "why" to wonder about.
Wasn't she still deadnamed in the original credits where she never appears as Eric?
Erica and Eric are two versions of the same character at different points in time that are voiced by the same VA that also voices other characters.
So there's no "why" to wonder about.
I expect nothing from Atlus in the diversity line and they still manage to get me deeply disappointed.
How a company that makes games with themes of challenging rules, making your own path, and defying the status quo manages to be this retrograde and tone-deaf is beyond me.
How a company that makes games with themes of challenging rules, making your own path, and defying the status quo manages to be this retrograde and tone-deaf is beyond me.
If this is true is it possible Erica would still transition in the future or do they remove that entirely? It's a little better with this context but concerning
Being honest, I'm actually surprised people thought Atlus would try to be progressive. Countless times they have proved to everyone they are big bigots. With Persona 3 and the MC can't have platonic friendship with girls, or P4 with Hanamura bullying Kanji because he doesn't like 'male' stuff or P5 mocking LGBT people and their replies as to why they refuse to add a Female Protagonist. Atlus are bigots. Period. And best we can do is to boycott their products until they change.
Yeah, it's definitely less aggressive, but it's still that issue of "why do they keep going out of their way?", why not just use the same design for adult Erica like they did with everyone else, and not touch on that at all? Why even add gay characters to P5 if the only reason they exist is to be the butt of a recurring joke?
The more times this happens in Atlus games, specifically ones Hashino is involved with, the less possible answers we're left with.
It's doubly frustrating as I really love P5 or Catherine when it genuinely wants to tackle more adult themes, or challenging the status quo, and really not a lot of games do that as a whole. You feel there's PART of an understanding in there. But somehow it completely refuses to involve LGBT people in the mix. It's what makes it doubly frustrating for me as a fan of most Atlus games that you have this gaping hole in what otherwise would be some really good stuff overall.
My only hope is that japanese players will be loud enough to actually get to the ears of the devs, since even Atlus USA can't seem to reach them, but i'm not super hopeful :/ (not that japanese players won't also complain as evidently they also do, but that Atlus JP and the media relaying to them would listen to them in the first place)
Erica and Eric are two versions of the same character at different points in time that are voiced by the same VA that also voices other characters.
So there's no "why" to wonder about.
She was deadnamedin the original credits as well as the original art book. You're giving them a pass for no reason here
Yes. Also note she isn't referred to as Erica she's referred to as EricA, which as far as I recall is never the case in the actual game. It's just done to double down on the deadnaming.
And they could just leave all of that out, right? People always ask for more LGBT representation in general, but I've never seen people grabbing pitchforks against specific games because they don't have a trans character. Just don't do anything if you mean no harm.
If Catherine never had a trans character, no one would call them out for this. If the gay characters in P5 didn't exist, no one would complain about it, at most you'd see people saying "I really hope we eventually get a Persona game where we can be gay". It's not that hard to do nothing.
I am not giving them a pass.
I'm saying those credits, in this version of the game, are fine since you see both and they are voiced by the same actress.
The original artbook literally dead named her entirely. This lists both names.
I think the treatment of Naoto in P4 is just as bad.
Spoilers for Naoto's story arc in P4 and P4A:
Spoilers for Naoto's story arc in P4 and P4A:
I'll refer to Naoto with male pronouns, because that's what the character itself does even after the others find out he is biologically female.
- The big bad of Naoto's dungeon is a sex change operation.
- His friends are relieved to find out he's a "girl" and basically explain away his male "costume" as a phase.
- Then he is immediately signed up to be part of a swim wear beauty pageant, and made to have a bath scene with the girls who comment on how big his breasts are.
- "I was afraid back there" he says about the dungeon, and the others proceed to comment "well that's only natural since you're a girl!"
- If you want the MC to date Naoto, after the latter talks about how he wishes he had been born as a boy the MC expresses how he is happy and thankful that he's actually a "girl". The MC can then proceed to ask Naoto to speak in a lighter tone because he should sound more feminine to reflect this fact.
Keep in mind, throughout all of this Naoto not only keeps using male pronouns when talking about himself, but still speaks with a lower pitch and even in the direct sequel P4A we find out he still binds his breasts, much to Teddie's dismay.
- The big bad of Naoto's dungeon is a sex change operation.
- His friends are relieved to find out he's a "girl" and basically explain away his male "costume" as a phase.
- Then he is immediately signed up to be part of a swim wear beauty pageant, and made to have a bath scene with the girls who comment on how big his breasts are.
- "I was afraid back there" he says about the dungeon, and the others proceed to comment "well that's only natural since you're a girl!"
- If you want the MC to date Naoto, after the latter talks about how he wishes he had been born as a boy the MC expresses how he is happy and thankful that he's actually a "girl". The MC can then proceed to ask Naoto to speak in a lighter tone because he should sound more feminine to reflect this fact.
Keep in mind, throughout all of this Naoto not only keeps using male pronouns when talking about himself, but still speaks with a lower pitch and even in the direct sequel P4A we find out he still binds his breasts, much to Teddie's dismay.
Exactly. It somehow goes out of its way to say those specific things, and I just don't get it. I don't get how in a game where it very much made its homework about sexual freedom/agency or social consciousness that they would also go "haha but gays tho right". It's just baffling to me.
Someone pointed out on twitter like how even Yakuza, a franchise that in itself isn't always great when it comes to representation but does a WAY better job somehow with those elements (specifically a sidequest in Kiwami 2 even). It's a weird timeline
Except even when they call her by her actual name they still call back to her deadname by making the A capitalised so that it makes the Eric part stand out.
If you want to really feel weird about this, consider how you don't see any of Sugiyama's horrible values in the games he works on and even partially owns the rights to.
You'll literally be seeing more of Sugiyama's views playing Hashino games than the games he actually worked on.
At least from what I've seen around here, I'm not a Dragon Quest fan myself, so it's entirely possible that I'm wrong.
It has been forever since I played Catherine, but isn't the entirety of the game based around a crazy god's idea that men and women need to get married and have children and so he kills a bunch of men that are not progressing towards marriage? I don't recall the game framing it as if the god's idea is correct, and the protagonist seems to go sharply against that idea in multiple endings, asserting that people should be free to choose whatever the hell they want. Indeed, I recall choice being the main theme of Catherine, though that may be different in Full Body, which is unfortunate if so.
Japan is an extremely tight laced homogenous society with very little diversity in terms of difference ethnicities and sexual orientations...even if many LGBT Japanese people feel that inside they probably wouldn't want to express it due to disappointing their family. Imagine being a gay Japanese male and having to tell your parents your bloodline isn't going to continue.
I'm not saying it excuses their insensitivity regarding these issues that keep popping up in games, but I think they just don't constantly talk about social issues and race relations in the way the west does. It's very different there.
Once again not saying it excuses behavior but it's easy to see how this keeps happening.
I'm not saying it excuses their insensitivity regarding these issues that keep popping up in games, but I think they just don't constantly talk about social issues and race relations in the way the west does. It's very different there.
Once again not saying it excuses behavior but it's easy to see how this keeps happening.
Hashino is a fucking garbage monster who by some fucking chance sometimes comes up with a good idea and then pisses on it from a roof. It always happens. Ann's story in P5? Let's counter that off with the shit with Yusuke and P5D. The reason for Futaba's palace manifesting? Let's solve her lifelong trauma with a couple of ingame days and then toss her in a bikini to top it off. Kanji and Naoto? Need I even begin?
Get rid of him. I'm sure someone else can do good with Soejima's art and Meguro's music.
Get rid of him. I'm sure someone else can do good with Soejima's art and Meguro's music.
Yeah, Yakuza has its issues, but at times it shows that the main protagonist is a somewhat decent human being.
Yeah I dunno why some people are thinking of what if scenarios and other stuff when it's not Atlus first rodeo into transphobia. Dunno what more needs to be done to people understand that folks at JP Atlus are, indeed, transphobic.
And then imagine how a dev could maybe introduce a character to defend LGBT rights, but instead what they do is to keep mocking them. Atlus already acknowledge LGBT people exist, and acknowledge they face issues, but instead of trying to portray them in a positive light they keep shitting the bed. There's no excuse to do this even in Japan.
That is true, but it's not really related to the complaints here, because it doesn't involve either the player or Erica herself. Catherine goes back in time to change the past so her and Vincent can meet earlier and things turn out different.
Everyone turns out exactly the same, down to the costume design, except for one of them. Erica is apparently now a guy, and she's totally fine with that. Catherine changing the past had such a strong butterfly effect that it changed the gender identity of a teenager, but it wasn't strong enough to change how the others would dress in a few years?
No matter how generous towards the game and the devs you try to be in your interpretation, I can't see any scenario that makes this change alright. It says a lot about their thoughts on trans people, no matter how you frame it.
Full Body actually leans even further into the theme of doing what you want. The new route has a number of unlock requirements where it asks whether you care about the opinions of others, whether you are afraid of new things, or whether you trust your heart above all else etc. I do think the Erica stuff is poor, but the attitude towards same-sex relationships and people living their lives the way they want to that the Rin route has makes me think that they really are just making ignorant mistakes rather than actually trying to offend anyone.
I know you're banned and everything but hoooooooly shit fuck off.
Also people should REALLY check the damn threadmarks.
Also, PLAY THE MISSING, EVERYONE.
It is true that Japan has its own issues with that, but one of the most beautiful representations came from them as well, it's not like you're condemned to treat LGBT people like this just because you were born in Japan. Japanese people are also capable of at the very least know when to shut up and not include something.
And I'm not trying to silence Hashino or whatever someone may read into this, I'm mostly trying to refute the "clueless" claims. It happened more than enough times for that to not hold any water. They're not clueless at all.
When did the transition happen though? Vincent is in his early 30s when the events of Catherine take place, right? What age was he in that time travel ending?
Also, I should point out that Catherine, the succubus, works in tandem with the crazy god for most of the game.
That said, if everyone else is the same age as before and only Erica is now Eric in that ending then that's just fucking disastrously bad. I feel there is more context needed but it looks tonedeaf to the criticism Atlus has faced in the past.
