Proof that text is for ants
  • Doskoi Panda

    One Winged Slayer
    Member
    Oct 27, 2017
    15,179
    I mean, I get it, it should be bigger for some people, but it's not some fucking tiny text for ants like this thread seems to be indicating.
    LMAO. I was just out playing this game on my porch. I'm looking through a list of students when an ant crawls onto my screen.
    The ant itself was literally bigger than some student's whole names. If the ant had crawled over Hubert's name, it could have covered his name entirely with its body.

    tinytextp1kj6.jpg


    This is my Switch. I put a US 5 cent piece on the screen.
    Note how the text on the damn coin is larger than the text on the screen. I didn't even notice until I was taking the picture.
    See Hubert, Caspar, and Petra on that list there? Any of their names names could fit entirely onto the Switch's tiny tiny face buttons, at that font size. That is not a joke, just look.

    It's l i t e r a l l y tiny text for ants.

    It's really cool that you've got 20/10 vision, I'm pretty jealous. Unfortunately, for all too many of us non-Kryptonians, text that's smaller and less legible than what you'd find on a US coin ain't gonna cut it.

    It's almost impossible to compress that amount of information in a Switch screen size.
    you're kidding, right? there's ample room for bigger text everywhere in this game.
     
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    God of War (PS4) also has tiny text
  • Dice

    Member
    Oct 25, 2017
    22,948
    Canada
    I hate God of War for this right now.

    The amount of negative space vs. data is absurd

    04-01.jpg


    andy-lang-andylang3-weaponsscreen.jpg


    I don't care if it makes it look sleek, I'm squinting way too much and I'm not even in a big room.
     
    Comparison to Blu-Ray subtitles
  • OP
    OP
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    I need to see it actually running undocked rather than just docked screenshots.

    On TV and monitor the size is fine imo.
    This is Nintendo Threehouse gameplay on my TV.

    D-3sdtUXUAEjrnE


    This is Edge of Tomorrow with subtitles, same viewing distance.

    D-3sePMWwAADmKo


    Why do videogame subtitles have to be so freaking small?
     
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    Xenoblade 2 has very good font + text size
  • LinkStrikesBack

    One Winged Slayer
    Member
    Oct 27, 2017
    16,559
    The game is designed to be played at home, awakening was designed for a handheld

    Well, then they fucked up, because the switch has always been more popularly used as a handheld than as a docked device.

    Not that it matters: a large more legible is an improvement on a TV as well as on handheld. That font is simply too small. It also contrasts poorly with the text box. The example from xenoblade 2 in the above link is way better.

    94eb77_bf55243c30d649d1bbc9603c363a4724~mv2.webp


    Why 480p? If the Wii U could handle that, then even switch undocked can handle 720p
    They said 480p because that was what that displayed at on a Wii u gamepad. It was literally impossible for me to read anything on the gamepad from xenoblade X.
     
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    English version has smaller text and worse font vs Japanese, Dragon Quest 11 too
  • OP
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    Here is a comparison of Japanese vs English gameplay.

    EAPN3QIXoAEvFn7.jpg



    Notice how they made the "Lv" and "HP" font smaller and less readable in the English version?


    EAPN7kKXUAA8YT6.jpg


    Japanese version had it perfect, but no, Western localization staff always knows best. "Let's make the text smaller and use a serif font on top of that, to make it even less convenient to read!"

    This is a common issue with Japanese games localized into English by the way. It's exactly the same with Dragon Quest 11 for example. Instead of going with the classic, simple Japanese font they had to choose a serif font.

    EAPX4SqWkAAmsYM.jpg


    (Sorry for somewhat bad quality)
     
    #1 In Depth insight on what is wrong with the font by fontguy
  • fontguy

    Avenger
    Oct 8, 2018
    16,256
    The thing is, they maybe could've gotten away with text of that size if they had used a more legible font. But they used an old style one with moderate stroke contrast and a really low x-height. And the Switch's low pixel density only compounds the issue. Just terrible.

    The entire medium is drowning in awful typographic decisions and I hate it.
     
    #2 In Depth insight on what is wrong with the font by fontguy
  • fontguy

    Avenger
    Oct 8, 2018
    16,256
    And when somebody uses a good, readable font, people complain that "it looks like a shitty mobile game", etc. Complaining about widely accepted readable standards is unfortunately criticized, which leads to developers trying to re-invent the wheel.

    I admit that there is a dissonance I can't shake when I see characters in medieval games speaking in Arial. But there are a billion ways to achieve legibility while maintaining stylistic consistency—and I never see them in games. It feels like UI designers all either care about the aesthetics to a fault or not at all.

    Here is a comparison of Japanese vs English gameplay.

    EAPN3QIXoAEvFn7.jpg



    Notice how they made the "Lv" and "HP" font smaller and less readable in the English version?


    EAPN7kKXUAA8YT6.jpg


    Japanese version had it perfect, but no, Western localization staff always knows best. "Let's make the text smaller and use a serif font on top of that, to make it even less convenient to read!"

    This is a common issue with Japanese games localized into English by the way. It's exactly the same with Dragon Quest 11 for example. Instead of going with the classic, simple Japanese font they had to choose a serif font.

    EAPX4SqWkAAmsYM.jpg


    (Sorry for somewhat bad quality)

    It was a bad decision, but I get the thought process behind decreasing the size of the labels in your first example.

    The font size of the HP and level is almost the same as that of their labels. This might not be a problem if it weren't for the fact that there's a vast ocean of empty space between the labels and the values they're labeling; there's no hierarchy to that text.

    Differentiating that text does more to let the player know that these are labels, and better visually emphasizes the important info (the level and HP). Though obviously it would be better if the level, 12, were closer to its label than to HP, a totally unrelated one. I don't know enough about the technical aspects of game localization, but the spacing issue strikes me as something the localizers were aware of but were for some reason unable to change.
     
    #3 In Depth insight on what is wrong with the font by fontguy
  • fontguy

    Avenger
    Oct 8, 2018
    16,256
    What do you say about the movie subtitles comparison mentioned earlier? I would guess there is a reason professional movie subtitles are big, simple and readable with no-nonsense fonts - game fonts in comparison look incredibly amateurish to me.

    A big part of why subtitles are much more consistent in their prioritization of legibility over style is down to time.

    A single line of text is on screen for maybe a few seconds. If you misread a word or struggle to complete the sentence, you just lost that information. There are no second chances. Like road signs, aesthetic consideration should be near 0. They are there to deliver information and nothing else. It's also so brief a time that you don't even get a chance to notice or ponder the details of a typeface, so a pretty one isn't even likely to be appreciated.

    We've all the seen the SNL Avatar Papryus skit, and it shits all over the logo—but Avatar's biggest crime (aside from being an ugly and uninteresting piece of crap) is that it uses Papyrus for its subtitles.

    HO9pyaVN_o.jpg


    Absolutely disgusting.

    I definitely agree on the stylistic consistency - the font change in Fire Emblem really messed this up. You can clearly tell which is the new font used for localization and which is the original font. The new font is not just smaller and harder to read but also looks completely out of place ("Lv 15" in above screenshot).

    I meant that it looks weird when characters in far back, historically inspired settings speak in text that uses "grotesque" sans serifs type, which wasn't a thing prior to the 1800s. The font in my avatar, Franklin Gothic, for example, wasn't created until 1902. It sticks out like a sore thumb when set against a world of kingdoms and crusades. The type they chose for the localization is, in terms of style, much more appropriate than something like Franklin Gothic. But functionally, it's a mistake.

    The reason FE's english text kind of sticks out isn't because of the typeface itself, but because the new typeface is being squeezed into a space meant for Japanese type. It's just visibly making poor use of all the space in those text boxes.

    Japanese glyphs are roughly square. Put them inside a perfect square box and they fill most of that space. Western upper case letters are mostly the same way, but the majority of the text you're reading is lower case, a thing that doesn't exist in Japanese text, and therefore was not accounted for during development.

    cACUPzFa_o.jpeg


    You'll notice that the upper case letters in FE's text boxes are roughly as tall as the glyphs in the Japanese version. I suspect this is another technical limitation the localization team had to work with. Increasing the amount of vertical space required to achieve legible lower case letters might have required more tinkering with the game's code than they could manage.

    This could have been remedied by choosing a typeface with a taller x-height (the height of the lower case letters in relation to the capital letters), but they didn't do that. Mistakes were made, but I think those mistakes are almost entirely functional, not aesthetic.

    I wonder if they chose that typeface primarily with character dialogue in mind, and then just applied that choice to the UI as an afterthought in the name of uniformity. In that regard, I think it's reasonable to give more consideration to aesthetic consistency when choosing a typeface for dialogue boxes because they are less removed from the actual story, setting, and content. In a game with dialogue boxes, the typeface is a key component of the voice in which the characters speak. It can directly impact the way you perceive their words.

    In fact, you're statistically a tad more likely to believe a statement is true if it is written in Baskerville vs Times New Roman.


    In contrast, HP meters, gauges, stat sheets, etc., are abstractions totally divorced from the game's fiction (you don't ever hear the characters say the words "hit points"), so players will likely be less conscious/more accepting of stylistic inconsistencies.

    Though, depending on what type of game youre dealing with, you might have more room for aesthetic considerations in UI elements. For example, when playing an ultra difficult, fast-paced action game, the action on screen requires your constant attention, so you want a simple glance to be enough to register whatever info the UI has for you.

    A turn based RPG OTOH hand gives you all the time in the world to evaluate the situation—and more time to notice stylistic inconsistencies in the game's UI. I presume Fire Emblem is turn based, so that might be another motivating factor in their decisions.
     
    #4 In Depth insight on what is wrong with the font by fontguy
  • fontguy

    Avenger
    Oct 8, 2018
    16,256
    The font itself is horrible and makes me tired when i play this game for longer.

    and yes, it is too small

    The font itself isn't bad (I personally think it's quite attractive). But fonts are tools, and this one is a screwdriver when what they needed was a hammer.

    Really? I remember some fonts literally being too small for 480p and just being a blur haha.

    That's to be expected. The typeface they used is called Futura. It has a really low x-height and a handful of ambiguous characters (the lower case A and O are very hard to distinguish at smaller sizes). It's a very popular choice for video games (I assume because it's gorgeous and very modern-looking despite being nearly a century old), but that x-height means the lower case letters (which are most of the letters on screen) don't occupy most of the space available to them.

    Additionally, in that screenshot there's very little space between individual letters, so it's hard for human eyes to sort of "untangle" them. At small sizes, letters need a lot of breathing room.

    And maybe it's just the low resolution and compression of that screenshot, but it looks like there's a subtle glow added to the colored text. This decreases contrast and erases a lot of the small details your eyes need to distinguish one letter from another.

    They did a bad and not a good.
     
    #5 In Depth insight on what is wrong with the font by fontguy
  • fontguy

    Avenger
    Oct 8, 2018
    16,256
    Add me to the list of people who find your posts incredibly interesting and informative. Much appreciated!

    This is a bit off topic but what is your take on the following font?

    I was viewing gameplay of Trails of Cold Steel for PS4 the other day to decide if I should buy it on sale right now, but the game's font(s) completely turned me off for now. You can tell this is a Japanese game localized into English just by looking at the font (which I think has been used for other Japanese games as well).

    Wow. There's a lot going on here. I'm gonna take this out of order.

    The font also changes its width depending on how much horizontal room it has, which looks completely jarring and unprofessional to me. (A lot of Japanese games do that. Tales of Berseria comes to my mind)

    Simply stretching a typeface distorts the letters and completely messes up the intended thickness of the individual strokes that form the letter. If you stretch a letter horizontally x2, the vertical strokes will double in width, but the horizontal strokes will be unchanged. It looks like crap and it severely harms legibility.

    They chose a nice font for the larger text (strikes a good balance between style and legibility), like the headers, but they also used it for the smaller, more space-limited segments, like the table containing more technical information in the third screenshot. The smaller and more constrained your text becomes, the less room you have for aesthetic considerations.

    Here, using a second, ultra simple font, narrow enough to fit in the tightest spaces without being squished, would be my call. It would lose a little personality and leave a lot of unused space in the boxes that require only a few words, but the alternative is total visual chaos. There's just no room for anything but the absolute most legible typefaces here.

    But it's weird—they did use a second, more legible font, but only for one column of text in that table.

    mb55pVXh_o.jpeg


    Dumb.

    They also centered text in the first column, which is a no-no. Most of the time you want to left-align text in tables, though there are situations where right-aligning might be appropriate. But almost never centered.

    Like, it doesn't give my eyes enough breathing room.

    You're spot on, here. Your eyes absolutely need breathing room.

    Xr5fERVv_o.jpeg


    With normal tracking (the space between letters), that sentence is perfectly readable. With really low tracking, some of those words start to look like gibberish. And I used a very simple, very legible sans serif font here. With such little tracking, it can very easily devolve into totally meaningless scribbles depending on choice of font.

    I find it plain ugly and uncomfortable to read. Poor spacing between characters and words is just one of the reasons why.

    We've covered how letters need space, but just having space isn't enough. The space between letters needs to be visually uniform to maintain a rhythm. Just as you'd struggle to play a rhythm game where the button prompts don't match the beat, your eyes struggle to parse words with uneven spacing. And this dialogue box really wanged that up.

    SCUsNqUZ_o.jpeg


    It almost looks like that font is monospaced (meaning every character occupies the same amount of space). Look at the upper case i's and lower case L's. All the thin letters consistenly exist in these wide open spaces, and the wide letters are all just crashing into eachother.

    In fact, it kinda looks like the font was not originally monospaced, but was sort of retrofitted to make each letter occupy the same amount of space. But even then, the characters in each line don't quite line up with those in the adjacent lines, so I have no idea.

    Nothing here makes any sense, so I again have to imagine there's some arcane technical limitation being dealt with here.

    And of course, stylistically, it just looks completely out of place. It reminds me a lot of the fonts typically used for flip phones in the 2000s. The strokes that make up those letters are all very straight/flat. For example, the descender (the hook-shaped portion) of the lower case G doesn't curve back up towards the circular portion, it jutts straight out. Everything looks like it was constructed using straight lines and right angles, and then the sharp edges were just rounded off afterwards.

    Almost as though it was made to conform to a pixel grid. Like that of a small, low resolution screen on a flip phone.

    In designer parlance, "This shit's all fucked up."
     
    Font is not optimized for Switch screen
  • OP
    OP
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    The font is even too small and flimsy to be properly displayed on the Switch screen. Someone posted this:

     
    Ian Hamilton posted the comparison on Twitter with a lot attention
  • OP
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    The comparison I did is gaining quite some traction on Twitter now. Glad to see.



    Remember to keep tweeting this problem to Nintendo:

    @NintendoAmerica @NintendoDE @NintendoEurope @NintendoUK @ADrakeWasHere @trintran @EditingEntropy
     
    Small Type in a Big Game - Great, detailed blog post on what is wrong with the font and how to fix it
  • Ckoerner

    Member
    Aug 7, 2019
    802
    I'm new here, so if this is not appropriate to share, please let me know. I wrote up a little blog post about this issue. I talk a little about how human vision works, accessibility standards, what improvements might look like, and some of the difficulties the developers have on their hands now that the game is published. Sanity checks and feedback are welcome.

    clkoerner.com

    Small Type in a Big Game

    Fire Emblem: Three Houses suffers from accessibility hindsight If you’re reading this on a desktop computer, this image is roughly the size of the Switch screen. Hold your Switch up to compar…