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Zeliard

Member
Jun 21, 2019
10,987
Yeah, this makes some bosses SO much harder. It doesn't feel like it's intended, considering you can't mount even in the open world during co-op. It'd be a damn chore to help people outside closed areas.

I feel bad to some extent cause I've made several "Radahn ain't all that" comments since I beat him on the first attempt after seeing so much hype and being disappointed, and I didn't get what people on their 15th attempt were dying to, but I totally get it if you tried to summon help for him. It really crystallizes the difficulty.

When you can't quickly switch to the horse, forget about it. You *need* the horse after the initial bombardment. It makes it so much more feasible. You just run away from the scary shit, then come back and slap him.

When you're in co-op without the horse, though, he's like Margit on steroids. Even worse is you have to keep yourself from laughing because it's Margit on the world's tiniest horse galloping around. You can't focus too much when you're laughing, which seems intentional tbh.

That's a fucking rough co-op fight, man. For people who just rolled through the game effortlessly, go back and try to help people beat Radahn. That's an event.
 

Astro Cat

Member
Mar 29, 2019
7,745
oh

the lady in the
liurna or the lake gazeebo that invites you the volcano manor
actually mentions the shortcut to get to
altus plateau without having the medallion.
I didn't notice the first time.

I love how the game actually tells you this type of shit.
I activated my first great rune and spent an hour trying to find her, even knowing where she was supposed to be. I guess I just kept missing her. Then,
I got to the Manor and the prison cell and holy shit. I'm level 68 and I feel like I'm under leveled for that whole area.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,306
oh

the lady in the
liurna or the lake gazeebo that invites you the volcano manor
actually mentions the shortcut to get to
altus plateau without having the medallion.
I didn't notice the first time.

I love how the game actually tells you this type of shit.
Rya mentions the precipice?

I activated my first great rune and spent an hour trying to find her, even knowing where she was supposed to be. I guess I just kept missing her. Then,
I got to the Manor and the prison cell and holy shit. I'm level 68 and I feel like I'm under leveled for that whole area.
You definitely are underleveled
 

Mandelbo

Member
Oct 30, 2017
559
Looking at older boss designs from older soul games I can see they're much more slower and telegraphed along with in some cases easier to stagger or lower health bars. This is just a point of view from someone who hasn't played any other FromSoft game besides Elden ring but I don't know if that kind of design would last long as player skill goes up along with the tools available to the player also increases. I guess it's funny because I thought the Elden ring boss design was the norm for souls games but the bosses used to be much more lumbering and more telegraphed based on what I've watched.

Yeah I completely agree with you here - if the boss design had never moved on from what it was like in DS1, whilst players still got more tools to use against them, it'd be totally monotonous and boring. I just feel like something I liked from those early games has been gradually lost with each iteration of the combat system, and playing DeS and DS1 again last year has only made that difference in encounter design more obvious - I miss that simplicity. It's kind of quaint to me that Artorias, who at the time was one of the hardest bosses in the series, has a less complex moveset than *the first boss* of Elden Ring, and honestly wouldn't look out of place as a standard enemy in the game's dungeons.
 

tjlee2

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,803

snausages

Member
Feb 12, 2018
10,464
I have 41 vigor and I guess I need more after getting tossed into the air and kebab-ed from 100 to 0 in a flash on a pretty poggers no hit run I had going

Some real bullshit there, lady.
 

PanzerKraken

Member
Nov 1, 2017
15,079
Yeah I completely agree with you here - if the boss design had never moved on from what it was like in DS1, whilst players still got more tools to use against them, it'd be totally monotonous and boring. I just feel like something I liked from those early games has been gradually lost with each iteration of the combat system, and playing DeS and DS1 again last year has only made that difference in encounter design more obvious - I miss that simplicity. It's kind of quaint to me that Artorias, who at the time was one of the hardest bosses in the series, has a less complex moveset than *the first boss* of Elden Ring, and honestly wouldn't look out of place as a standard enemy in the game's dungeons.

They have really since Bloodborne pushing the super high reflex bosses that demand dodges or other split second timing parries. The amount of constant non stop attacking spinning death blossom BS is just not fun to play against.
 

Jakenbakin

"This guy are sick" and Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Jun 17, 2018
11,983
Did you personally find or explore that location before you learned about it on the internet though? Not whether a player could theoretically do it, did you do it that way? And again, even if you did, did you find the other locations yourself or did you look it up?

I don't mean to be antagonistic but it's not an argument to say it 'could' happen that way. The nature of an open world means most players do not follow a set path so things being available 'early' has nothing to do with whether they are reliably discoverable or signified as critically important.

Saying you need to randomly discover something to learn a mechanic even exists in the game is not justifiable (let alone giving direction on finding the rest of the ball bearings to make the mechanic actually usable). So many players just google stuff or read the wiki and then act like it's obvious in retrospect when it's anything but.
When I encountered a second mine (identified by its "mine" moniker and visual language) and could see that both mines on the map, which is exceptionally detailed and tuned to you using it in tandem with exploration on the overworld, were shown as an orange blob it became obvious the game language was saying "hey, orange blobs are mines. Mines are where you get upgrade materials. Occasionally you get a "bell bearing" and if you look at item descriptions and interact with NPCs, you know those are given to an NPC at your hub to expand shop options. You should go to those orange blobs when you unlock map fragments."

You seem absolutely incredulous at the idea people can play this game efficiently without using the internet tools, but so much stuff can be intuited by playing the game as intended and paying attention. Absolutely there's obtuse shit in the game, but it is nowhere near to the extent you seem to think.
 

Zeliard

Member
Jun 21, 2019
10,987
They have really since Bloodborne pushing the super high reflex bosses that demand dodges or other split second timing parries. The amount of constant non stop attacking spinning death blossom BS is just not fun to play against.

I don't think that properly characterizes Bloodborne either. That was just the first game where you couldn't circle spam for an easy backstab. They started to really punish that shit then.
 

Juturna

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,834
Finally joined the zeitgeist and started ER. Just beat Margit, but getting messed up in the castle. Might skip to Liurnia and get some better armor...
 

Neki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,793
Yeah I completely agree with you here - if the boss design had never moved on from what it was like in DS1, whilst players still got more tools to use against them, it'd be totally monotonous and boring. I just feel like something I liked from those early games has been gradually lost with each iteration of the combat system, and playing DeS and DS1 again last year has only made that difference in encounter design more obvious - I miss that simplicity. It's kind of quaint to me that Artorias, who at the time was one of the hardest bosses in the series, has a less complex moveset than *the first boss* of Elden Ring, and honestly wouldn't look out of place as a standard enemy in the game's dungeons.

I'm not sure what they can do because there is a sizable minority of people who hate the complex boss design in ER which is fair but I don't think they can ever go back to DS1 style bosses because the player base just seems too good to be walled by those types of bosses anymore. Maybe the combat system and engine need to be revamped because boss complexity can't keep going up to combat increasing player skill and knowledge (seven games worth at this point) because at some point the bosses will have to become ridiculous in order to stop players from beating them in one or two attempts.
 

SunBroDave

"This guy are sick"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,335
After 90 hours, I think I'm ready to put the game down, until either the DLC is released or the PC version is patched into an acceptable state. I've rolled credits and beaten all major (including optional) bosses, with the only trophies left to unlock the Plat being the ones for the different endings and the ones for getting all legendary of each thing.

I didn't know it was possible, but Elden Ring surpassed TLOU2, GOW 2018, BOTW, Hollow Knight, and Bloodborne, to become the best game I've ever played.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,352
I gotta say I disagree with this. You have to get off your horse and search. The way it is now everything you find is so much more meaningful and valued. When you find that cave which is tricky to perceive through your thoroughness it feels great.

I really don't want 'the wind' or whatever telling we where to find stuff like Ghosts.

Having said that, there are pointers in the world I think they're just fairly subtle.

This is a world in the style of Morrowind; it's not handing you stuff. Stuff is there if you look for it.

I'm happy to disagree because I think we have very different conceptions of what constitutes being able to 'search/look for something' in a way that feels good. But 'the wind' exists in Elden Ring too for story objectives, it's so important that the direction is permanently added to your map. They also added beacons which show up both visually and in your compass so there's something sort of mechanically similar in a way too.

But I would also push back on the Tsushima thing because what I was trying to reference was all the landscape or natural environment pieces that clue you in on nearby sites of interest and not the wind. I'm thinking things like the bird swarms for Haikus, the golden leaves for Fox Dens, smoke columns, the Shinto Shrines, etc. Even the wind is really only used for quest-givers/starting locations and it's player driven, you can only track one thing at a time. So you can't be pushed in multiple directions at once, it's optional, and you can't even track non-quests unless you spec into it.

Elden Ring has some smoke columns but they're used for ruined villages or the traders (whose campfire is far more visible). i can't really think of any repeating visual motif that suggests where a cave, tunnel, or catacombs might be outside of the witch statues (which themselves have to be discovered too).
 

Ocirus

Member
Dec 4, 2017
1,541
Just wanted to gauge something:

Would anyone here be interested in a weapon trade? Why? Because I fought an enemy with two of the same unique weapon (one in each hand) and after defeating them I only got one. After looking into it a bit it looks like players can drop a weapon they already have for their co-op partner. This permanently removes the weapon for one player, but gives the other player a second copy.

If anyone is interested in this, I'm looking for someone to drop their Hoslow's Petal Whip for me to obtain, gained from defeating Juno Hoslow, the final request in the Volcano Manor quest line.

I'd be happy to drop a similar unique weapon, within reason - no legendary and such.

Edit: I'm on PS5
 

Manu

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,191
Buenos Aires, Argentina
At this point I'm confident I won't beat her solo even with 99 on all stats lmao, but I'll try it again in NG+ I already know her entire moveset, with better weapons it will be better

I feel like unless you can stun lock her to death like that one user earlier did, she's basically impossible with a big, slow str weapon.

Never once in the series I felt "this boss may be impossible with some builds" until now.
 

Zeliard

Member
Jun 21, 2019
10,987
After 90 hours, I think I'm ready to put the game down, until DLC or the PC version is patched into an acceptable state. I've rolled credits and beaten all major bosses, with the only trophies left to unlock the Plat being the ones for the different endings and the ones for getting all legendary of each thing.

I didn't know it was possible, but Elden Ring surpassed TLOU2, GOW 2018, BOTW, Hollow Knight, and Bloodborne, to become the best game I've ever played.

But Bloodborne?

That game to me is still on another level entirely.
 

MarinZero

Alt-Account
Banned
Jan 26, 2022
619
I beat the last boss on my first try. I still can't beat Malenia tho, lol. I loved the 70 hours I spent on this game. GOTY for sure. One of the top 3 best games I've ever played and From's best game.
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,470
Man, R is kicking my ass. I keep managing to get him down to like 25% HP but he always gets me around there. I'm basically letting the summons do as much work as possible, and riding in with a charged R2 when the opportunity strikes. I feel like this is the winning strat, but I just can't get there. Level 104 STR build
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
117,253
Did you personally find or explore that location before you learned about it on the internet though? Not whether a player could theoretically do it, did you do it that way? And again, even if you did, did you find the other locations yourself or did you look it up?

I don't mean to be antagonistic but it's not an argument to say it 'could' happen that way. The nature of an open world means most players do not follow a set path so things being available 'early' has nothing to do with whether they are reliably discoverable or signified as critically important.

Saying you need to randomly discover something to learn a mechanic even exists in the game is not justifiable (let alone giving direction on finding the rest of the ball bearings to make the mechanic actually usable). So many players just google stuff or read the wiki and then act like it's obvious in retrospect when it's anything but.

I actually did find it on my own, but maybe they should've put it in one of the mines in Limgrave to make it that much more obvious.
 

GasProblem

Prophet of Truth
Member
Nov 18, 2017
3,171
Finnnnnaly beat Radahn. There were barely any summons left, he just had a small sliver of health left and I beat him with a R2 attack. The fight took like 20 mins but it's finally over!
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,352

When I encountered a second mine (identified by its "mine" moniker and visual language) and could see that both mines on the map, which is exceptionally detailed and tuned to you using it in tandem with exploration on the overworld, were shown as an orange blob it became obvious the game language was saying "hey, orange blobs are mines. Mines are where you get upgrade materials. Occasionally you get a "bell bearing" and if you look at item descriptions and interact with NPCs, you know those are given to an NPC at your hub to expand shop options. You should go to those orange blobs when you unlock map fragments."

You seem absolutely incredulous at the idea people can play this game efficiently without using the internet tools, but so much stuff can be intuited by playing the game as intended and paying attention. Absolutely there's obtuse shit in the game, but it is nowhere near to the extent you seem to think.

I actually did find it on my own, but maybe they should've put it in one of the mines in Limgrave to make it that much more obvious.

I was aggressively credulous because so much of the Dark Souls online community is centered around the collective discovery and sharing of obscured information and knowledge. Many systems in their games are specifically designed with obfuscation for the community to untangle together; what are the details of spells, are their hard/soft stat caps, how does scaling work, resistances and vulnerabilities, where are notable chests with items, etc. Obviously it's the internet so our word has to be the end of it, but I still think you're way overestimating the average From Software fan's restraint in playing through completely blind and not constantly talking about or researching the game online as they play.

In a linear dark souls game you wouldn't have a problem of this severity because you'd be forced to clear the cave level where you get the ball bearing equivalent and discover what it does. My point isn't about the dark souls information meta-game itself, it's about whether that meta-game translates well to the open-world. I don't think an open world is well-designed when knowledge of a mechanic existing at all is restricted to something that players may never find or explore.

Depending on how you play, you may simply never venture into the tunnels to begin with even if you do notice the orange hue over them on your map. Not all of them even drop a ball bearing from the boss so there's no reason to expect that a player would understand how important they are. Maybe you enter the Limgrave Tunnel first and think they're just a one-time source of stones like a legacy dungeon. Maybe you enter one of the higher difficulty ones first and give up on the boss but forget to come back later.

Locking key mechanical components behind entirely optional areas with no clear hint or suggestion isn't good design; it's why so many people in the thread are constantly asking about it. An open world game cannot expect players to explore everything or every type of something. Especially when the upgrade system itself isn't hailed as a pinnacle of good design in the first place.

All it does is restrict player experimentation and allow for people to break the game by accessing higher tier weapon upgrades before they normally should have access by using Torrent or running past mobs in high level zones picking things up. Restricting +dmg weapon levels behind story bosses and letting players raise all their weapons to that limit afterward would be far more balanced and intuitive. As is, the system just emphasizes picking 1-3 weapons and sticking with them exclusively for the rest of the game.
 
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Herey

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Jan 10, 2019
3,417
Any reason that the fog gate to get into the area with the fire giant isn't letting me through?
 

aspiring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,545
I still can't get Radahn. And i don't know what going somewhere else and leveling up _______, is going to change the outcome of being essentially caught in a one shot.

Ok so I was the same. It dragged the game down for a while. No matter what I couldn't beat him and he would co stand one shot me in phase 2. I went out and did other things. got to level 96 while also upgrading weapons and FINALLY beat Radahn. And it came super easy. Like, on my first try after. So just go elsewhere. His one shotting essentially became moot because not only was my health so high, but I could easily take chunks of off him in health.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,940
God, everything in Azula is so terrible. "Refight the same bosses you've been refighting all game, but now they can't be staggered and will keep resummoning each other"

I really think everything after Lyndell is awful. There's been like 1 unique boss for the last twenty hours and everything is a bunch of stupidly strong trash mobs that aren't fun to fight.
 

Mukrab

Banned
Apr 19, 2020
7,712
But that's just flatout wrong though. If you wanna play coop with somebody, then you open yourself up for invasions.

That has nothing to do with wanting to get invaded. Outside of the probably very tiny amount of people that are actively using the taunters tongue, there will always be two people because that's literally how the game works!

*Brought to you by a proud wearer of the blue circlet thingy

when you play coop you can be invaded without inviting, thats why you get 2 v 1s, youre invading people tha are just co-oping
That makes sense. I didn't know that coop activated invasions. Anyway, apologies to like ONE guy i invaded, the other ones all tea bagged or emoted so fuck them, they're not any less pathetic.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,831
I'm not sure what they can do because there is a sizable minority of people who hate the complex boss design in ER which is fair but I don't think they can ever go back to DS1 style bosses because the player base just seems too good to be walled by those types of bosses anymore. Maybe the combat system and engine need to be revamped because boss complexity can't keep going up to combat increasing player skill and knowledge (seven games worth at this point) because at some point the bosses will have to become ridiculous in order to stop players from beating them in one or two attempts.

I think they should keep this design style but tone down the damage done a little.
 

burgerdog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,544
Without big spoilers: you won't be able to simply go through that door. So there shouldn't be any "accidents".

You can sit at a site of grace before this specific door and somebody will give you a very clear warning not to go through that door.

Sounds good, thanks a bunch, much appreciated. Was starting to get paranoid with every choice I get.
 

IvorB

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,995
I'm happy to disagree because I think we have very different conceptions of what constitutes being able to 'search/look for something' in a way that feels good. But 'the wind' exists in Elden Ring too for story objectives, it's so important that the direction is permanently added to your map. They also added beacons which show up both visually and in your compass so there's something sort of mechanically similar in a way too.

But I would also push back on the Tsushima thing because what I was trying to reference was all the landscape or natural environment pieces that clue you in on nearby sites of interest and not the wind. I'm thinking things like the bird swarms for Haikus, the golden leaves for Fox Dens, smoke columns, the Shinto Shrines, etc. Even the wind is really only used for quest-givers/starting locations and it's player driven, you can only track one thing at a time. So you can't be pushed in multiple directions at once, it's optional, and you can't even track non-quests unless you spec into it.

Elden Ring has some smoke columns but they're used for ruined villages or the traders (whose campfire is far more visible). i can't really think of any repeating visual motif that suggests where a cave, tunnel, or catacombs might be outside of the witch statues (which themselves have to be discovered too).

I can't really speak on Ghost because I haven't played it so I have no idea. I just saw one trailer about the wind ha ha.

There absolutely are signals in the game. Apart from the actual map itself as someone mentioned, ruined villages normally have underground areas, golden seed are found under the bright trees that you can see from far away etc. It actually shows you where you can get the detailed map. But some stuff is hidden away and you have to look for it. That's just the way it is.

If you don't like detailed, through searching and exploration then fair enough but I feel like it's a hallmark of From's recent games and it expects it of you. It's just a bit more demanding now in a huge open world.

I haven't consulted any guides and I'm very happy with the pace of developing and powering up my character from exploration and searching. Would I like more of everything? Of course, but it's just not that kind of game I reckon.
 

Relix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,265
After Stormveil, what should be an ideal location. I am level 30 if it matters and working on a Paladin build.
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,623
São Paulo - Brazil
Having had some time to stew my thoughts after finishing the game, I think there are fundamental issues with their design of the open world that really hamper the combat experience. The world is simply too large and too obscured to hide such critical gameplay items and resources behind them with no direction or guidance whatsoever. Rarely do you discover a path to something or a hint guiding you towards something, you literally have to stumble upon its exact location. In comparison to Ghosts of Tsushima, in which I barely ever used my map because the game had such a well-embedded visual language to communicate guidance towards sites of interest (even from long distances), I was constantly referencing my map in Elden Ring just to see if the particular graphics on the map implied that it *should* have something nearby.

This is most apparent with the weapon upgrade system, which is an already bad mechanic turned awful because it is completely dependent on whether you happen to explore specific hidden areas, which are very easily missable in of themselves but which have hidden areas/bodies inside them too. Hell, some areas are not even supposed to be hidden they're just so barely visible that you have to be coming from a specific angle/direction to even see it.

You can very easily get soft-locked out of upgrades because you just don't have enough of a particular number. Moreover, the very system itself is extraordinarily punishing because it forces you to commit to a select few weapons because the cost of trying to raise another to your level to experiment with it is far too high. So the game is constantly dumping all these new weapons on you and all you can think is:

"Gosh, it would be fun to try using that but I don't have the dozens of stones I need to make it remotely comparable to what I'm already using. And even if I did have the stones, it's not worth the risk of not liking the weapon. After all, I get new weapons so frequently that I should probably save them in case I get a really good weapon later on I want to use."

And it's not even a hard problem to address, your smith-forge NPC could very easily give generic hints about the rough locations of caves or mines that might be good sources of stones (e.g. "try looking around the north-east cliffs of X" or "south-west of castle Y"). Ideally you would replace the system entirely and just have boss-related forging tools to freely upgrade all weapons to a specific level. That way you can still gate access to the damage tiers by actual progression.

Along the same lines, the game world is just too large and too 'realistic' to make this kind of discovery reliable. You could safely cut the zone areas down by maybe 30% and still preserve all the sense of space and discovery. But things are so spread out and the assets so samey-looking that your eyes tend to gloss over as you're just riding Torrent back and forth along a cliff wall or ruins trying to find any carve-outs with a torch signaling a cave/tunnel/catacomb.

A good open world is not just about making a huge area and plopping things down in random locations and demanding the player thoroughly scour each and every inch in order to find things. You should be able to get a sense of where things might be just from a vista, and there should visual clues and tells to communicate both when something is far away, but also when something is nearby so you can shift from 'travel' mode into 'searching' mode.

Elden Ring does deliver on a majestic sense of scale and wonder (the entrance to the lakes probably being the biggest 'oh shit' moment) but the Dark Souls games have already been doing that from day one. I really didn't feel like the Open World itself added meaningful mechanical depth to the existing formula besides the novelty of being able to see the different zones in a non-linear fashion. Which is neat, but it also creates risk in that it allows players to access items/resources they normally shouldn't have until much later. In some zones, you can find trash mobs that pose little danger but give a huge amount of souls relative to the zone you're supposed to be in, increasing the risk of being over-levelled in a game that both over-levels you by default and where being over-leveled trivializes the entire middle third.

This is a good post. I do think the open world design ended up working very well with the Souls formula, but it does have some problems.
 

Zeliard

Member
Jun 21, 2019
10,987
I'm honestly conflicted myself.

Like I'm not sure Elden Ring beat Bloodborne as my favorite, but it's clearly the better game? if that makes sense.

Elden Ring has some major arguments in its favor. It's basically Dark Souls 4, and a natural extension of the series since Demon's Souls.

It makes sense, right? We've all wondered, what if Dark Souls was an actual open world? That's Elden Ring. I think it's much closer to a Souls game than Bloodborne is.

But Bloodborne, man. Imagine they just port it to PC and put it on Steam. I'm no marketing genius but it will absolutely kill, especially after the success of Elden Ring.
 

BenjiBurltz

Member
Mar 15, 2018
183
I would go south after Stormveil and do the area south of Limgrave unless you've done that already, in which case go north.
 

Diogo Arez

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 20, 2020
17,815
I feel like unless you can stun lock her to death like that one user earlier did, she's basically impossible with a big, slow str weapon.

Never once in the series I felt "this boss may be impossible with some builds" until now.
I'm using a Longsword and the damage I was doing in the second phase was so small she recovered it in like 2 hits on my shield lmao
 
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