P6 maybe releasing not 9 years from now, evenI see. Well, that's good. I like Persona a lot but if Full Body is an indication of Hashino at his most "Hashino", then I'd prefer someone else take the reigns. Persona has a lot of bullshit in it but compared to Full Body that all seems like a drop in a bucket and I wouldn't want it to get any worse than it already is.
Considering the original Catherine is approaching being a decade old, the idea that they're just clueless as to how their treatment of this character has gone over just doesn't hold water.
Since when does "doing what they can" = "localizing exactly how Atlus JP wants us to"?I don't know specifics, but my understanding from this thread is that they disagree with Atlus JP on a lot of stuff like this (but aren't typically heard) so have to do what they can regarding localization.
Specifically the trans industry member's post that was threadmarked mentioned this:
So I tend to think this situation (and presumably others) could be a lot worse, even if it sucks as it is.
I knew it was a good thing that the original was being preserved on Steam.I defended the way the other people talked to Erica in the bar, as they were all sorta assholes, so I thought that fit pretty well. I thought the dream stuff was a cheap joke that hurt the experience a little.
This... is really fucked. I don't know if they thought they were being progressive, or if they were just taking another swing. It takes an ugly part of the first game and doubles down on it.
The thing is, I really like the original. I want to buy this game, too. However, I am not sure I can justify it. This is ugly.
Which part in P3? I beat the game 2 years ago but nothing comes to mind atmThis is pretty fucking bad. Atlus really need to sort themselves out with this kind of thing. I beat Persona 3 recently and there was one part that was pretty awful in that too, but this is orders of magnitude more offensive
That said, I'm glad the sites stance is not to ban the game. I prefer that we discuss, condemn and let our thoughts be known, rather than brushing it away and pretending it doesn't exist
Which part in P3? I beat the game 2 years ago but nothing comes to mind atm
Even if Atlus USA handle this responsibly, someone's head needs to roll in Japan for this. Actively boycotting by cancelling preorders and swearing off purchasing ALL of Atlus' games going forward unless reparations are made is the only responsible way as consumers that we can go about dealing with this.biggest question is how with Atlus USA tackle this. probably ignore it and wait it out. there's no way to defend this, unless they edit it to be less offensive
I see where you're coming from, but no other character has their gender swapped in this ending. It's true that it's not saying it's a better life for Erica, but the idea is "Eric is still a dude here!", as if being a woman wasn't an integral part of her being, but just something that happened and could maybe not happen. Not having transitioned for one reason or another sure, but being totally ok with that shows that being a woman wasn't necessarily part of who she was, while everyone else seems to be the exact same, personality-wise, and just in a different situation. Even the clothes are the same for everyone else, they only went through the trouble of redesigning Erica.???
The game makes no value judgement whatsoever about this being a "better" life for Erica, the ending isn't about Erica at all. This is literally alternate reality hijinks with no message whatsoever besides "things sure turned out differently in this bizarro dimension".
Same with the thread-marked post and how the game is bad about these issues because Vincent "hits" Rin or whatever. He slaps her hand to the side when she tries to touch his face in a moment of confusion. Yet in that post it comes across as if Vincent punches her in the face upon finding out that she's a dude or something like that.
You want to talk about trans issues and how they are presented in Catherine? Sure, why not. What I don't get is the desire to always go the extra mile and dramatize. Like, does indignity feel that good or what?
I am, and I'm not the first to mention there's no specific mention of the alternate dimension that Catherine creates being one where "everyone is happier".
This is the scene in question, obvious spoilers: https://sendvid.com/39ldd924 . Vincent mentions "お互い、もっと違って形で出会えてればな", showing his feelings for Catherine and wishing that they could have met under different circumstances. Catherine then reassures him and creates a portal where they go back in time, in an alternative reality where they're classmates in highschool and end up marrying later.
I think it's absolutely fair to ask why Erika hasn't transitioned in the wedding scene, or why Erica is deadnamed in the credits, but the idea that "Catherine goes back in time to make everyone happier and makes Erika not trans" seems to be completely false.
Wasn't she still deadnamed in the original credits where she never appears as Eric?
Erica and Eric are two versions of the same character at different points in time that are voiced by the same VA that also voices other characters.
So there's no "why" to wonder about.
That's because she didn't, she never said she was going back in time to improve everyone's lives. She goes back in time to create a timeline in which her and Vincent could meet earlier, under different circumstances.
I don't know why you guys are always so surprised to see homophobic/transphobic shit come out of Japan.
(I'm not saying this is OK, or that Atlus shouldn't get raked over the coals for this, because it absolutely isn't and they absolutely should.)
The forum rules include a list of games that people are prohibited from discussing.
Yeah, it's definitely less aggressive, but it's still that issue of "why do they keep going out of their way?", why not just use the same design for adult Erica like they did with everyone else, and not touch on that at all? Why even add gay characters to P5 if the only reason they exist is to be the butt of a recurring joke?If this is true is it possible Erica would still transition in the future or do they remove that entirely? It's a little better with this context but concerning
Yeah, it's definitely less aggressive, but it's still that issue of "why do they keep going out of their way?", why not just use the same design for adult Erica like they did with everyone else, and not touch on that at all? Why even add gay characters to P5 if the only reason they exist is to be the butt of a recurring joke?
The more times this happens in Atlus games, specifically ones Hashino is involved with, the less possible answers we're left with.
Erica and Eric are two versions of the same character at different points in time that are voiced by the same VA that also voices other characters.
So there's no "why" to wonder about.
Yes. Also note she isn't referred to as Erica she's referred to as EricA, which as far as I recall is never the case in the actual game. It's just done to double down on the deadnaming.Wasn't she still deadnamed in the original credits where she never appears as Eric?
And they could just leave all of that out, right? People always ask for more LGBT representation in general, but I've never seen people grabbing pitchforks against specific games because they don't have a trans character. Just don't do anything if you mean no harm.It's doubly frustrating as I really love P5 or Catherine when it genuinely wants to tackle more adult themes, or challenging the status quo, and really not a lot of games do that as a whole. You feel there's PART of an understanding in there. But somehow it completely refuses to involve LGBT people in the mix. It's what makes it doubly frustrating for me as a fan of most Atlus games that you have this gaping hole in what otherwise would be some really good stuff overall.
My only hope is that japanese players will be loud enough to actually get to the ears of the devs, since even Atlus USA can't seem to reach them, but i'm not super hopeful :/ (not that japanese players won't also complain as evidently they also do, but that Atlus JP and the media relaying to them would listen to them in the first place)
She was deadnamedin the original credits as well as the original art book. You're giving them a pass for no reason here
And they could just leave all of that out, right? People always ask for more LGBT representation in general, but I've never seen people grabbing pitchforks against specific games because they don't have a trans character. Just don't do anything if you mean no harm.
If Catherine never had a trans character, no one would call them out for this. If the gay characters in P5 didn't exist, no one would complain about it, at most you'd see people saying "I really hope we eventually get a Persona game where we can be gay". It's not that hard to do nothing.
Except even when they call her by her actual name they still call back to her deadname by making the A capitalised so that it makes the Eric part stand out.I am not giving them a pass.
I'm saying those credits, in this version of the game, are fine since you see both and they are voiced by the same actress.
The original artbook literally dead named her entirely. This lists both names.
If you want to really feel weird about this, consider how you don't see any of Sugiyama's horrible values in the games he works on and even partially owns the rights to.Exactly. It somehow goes out of its way to say those specific things, and I just don't get it. I don't get how in a game where it very much made its homework about sexual freedom/agency or social consciousness that they would also go "haha but gays tho right". It's just baffling to me.
Someone pointed out on twitter like how even Yakuza, a franchise that in itself isn't always great when it comes to representation but does a WAY better job somehow with those elements (specifically a sidequest in Kiwami 2 even). It's a weird timeline
Exactly. It somehow goes out of its way to say those specific things, and I just don't get it. I don't get how in a game where it very much made its homework about sexual freedom/agency or social consciousness that they would also go "haha but gays tho right". It's just baffling to me.
Someone pointed out on twitter like how even Yakuza, a franchise that in itself isn't always great when it comes to representation but does a WAY better job somehow with those elements (specifically a sidequest in Kiwami 2 even). It's a weird timeline
Being honest, I'm actually surprised people thought Atlus would try to be progressive. Countless times they have proved to everyone they are big bigots. With Persona 3 and the MC can't have platonic friendship with girls, or P4 with Hanamura bullying Kanji because he doesn't like 'male' stuff or P5 mocking LGBT people and their replies as to why they refuse to add a Female Protagonist. Atlus are bigots. Period. And best we can do is to boycott their products until they change.
Japan is an extremely tight laced homogenous society with very little diversity in terms of difference ethnicities and sexual orientations...even if many LGBT Japanese people feel that inside they probably wouldn't want to express it due to disappointing their family. Imagine being a gay Japanese male and having to tell your parents your bloodline isn't going to continue.
That is true, but it's not really related to the complaints here, because it doesn't involve either the player or Erica herself. Catherine goes back in time to change the past so her and Vincent can meet earlier and things turn out different.It has been forever since I played Catherine, but isn't the entirety of the game based around a crazy god's idea that men and women need to get married and have children and so he kills a bunch of men that are not progressing towards marriage? I don't recall the game framing it as if the god's idea is correct, and the protagonist seems to go sharply against that idea in multiple endings, asserting that people should be free to choose whatever the hell they want. Indeed, I recall choice being the main theme of Catherine, though that may be different in Full Body, which is unfortunate if so.
It has been forever since I played Catherine, but isn't the entirety of the game based around a crazy god's idea that men and women need to get married and have children and so he kills a bunch of men that are not progressing towards marriage? I don't recall the gaming framing it as if the god's idea is correct, and the protagonist seems to go sharply against that idea in multiple endings, asserting that people should be free to choose whatever the hell they want. Indeed, I recall choice being the main theme of Catherine, though that may be different in Full Body, which is unfortunate if so.
I know you're banned and everything but hoooooooly shit fuck off.Doesn't sound offensive to me, it's a ficitional character with a ficitional story...
And then imagine how a dev could maybe introduce a character to defend LGBT rights, but instead what they do is to keep mocking them. Atlus already acknowledge LGBT people exist, and acknowledge they face issues, but instead of trying to portray them in a positive light they keep shitting the bed. There's no excuse to do this even in Japan.
When did the transition happen though? Vincent is in his early 30s when the events of Catherine take place, right? What age was he in that time travel ending?That is true, but it's not really related to the complaints here, because it doesn't involve either the player or Erica herself. Catherine goes back in time to change the past so her and Vincent can meet earlier and things turn out different.
Everyone turns out exactly the same, down to the costume design, except for one of them. Erica is apparently now a guy, and she's totally fine with that. Catherine changing the past had such a strong butterfly effect that it changed the gender identity of a teenager, but it wasn't strong enough to change how the others would dress in a few years?
No matter how generous towards the game and the devs you try to be in your interpretation, I can't see any scenario that makes this change alright. It says a lot about their thoughts on trans people, no matter how you frame it.
Well there's no P6 as of now so....Anyway, Hashino isn't involved with P6 is he? I remember reading something once about him stepping out of directorial duties or whatever. Is there any truth to that?