If only more people used this TR quote in which he takes a strong stance against listicles, which is definitely a more pertinent issue regarding online video game news websites.
And yet people strangely don't make half as big a deal about Movie, TV, and music scores on Metacritic as they do for games. Funny that.Video game review culture is absolutely toxic. Saying people can't criticize games is ridiculous of course, but at the same time, review outlets KNOW how crazy people will go over their reviews for big games. Metacritic and numerical game scores need to be abolished. I fail to see any negatives to this. It would significantly diminish fanboy wars, and certainly many of the alarming reactions to reviewers including threats of harm and violence would be reduced. It would force people to actually read a review and put some thought into it.
"He wasn't saying TLoU2 is as good as Schindler's List. He's saying that he got the same emotional reaction from both works."I honestly don't understand what the "he wasn't comparing TLOU2 to Schindler's List, he was comparing his emotional response to TLOU2 with Schindler's List" argument even means
Yeah, that what I assumed he meant? How does that make it less embarrassing of a tweet?
That guy also said all games are John Wick or something, when there's only one game like that and it's not even out yet.
Honestly I'm more baffled by the "everything is John Wick" part. I can understand why one would pick Shiendler's List, as bad as that choice is. If he had picked No Country for Old Men for example, it would have been perfectly reasonable. But saying that every game outside of TLOU2 is exclusively trying to be about entertaining action, is a very ignorant take. It's like he's only played Destiny and Overwatch in his life.I honestly don't understand what the "he wasn't comparing TLOU2 to Schindler's List, he was comparing his emotional response to TLOU2 with Schindler's List" argument even means
Yeah, that what I assumed he meant? How does that make it less embarrassing of a tweet?
Yeah it's absolutely neccessary to be critical, it doesn't have to drop the score a ton but the negatives should always be highlighted so things can improve.This a hundred times!
If people truly want games to be art, then they should be ready to handle the critique. If a game can openly display its flaws and accept them and still be considered great then that is better than just being showered with positive feedback!
Edit: Also critique is good for creators. You will never know what works and what doesn't if you do not listen to both negative and positive feedback
You see, originally I thought the tweet was a massive spoiler and the late game twist was that we weren't in post-apocalyptic Seattle but instead 1944 Poland the whole time. Thankfully he clarified that the game was not, in fact, literally Schindler's List but a game about fungus zombies."He wasn't saying TLoU2 is as good as Schindler's List. He's saying that he got the same emotional reaction from both works."
Really? You did? Holy fucking shit.
In a medium where every movie is Grand Theft Auto 3, Avenger's Endgame is finally Shadow of the ColossusHonestly I'm more baffled by the "everything is John Wick" part. I can understand why one would pick Shiendler's List, as bad as that choice is. If he had picked No Country for Old Men for example, it would have been perfectly reasonable. But saying that every game outside of TLOU2 is exclusively trying to be about entertaining action, is a very ignorant take. It's like he's only played Destiny and Overwatch in his life.
I think it's less that creatives/V.A are unable to respond to criticism that they get, and more that they do so in a half assed and defensive way. First off, it's really weird for Troy Baker to have taken "games are too long" personally; it didn't call him or TLoU2 out by name, and as a criticism it doesn't have much to do with his involvement with the game. But if he had taken the time to write out his thought, even a line of it, I don't think this would've been an issue. But he didn't do that, he posted a strange, not very applicable quote by Roosevelt and called it a day.This argument is so bad imo. Critics (and anyone and everyone) should be allowed to express their opinions on games, in return people (including actors and developers) should be allowed to say if the criticism is uninformed and shallow. Critics are not some impartial authority to be placed on a pedestal where no one should question what they say.
Imagine thinking that anything Jim Sterling has said about this debacle so far could be justified as an attack.It's kind of ironic to see Jim Sterling, who rails so hard against any notion of "bullying" within this industry go to such lengths to justify it being okay to attack someone because of a rough sounding comparison between a game and a film... and in the same video where he complains about how game journalists are treated by others in the industry no less.
This all goes back into my belief that gamers don't really like the concept of games being considered art. Sure, they like the presumed glamor, pompisity, and maturity that comes with the label, but they absolutely abhor the responsibility that art has to be open to criticism from those who engage with it for the sake of adding to cultural discourse and pursuing gradual improvement of the medium as a whole. They want to have their cake and eat it too: enjoying the legal and social protections that more established art forms have without any of the messy criticism getting in the way of the fun. It doesn't of course help that gaming is inherently an identity (ugh!) at this point, and an attack on one's favorite games and companies is construed with an attack on the self, making it near impossible to approach critical darlings with any sort of thoughtfulness in critique.
Imagine thinking that anything Jim Sterling has said about this debacle so far could be justified as an attack.
I never said it was him doing the attacking... just that he didn't seem to have a problem with others doing so. Indeed, he actually seems to have a serious issue with at least one person trying to defend the guy in fact.
He didn't attack that journalist. He just made fun of a laughable tweet.It's kind of ironic to see Jim Sterling, who rails so hard against any notion of "bullying" within this industry go to such lengths to justify it being okay to attack someone because of a rough sounding comparison between a game and a film... and in the same video where he complains about how game journalists are treated by others in the industry no less.
This all goes back into my belief that gamers don't really like the concept of games being considered art. Sure, they like the presumed glamor, pompisity, and maturity that comes with the label, but they absolutely abhor the responsibility that art has to be open to criticism from those who engage with it for the sake of adding to cultural discourse and pursuing gradual improvement of the medium as a whole. They want to have their cake and eat it too: enjoying the legal and social protections that more established art forms have without any of the messy criticism getting in the way of the fun. It doesn't of course help that gaming is inherently an identity (ugh!) at this point, and an attack on one's favorite games and companies is construed with an attack on the self, making it near impossible to approach critical darlings with any sort of thoughtfulness in critique.
It's exhausting. So is this habit of comparing games to works that have a greater social relevance and importance. News flash: they're fucking video games, even if they make you have a sad sometimes or include LGBTQA+ characters and staff. One day I sincerely believe we will get a video game that in itself stands as a testament to human creativity and artistic passion, a masterpiece that film directors will look at for legitimate inspiration outside of video game-inspired works, but that will be self-evident in the way the wider culture beyond the purview of gaming culture receives the work, not forced out by melodramatic statements of importance from game critics and fans. Throwing out Schindler's List in any comparative way to a damn zombie video game by Naughty Dog raises the question of who are you trying to convince?
When you only view video games as a product and not a piece of art, you're going to look at a 90+ Metacritic score and think it reflects some objective, undeniable quality about that game.
And because of that, you won't sincerely engage with good faith dissenting opinions.
And because you won't sincerely engage with opinions that don't fall in line with the consensus, you can't have discourse about the game, or games in general.
Things are just either good or bad, and no one is allowed to have opinions.
People want to compare their latest critically acclaimed game to respected works of art in cinema, music, or literature, but those mediums have (mostly) healthy discourse that elevates them to a level of cultural relevance video games may never achieve because as a medium, it's completely hamstrung by the culture that surrounds it.
I wouldn't exactly say pointing out that maybe you shouldn't be comparing your AAA zombie video games to media about the holocaust of all things, being a bad take is "attacking". It's more of a "hey, maybe don't do that, it's pretty disrespectful" type of comment.I never said it was him doing the attacking... just that he didn't seem to have a problem with others doing so. Indeed, he actually seems to have a serious issue with at least one person trying to defend the guy in fact.
He attacks constantly and he's also guilty of doing what he complains about. It's why Jim sterling is one person, people should take with a grain of salt.I never said it was him doing the attacking... just that he didn't seem to have a problem with others doing so. Indeed, he actually seems to have a serious issue with at least one person trying to defend the guy in fact.
...this video isn't about that.The entire Jason argument started with a guy comparing the emotional impact he had with story with Scinder list , to whom Jason attacked, Neil stepped in since he felt he is Jew as well and maybe thought telling Jason that the Jeff didnt intent that way
and then the argument started
I dont think this incident relates to how dare you criticize the game
If the point of Troy's response was to say that Jason is unqualified to critique video games because he's not a developer, then it also holds true that Troy is unqualified to critique game journalism because he's not a journalist.
There's also the discourse to be had on someone attacking someone else for not having the same glowing positive opinion of something. "How dare you not like TLOU2" is a very real thing.
Jason isn't a saint either with how he mocked that reviewer that compared his emotional response to the game to his emotional response to Schindler's list.
All Jason did was say his emotional response to the audio logs in Bioshock was approximately equivalent to his emotional response to the Diary of Anne Frank. What's wrong with that?Most of the criticism has been on bad faith. It's pretty telling that this is probably the only place where you can discuss the game without the vitriol and bigotry shown everywhere else, camouflaged with the "lazy writing" or other made up arguments. Jason isn't a saint either with how he mocked that reviewer that compared his emotional response to the game to his emotional response to Schindler's list.
Troy is clearly wrong here, but the whole atmosphere around has been so trashy that it's not surprising to me that the actors and devs are overly sensitive regarding the game. Hell they are probably bothered 24/7 by deranged fuckers, most of them finding approval on gaming critics stirring the pot for fun.
If your emotional response to TLOU2 is the same as a movie about the holocaust...
you deserve to be mocked.
To be fair, Jason did this at first.There are more things you can do before mocking, maybe telling the guy why he shouldnt compare
There are more things you can do before mocking, maybe telling the guy why he shouldnt compare
If your emotional response to TLOU2 is the same as a movie about the holocaust...
you deserve to be mocked.
If your emotional response to TLOU2 is the same as a movie about the holocaust...
you deserve to be mocked.
If your emotional response to TLOU2 is the same as a movie about the holocaust...
you deserve to be mocked.
wait what?If your emotional response to TLOU2 is the same as a movie about the holocaust...
you deserve to be mocked.
Is it not self evident why you shouldn't compare a video games to a movie about how 6 million plus Jewish and other people were murdered? Do you REALLY need to be told why that comparison doesn't work?
And for what its worth, he didn't mock them IMO. He called it out very eloquently.
And if someone mocks one reviewer's emotional reaction to something while criticizing others for being unable to handle a reviewer's opinion, they deserve to be called a hypocrite.
He is no way comparing both the thing.
It's the way he felt while playing this game Vs other games
The difference in playing tlou 2 with any other video game is like the difference in watching scinder list Vs scinder list for him
That's what his tweet meant
Druckmann is so brave, standing up for the right of reviewers to compare his works to Schindler's ListIt was meant to illustrate how the reviewer felt about the game.
It is no way shape or form suggesting that TLoU2's fiction is as important as events of the holocaust.
Druckmann himself(he is jewish) understood this.
Is it not self evident why you shouldn't compare a video games to a movie about how 6 million plus Jewish and other people were murdered? Do you REALLY need to be told why that comparison doesn't work?
And for what its worth, he didn't mock them IMO. He called it out very eloquently.
And yet people strangely don't make half as big a deal about Movie, TV, and music scores on Metacritic as they do for games. Funny that.
My favorite is when people try to separate out the content and historical material of the movie from the tweet to defend it. "He never said the holocaust youre making things up!!!!"I honestly don't understand what the "he wasn't comparing TLOU2 to Schindler's List, he was comparing his emotional response to TLOU2 with Schindler's List" argument even means
Yeah, that what I assumed he meant? How does that make it less embarrassing of a tweet?
This isn't making the tweet better no matter how many threads you come in to say this in. Don't compare your zombie video game to a movie based on one of the most horrific acts of violence in recorded history. Its not a hard concept to grasp and you can compare how poignant part 2 was for you without having to resort to this.He is no way comparing both the thing.
It's the way he felt while playing this game Vs other games
The difference in playing tlou 2 with any other video game is like the difference in watching scinder list Vs John Wick for him
That's what his tweet meant