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Don't You Dare Critique Video Games! (Jim Sterling video regarding Troy Baker's dismissal of TLOU2 criticism)

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Deleted member 15360

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3,477
Lashley said:
It's weird how you can be praised by 9/10 people, but you focus on the 1/10 who criticize.

I do the same thing.
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People who disagree with positve reviews can criticize the review and people who disagree with negative reviews can criticize the review.

There are certain negative review which are very well written which many have acknowledged and respected the opinion
 
Soj

Soj

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Oct 27, 2017
10,729
Jesus Christ, Troy... Now I know where the Naughty Dog stans get it from.
 
Dyle

Dyle

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Oct 25, 2017
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It is wild that that particular tweet led to that response, since even Shawn Layden has admitted that games should be shorter. It's arguably the most milquetoast critique in video games and it's hard to take anyone who would feel attacked by it seriously.
 
OP
OP
Raijinto

Raijinto

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Oct 28, 2017
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Sanguine said:
Sony/ND reached out to Vice about a less than perfect review.

Which is what I believe Jim's video is about... (not the harassment stuff).
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It's not really about that specifically, which is why I made this separate thread, as Jim focuses more on Troy Baker specifically in the video as a shining example of the people involved in making games being overly sensitive to criticism. He brings it round to companies, especially Sony who are the most relevant here, closer to the end.
 
litebrite

litebrite

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Oct 27, 2017
21,832
turbobutts said:
of course him and every other critic is going to defend their career because its their career, but i'm firmly in the camp of critics having the least important or insightful perspective. I care about what players think and what developers and other creatives think.
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Amazing when critics are fawning over their product with praise, them being the least important or insightful perspective is never brought up but in fact are used to reinforce how great their game is.
 
Alexandros

Alexandros

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Oct 26, 2017
17,831
I think the root of the problem is that some publishers and developers don't really respect game critics. Instead of viewing them as an independent party they seem to think of them as an extension of their marketing department.
 
Pekola

Pekola

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Oct 27, 2017
2,507
You should 100% be concerned with creators and companies directly trying to intervene with criticism of their art/product.

Not because the critics are always right or insightful. But because this industry has some major issues of control and obfuscation.

Neil Druckmann, Cory Balrog and now Troy Baker have (wether they intended or not) stoked the adversarial relationship gamers have with critics, by not respecting boundaries. It was not their place to do what they did.
 
Lashley

Lashley

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Oct 25, 2017
60,139
Pranay said:
People who disagree with positve reviews can criticize the review and people who disagree with negative reviews can criticize the review.

There are certain negative review which are very well written which many have acknowledged and respected the opinion
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Ok?
 

Deleted member 3010

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Aprikurt said:
Nah, this ain't it Jim
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I mean, I just finished the video and I think Jim seems to be pretty spot on, he backed every one of his points with explanations and evidences to get his point across.

If a review is well written and has negative comments about a game which are well thought out and constructive, I don't see any need for the interns who work on said game to shit on it, they should instead use those as a tools to better themselves. Neil, Cory and now Troy attacking Jason on Twitter the way they did was some of the most embarrassing shit I saw in a long time, especially considering how both of their studios treat their employees.
 
Hyun Sai

Hyun Sai

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Oct 27, 2017
14,562
Pekola said:
You should 100% be concerned with creators and companies directly trying to intervene with criticism of their art/product.

Not because the critics are always right or insightful. But because this industry has some major issues of control and obfuscation.

Neil Druckmann, Cory Balrog and now Troy Baker have (wether they intended or not) stoked the adversarial relationship gamers have with critics, by not respecting boundaries. It was not their place to do what they did.
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Well said.
 
ez123

ez123

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Feb 18, 2020
2,621
I guess it's commendable that Baker is offended on behalf of the games he works on because none of these times where he has gotten defensive have been about his performance. Still not a good look but it's something.
 
Roliq

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Sep 23, 2018
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Lord Fanny said:
The last thread was derailed by people trying to make it about harassment to devs, though it's clearly a different subject to what this video covers. And this thread will, too, probably
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To be more clear that closed thread was derailed by the OP from the beginning, don't know why he made it in the first place
 
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ghostcrew

ghostcrew

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Oct 27, 2017
30,395
Lashley said:
It's weird how you can be praised by 9/10 people, but you focus on the 1/10 who criticize.

I do the same thing.
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Liked the bit where Jim literally said 'I've gotta wonder why Troy Baker didn't deploy this quote (about criticism) while TLOU2 was getting 9s and 10s out of 10'.
 
Dr PeterVenkman

Dr PeterVenkman

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Oct 28, 2017
2,259
Troy baker seems to be very hard on himself. People who tend to be self conscious like that tend to be pretty sensitive to criticism. I empathize with both sides of that equation. Artists are always going to be critiqued, and in this day and age where famous people can express their ideas freely, it's not a surprise that his response to criticism comes across as less than gracious. Not everyone responds to things the same way. He has just as much right to express his opinion on the criticisms themselves as the critics are to express their own opinions. It's obviously hard for him to ignore the critiques and not take them personally, whether not they are intended. I hope he can find a measure of peace and attempt to focus more on the praise than the criticism, but that can be quite hard for people who are hard on themselves. I wish the best for all parties involved here.

Also, I really like Jason Schreier from what I've heard on pods, but he can be a bit snarky to his own detriment sometimes. Not that I think he's "in the wrong" or anything, but he was clearly talking about tlou. Own the hyperbole and don't hide behind "it's just a joke"
 
Anton Sugar

Anton Sugar

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Dyle said:
It is wild that that particular tweet led to that response, since even Shawn Layden has admitted that games should be shorter. It's arguably the most milquetoast critique in video games and it's hard to take anyone who would feel attacked by it seriously.
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Exactly. When I first saw the "games are too long" tweet and Troy's response, I literally couldn't make the connection.

Troy's response is puzzling, embarrassing, and amateurish. It really reflects the maturity level of the gaming community and the medium itself. At least in the film/TV world, anyone who says, "Don't listen to the critics, they suck" is mostly laughed at.
 
H.Cornerstone

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Oct 27, 2017
6,732
My only complaint about the video is it took most of the way through the video before he got the crux of the point, which is the quote from the polygon article about how people are afraid to post dissenting opinions because of the backlash from devs and fans, which is extremely unproductive for the industry as a whole.
 

JDSN

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,129
I wish people would understand that crítics and analysis of published works is a net positive to the medium as a whole. You don't get to Say "the citizen kane of whatever" and then being whinny when a critic gives his view.
 
Roliq

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ArchLector said:
This argument is so bad imo. Critics (and anyone and everyone) should be allowed to express their opinions on games, in return people (including actors and developers) should be allowed to say if the criticism is uninformed and shallow. Critics are not some impartial authority to be placed on a pedestal where no one should question what they say.
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He didn't even respond, he literally just posted a Theodore Roosevelt quote and said that's enough as if using quotes from famous dead people are an "i win" card, and is not like what he responded to was a deep critique, wild take or anything it just was "i wish games were shorter"
 
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PJV3

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Oct 25, 2017
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I watched Troy get a little bit shirty with his friends discussing TLOU2 on youtube, he's just a bit sensitive and overly serious about it.
i don't mind it though, it's kind of fun that he's not very good at putting a front on considering he's an actor.
 

Deleted member 51539

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Jan 3, 2019
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Troy Baker having a veritable Shindler's List of a reaction to an inoquous tweet because it could be seem as mild criticism of a thing he was in is childish at best and bullying at worst.
 
Jameson

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Nov 23, 2017
430
Pekola said:
You should 100% be concerned with creators and companies directly trying to intervene with criticism of their art/product.

Not because the critics are always right or insightful. But because this industry has some major issues of control and obfuscation.

Neil Druckmann, Cory Balrog and now Troy Baker have (wether they intended or not) stoked the adversarial relationship gamers have with critics, by not respecting boundaries. It was not their place to do what they did.
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Great post, well said.

Jim been so good this week, great videos!
 
Chromie

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Dec 4, 2017
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ArchLector said:
This argument is so bad imo. Critics (and anyone and everyone) should be allowed to express their opinions on games, in return people (including actors and developers) should be allowed to say if the criticism is uninformed and shallow. Critics are not some impartial authority to be placed on a pedestal where no one should question what they say.
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I take it you're just responding to the title, aren't you?
 
Odeko

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ArchLector said:
This argument is so bad imo. Critics (and anyone and everyone) should be allowed to express their opinions on games, in return people (including actors and developers) should be allowed to say if the criticism is uninformed and shallow. Critics are not some impartial authority to be placed on a pedestal where no one should question what they say.
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But he didn't engage with the criticism at all, he posted an embarrassing quote (in this instance) about how critics are just trying to drag the "strong men" down and don't matter
 
Turin

Turin

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Oct 27, 2017
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The defensiveness for this game by people in some position of influence or power has been pretty embarrassing.

And I happen to think it's a pretty important game, in part because of its fallibility.
 
residentgrigo

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sfsAlg.gif

Who gets this joke? I am so glad I am not on Twitter. Arkham Origins is a good game and is further the best written Batman game to date.

The video starts of weird but it does go somewhere. The article Jim means:
www.polygon.com

The Last of Us Part 2 has become a minefield

Devs, critics, and fans butt heads over one of the year’s biggest games
www.polygon.com www.polygon.com
The game review scene is and continues to be a hellscape. I wonder where we would be if the game got a 7.8/10 on MC. Or lower. I would give it a 9/10 if I used that site. Can´t wait for all of this again on the PS5 once the remasters comes out and TLoU 2 isn´t too long. Some games are though.
 
dreamfall

dreamfall

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Oct 25, 2017
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Man, he should've waited a couple hours and then discussed the Vice review situation with Sony asking for clarification...

There's nothing wrong with being defensive about your work and wanting to defend it against anyone that has an opinion. If Last of Us 2 is about cycles of violence, the discourse on this game should be about cycles of abuse. For the developers, abuse for inclusion and representation and fans being upset about the spoilers. For critics, abuse and bullying for saying the wrong things or being dog piled because the same developers who felt that abuse feel like why not just bully critics that aren't presenting favorable opinions on Social Media. And then voice actors - uhhhh, yikes.

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion on the game and discussing said opinion on game - but when it comes to Publishers getting mad, pulling review copies and ignoring outlets because the reviews don't fit their favorable outlook, yeah this shit is as rotten as it gets.

And as for the game itself, the gameplay is wonderful to me. Most of the writing, and pacing are absolutely terrible to me. I don't understand why we can't highlight things about the game we like and don't like without it being some nebulous opinion backlash. Imagining the nightmare of a professional reviewer thinking if they don't give the game a "proper" score and the outcomes for their outlet from the publisher - just yikes.
 
turbobutts

turbobutts

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Oct 25, 2017
519
Reviewers approach a game and have a different perspective than typical players. I don't really feel the need to explain that to justify my opinion

litebrite said:
Amazing when critics are fawning over their product with praise, them being the least important or insightful perspective is never brought up but in fact are used to reinforce how great their game is.
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I dunno, I can't speak for everyone, only myself.
 
Anton Sugar

Anton Sugar

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,946
ArchLector said:
This argument is so bad imo. Critics (and anyone and everyone) should be allowed to express their opinions on games, in return people (including actors and developers) should be allowed to say if the criticism is uninformed and shallow. Critics are not some impartial authority to be placed on a pedestal where no one should question what they say.
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What are you talking about? Did you see what Troy posted? He didn't actually say anything about the tweet, he just lazily responded with a "hurr hurr it is not the critic that counts" quote.
 
Odeko

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turbobutts said:
Reviewers approach a game and have a different perspective than typical players. I don't really feel the need to explain that to justify my opinion


I dunno, I can't speak for everyone, only myself.
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At least your distaste for people with the ability to articulate and explain their opinions through writing seems to be logically consistent with your own style
 
Gold Arsene

Gold Arsene

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Oct 27, 2017
30,757
How you get this upset because one person made a crack about your game when you can't spit without running into a 10/10 review for it is surreal.
turbobutts said:
Reviewers approach a game and have a different perspective than typical players. I don't really feel the need to explain that to justify my opinion


I dunno, I can't speak for everyone, only myself.
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As opposed to the insightful players spamming either 10's or 0's on metacritic.
 
RedshirtRig

RedshirtRig

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Nov 14, 2017
958
Haven't watched a Jim Sterling video in quite a while, will have to check this one out when I can.

This whole TLOU 2 business has been a massive shitshow. From the haters doing their thing, to the few genuine critiques from critics being questioned, to Neal Druckmann and Troy Baker acting like children because legitimate criticism is leveled at the game.
 
gilko79

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Pekola said:
You should 100% be concerned with creators and companies directly trying to intervene with criticism of their art/product.

Not because the critics are always right or insightful. But because this industry has some major issues of control and obfuscation.

Neil Druckmann, Cory Balrog and now Troy Baker have (wether they intended or not) stoked the adversarial relationship gamers have with critics, by not respecting boundaries. It was not their place to do what they did.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Well said. I agree with this.
 
residentgrigo

residentgrigo

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Oct 30, 2019
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Lashley said:
It's weird how you can be praised by 9/10 people, but you focus on the 1/10 who criticize. I do the same thing.
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A LOT of film actors are famous for doing the same. Read a few autobiographies and you will see what I mean. Baker´s quote is weird but it's also harmless. The endless harassment of the staff that worked on the game for years is another factor. So I get why nerves are fried for ND employees right now. Poor Laura Bailey.
I would just focus on the sales record/accolades if I was them and filter their social media a bit. Or a lot.
 

Tyrant Rave

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turbobutts said:
Reviewers approach a game and have a different perspective than typical players. I don't really feel the need to explain that to justify my opinion


I dunno, I can't speak for everyone, only myself.
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reviews/critics are players just like us lol how do you think they even get into the industry
 
Altair

Altair

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turbobutts said:
Reviewers approach a game and have a different perspective than typical players. I don't really feel the need to explain that to justify my opinion
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If that's the case then why are games propped up by the "typical" player when reviews are good and torn down by said players when reviews are bad? This just seems like a way to dismiss any review that dares to be critical.
 
Terror-Billy

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I'm quoting Lincoln next time someone criticizes my adored Call of Duty microtransactions.
 
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