Glad someone made this comparison
The thing is, they maybe could've gotten away with text of that size if they had used a more legible font. But they used an old style one with moderate stroke contrast and a really low x-height. And the Switch's low pixel density only compounds the issue. Just terrible.
The entire medium is drowning in awful typographic decisions and I hate it.
Nintendo's almost maliciously anti-accessibility options. It's insane, especially with their whole "games for everyone" stance.Nintendo loves to make games accessible*
Unless you have a disability
Nintendo's almost maliciously anti-accessibility options. It's insane, especially with their whole "games for everyone" stance.
And when somebody uses a good, readable font, people complain that "it looks like a shitty mobile game", etc. Complaining about widely accepted readable standards is unfortunately criticized, which leads to developers trying to re-invent the wheel.
Here is a comparison of Japanese vs English gameplay.
Notice how they made the "Lv" and "HP" font smaller and less readable in the English version?
Japanese version had it perfect, but no, Western localization staff always knows best. "Let's make the text smaller and use a serif font on top of that, to make it even less convenient to read!"
This is a common issue with Japanese games localized into English by the way. It's exactly the same with Dragon Quest 11 for example. Instead of going with the classic, simple Japanese font they had to choose a serif font.
(Sorry for somewhat bad quality)
Seriously, what the hell with some people. "I have a huge ass TV so there's no issue"An even worse trend here is the lack of empathy towards people who might struggle with things that you don't struggle with.
It's freaking huge when docked. Even in handheld mode it's quite large (but acceptable for the format).Yea, but funny thing is, it's successor, Xenoblade 2, has perfect text size in both TV and handheld mode.
You won't be able to do it dude. Unless your eyes are super good.I hope this isn't the case but it looks like it's gonna be a nightmare on tabletop mode.
Unfortunately, I only like playing on tabletop mode.You won't be able to do it dude. Unless your eyes are super good.
Regarding DQXI, which font does the japanese version use in comparison?Here is a comparison of Japanese vs English gameplay.
Notice how they made the "Lv" and "HP" font smaller and less readable in the English version?
Japanese version had it perfect, but no, Western localization staff always knows best. "Let's make the text smaller and use a serif font on top of that, to make it even less convenient to read!"
This is a common issue with Japanese games localized into English by the way. It's exactly the same with Dragon Quest 11 for example. Instead of going with the classic, simple Japanese font they had to choose a serif font.
(Sorry for somewhat bad quality)
Come on, all I can do in this matter is try to bring as much attention to this problem as possible and that's exactly what I do.I mean he literally hasnt said anything yet, the op is doing little more than patting themselves on the back at the moment
I don't know, but at least it's not serif.Regarding DQXI, which font does the japanese version use in comparison?
Just keep tweeting to the various Nintendo channels (@NintendoAmerica, @NintendoEurope, @NintendoUK) and media outlets like IGN, Gamespot, Kotaku, Gameinformer, Polygon... Gain as much attention as possible.You won't be able to do it dude. Unless your eyes are super good.
Who did the translation on this? Has there been any word?
Can we contact them via Twitter or something?
Thanks for your input! Interesting read, and it seems you know what you are talking about.I admit that there is a dissonance I can't shake when I see characters in medieval games speaking in Arial. But there are a billion ways to achieve legibility while maintaining stylistic consistency—and I never see them in games. It feels like UI designers all either care about the aesthetics to a fault or not at all.
It was a bad decision, but I get the thought process behind decreasing the size of the labels in your first example.
The font size of the HP and level is almost the same as that of their labels. This might not be a problem if it weren't for the fact that there's a vast ocean of empty space between the labels and the values they're labeling; there's no hierarchy to that text.
Differentiating that text does more to let the player know that these are labels, and better visually emphasizes the important info (the level and HP). Though obviously it would be better if the level, 12, were closer to its label than to HP, a totally unrelated one. I don't know enough about the technical aspects of game localization, but the spacing issue strikes me as something the localizers were aware of but were for some reason unable to change.
I dont disagree the intent is well intentioned, but I dont agree with how we are getting there right now. This just seems self aggrandizing to me to make a whole update that you got a retweet off of what essentially isnt fully disclosing what you are showing. Point being was Tim Rogers hasnt done anything of substance thoughCome on, all I can do in this matter is try to bring as much attention to this problem as possible and that's exactly what I do.
At least we are getting somewhere.I dont disagree the intent is well intentioned, but I dont agree with how we are getting there right now. This just seems self aggrandizing to me to make a whole update that you got a retweet off of what essentially isnt fully disclosing what you are showing. Point being was Tim Rogers hasnt done anything of substance though
We have gotten exactly nowhere thoughAt least we are getting somewhere.
The "Tim Rogers" update was just done to give readers here at least some feel of relevance and progression on this topic, and to gain more attention, which seems to work.
You keep complaining, I keep trying at least.
I think there is something to be said about moderation, but A for effort
Fair enough.
What do you say about the movie subtitles comparison mentioned earlier? I would guess there is a reason professional movie subtitles are big, simple and readable with no-nonsense fonts - game fonts in comparison look incredibly amateurish to me.
I definitely agree on the stylistic consistency - the font change in Fire Emblem really messed this up. You can clearly tell which is the new font used for localization and which is the original font. The new font is not just smaller and harder to read but also looks completely out of place ("Lv 15" in above screenshot).
I've got nothing to add to the topic, but instead just want to express that your posts are awesome. I appreciate them and love the insight you provide. Thanks!A big part of why subtitles are much more consistent in their prioritization of legibility over style is down to time. (...)
I've got nothing to add to the topic, but instead just want to express that your posts are awesome. I appreciate them and love the insight you provide. Thanks!
Really? I remember some fonts literally being too small for 480p and just being a blur haha.I played plenty of this in handheld mode and I don't remember having any issues with it.
The font itself is horrible and makes me tired when i play this game for longer.
and yes, it is too small
Really? I remember some fonts literally being too small for 480p and just being a blur haha.
Avatar's biggest crime (aside from being an ugly and uninteresting piece of crap) is that it uses Papyrus for its subtitles.
Add me to the list of people who find your posts incredibly interesting and informative. Much appreciated!A big part of why subtitles are much more consistent in their prioritization of legibility over style is down to time.
A single line of text is on screen for maybe a few seconds. If you misread a word or struggle to complete the sentence, you just lost that information. There are no second chances. Like road signs, aesthetic consideration should be near 0. They are there to deliver information and nothing else. It's also so brief a time that you don't even get a chance to notice or ponder the details of a typeface, so a pretty one isn't even likely to be appreciated.
We've all the seen the SNL Avatar Papryus skit, and it shits all over the logo—but Avatar's biggest crime (aside from being an ugly and uninteresting piece of crap) is that it uses Papyrus for its subtitles.
Absolutely disgusting.
I meant that it looks weird when characters in far back, historically inspired settings speak in text that uses "grotesque" sans serifs type, which wasn't a thing prior to the 1800s. The font in my avatar, Franklin Gothic, for example, wasn't created until 1902. It sticks out like a sore thumb when set against a world of kingdoms and crusades. The type they chose for the localization is, in terms of style, much more appropriate than something like Franklin Gothic. But functionally, it's a mistake.
The reason FE's english text kind of sticks out isn't because of the typeface itself, but because the new typeface is being squeezed into a space meant for Japanese type. It's just visibly making poor use of all the space in those text boxes.
Japanese glyphs are roughly square. Put them inside a perfect square box and they fill most of that space. Western upper case letters are mostly the same way, but the majority of the text you're reading is lower case, a thing that doesn't exist in Japanese text, and therefore was not accounted for during development.
You'll notice that the upper case letters in FE's text boxes are roughly as tall as the glyphs in the Japanese version. I suspect this is another technical limitation the localization team had to work with. Increasing the amount of vertical space required to achieve legible lower case letters might have required more tinkering with the game's code than they could manage.
This could have been remedied by choosing a typeface with a taller x-height (the height of the lower case letters in relation to the capital letters), but they didn't do that. Mistakes were made, but I think those mistakes are almost entirely functional, not aesthetic.
I wonder if they chose that typeface primarily with character dialogue in mind, and then just applied that choice to the UI as an afterthought in the name of uniformity. In that regard, I think it's reasonable to give more consideration to aesthetic consistency when choosing a typeface for dialogue boxes because they are less removed from the actual story, setting, and content. In a game with dialogue boxes, the typeface is a key component of the voice in which the characters speak. It can directly impact the way you perceive their words.
In fact, you're statistically a tad more likely to believe a statement is true if it is written in Baskerville vs Times New Roman.
In contrast, HP meters, gauges, stat sheets, etc., are abstractions totally divorced from the game's fiction (you don't ever hear the characters say the words "hit points"), so players will likely be less conscious/more accepting of stylistic inconsistencies.
Though, depending on what type of game youre dealing with, you might have more room for aesthetic considerations in UI elements. For example, when playing an ultra difficult, fast-paced action game, the action on screen requires your constant attention, so you want a simple glance to be enough to register whatever info the UI has for you.
A turn based RPG OTOH hand gives you all the time in the world to evaluate the situation—and more time to notice stylistic inconsistencies in the game's UI. I presume Fire Emblem is turn based, so that might be another motivating factor in their decisions.
The text is too small for TVs too. Dragon Quest Builders 2 is fucking ridiculous with some of its UI text.One of the drawbacks for the switch design. Games wont be made truly with handheld in mind anymore because they're designed to work with TVs primarily.
The text is too small for TVs too. Dragon Quest Builders 2 is fucking ridiculous with some of its UI text.
Can't wait to see some of this shit on the Switch Mini, by the wayI tried the demo only in handheld mode and my fucking god this is true. I could not believe how small some of the text was. How could someone design and implement that and think "yeah this looks good, let's go with that".