What scene did you have to sacrifice Connor for Hank? Both times I saved him involved me fighting or just losing the trail on the chase.
Detroit: Become Human - Spoiler Thread
- Thread starter Deleted member 15428
- Start date
Gotdamn that's like the secret bleak finisher to everything else, lol. >_<
Oh interesting, I grabbed the policeman's gun and shot the Android dead before he could even get a shot off.
It's hard to imagine there are actual people who needed this twist after several scenes of Markus being robot Jesus.
I don't see your point. Cause that is exactly why this scene was needed, the players see Markus be robot Jesus, they cheer for him as well as Connor and all other androids, they oppose the humans in the game at every choice they make but then they find out about Alice and somehow suddenly it ends up having a negative effect on their experience because she isn't human.
If you find that hard to believe then you can go to the OT and see people say how they opposed humans at every turn but Alice being an android ended up ruining Kara's story for them because they wanted her to be human, as her being an android makes the relationship less authentic and relatable. Which was pretty much the whole point of the twist's existence in the first place. -_- And most of all this is foreshadowed multiple times subtly (via Alice herself) as well as quite bluntly (via Luther) since the start of Kara's story. But the players, much like Kara...just didn't see it.
The people didn't need the twist, but the game wanted the people to think about their own opinion on Androids and their emotions via this twist.
Last edited:
Is there a walkthrough somewhere? I've got a couple of the endings now but neither of them were that great. Worst part was seeing Kara having to go through the border checkpoint and just knowing that she's completely screwed but still having to move forward until the end.
I mean, the only thing that the twist makes you think about is "why did Kara act so dumb in the game, what the fuck" which could detract from their enjoyment.
I've seen people who've voiced how they stopped caring for Kara's story after the reveal, that it became 'less interesting'. As one person in the OT mentioned, it's kind of a 'lame' way of addressing possible hypocrisy in the player -- but as a way of doing so, the way they did it was as good as you could make it without being too over the top. It wasn't in your face, and, yes, as you mentioned before, it makes Kara's deductive skills look like turd. But there are other players who did not pick up on it and what this allows is for them to bridge the final gap between how they view the characters and their struggles and their personal predispositions to their gameplay experience.
Yes it might make Kara look 'stupid' as well but it's better than pulling it out of their ass like with that ridiculous Heavy Rain twist. In here they make it clear that there's enough foreshadowing to go on, but some that are in fact still missable, either by not leafing through certain story/dialogue branches or simply not catching them.
It is the kind of thing you'd expect in a Cage game but it's in there. And when you think about why that would be in there, it's likely to connect certain players to that innate Theseus dilemma, while developing Kara's character as well. It's not perfect but I do think it's helped by the nature of the game.
I did. Just like Kara I suspected Alice wasn't human early on but I didn't want for it to be true for some reason. It felt wrong. Yet I opposed the humans at every other point.
When I had to face my own hypocrisy I realized just like my Kara that it just shouldn't fucking matter and got over it
Not sure if this was choice dependent or what but my Kara knew. Just like the player she didn't want to accept it. She broke her programming and wanted it to be for something meaningful and not an Android child as hypocritical as it is.
When she sees the ad flyer she gets a yellow LED and registers the information but pushes it away. When you ask Luther about it during the amusement park there is plenty of time to explain but Kara snaps at him "not now". For me it was obvious she knew what he wanted to say.
And when she finally gets confronted about it her reaction was more heartbreak and denial then shock to me.
Last edited:
It's not dumbness, you saw it as well from the start of the game but did you ever think about it until Luther brought it up bluntly?
Forget about Luther's foreshadowing for the moment, did you ever notice that the child android in the magazine in Alice's room looks just like her? Or that the photo of the child in Alice's box is totally of someone else and not Alice? Or when Alice says that if Kara knew her secret she would not love her anymore, or when Alice always refused to eat food?
Unless you saw those and figured out that Alice is an Android then you can't really say "all it shows is Kara is so dumb" because you couldn't figure it out yourself either until that Luther foreshadowing I suppose. And it's not like Kara was oblivious to it, Luther says this and even Kara acknowledges that she always knew but just did not want to see it. And that makes sense because all Kara wanted was to be a mother and all Alice wanted was to be cared and loved. There is nothing dumb about it, the mind just works in mysterious ways and sees what it wants to see...it's human nature.
Last edited:
Precisely.
Kara even has the option to say this to Rose at one point that she broke her programming because she wanted to protect Alice and and have a better life for her. That yellow LED is bang on proof that she knew something was up right from the start, and just like how the players glanced over it and ignored it despite sort of suspecting it, Kara did the exact same thing.
If that makes Kara dumb, then it also makes the players dumb to not realise this until Luther's super obvious foreshadowing (especially the 2nd time around at Rose' place, where again they had plenty of time but Kara didn't want to talk)
Some general thoughts.
1. I thought that what Luther was going to reveal about Alice was that she was terminally ill (cancer, leukemia) and that's why she didn't have appetite.
2. I thought rA9 was going to be revealed to be a disgruntled employee's secret code inserted to cause deviancy, or some kind of super AI (but that would've been too close to iRobot).
3. Connor was a beast in close quarters combat. He took out the 5 guards waiting at the bottom of the elevator, and the guards with shotguns in the Jericho hallway with Solid Snake-like precision.
1. I thought that what Luther was going to reveal about Alice was that she was terminally ill (cancer, leukemia) and that's why she didn't have appetite.
2. I thought rA9 was going to be revealed to be a disgruntled employee's secret code inserted to cause deviancy, or some kind of super AI (but that would've been too close to iRobot).
3. Connor was a beast in close quarters combat. He took out the 5 guards waiting at the bottom of the elevator, and the guards with shotguns in the Jericho hallway with Solid Snake-like precision.
Oh, shoot. That changes my perception of this being as simply ambiguous as I thought then.
In a way, my Kara's story path took a different tone -- she saw the article, she saw the signs, and when she heard Luther's voicing I had her go off in saying how much she loved Alice as a little girl, despite 'not knowing many little girls'. For me she just seemed so caught up with her that she wasn't really taking the time to worry about, you know, the 'possibility'.
But the fact that this gets addressed in front of her makes it much more clearly a story of self-denial particularly once we get to that Alice twist.
Once again, in spite of everything, in spite of sometimes off-kilter dialogue and occasionally artificial tact in the work as a whole, I just want to say Kara's story is done pretty well in this game. Reviewing the way the story goes about telling it sheds more light on a little depth existing beyond just the good performances and emotional intimacy, however.
Kara learns to fight against her programming and protect a girl she wanted to love -- but one she also viewed as her 'purpose'. What this insinuates, however, is a kind of possessive need, a la Joel in The Last of Us. In other words, a 'love' that is based on making someone yours, that makes you feel special.
Kara wasn't "innocent". She wasn't just clueless -- she wanted that feeling, that feeling of something fresh and new that added meaning to her life as a disposable, hated android.
Except, that is hypocritical of her; that was the same as saying that she depended on this human to make her feel special as an android, because of the fact that she was a young, human girl. In the back of her mind, she probably didn't want to accept this. But she probably still had reservations about her status as an android, insofar she felt Alice was more deserving of that love than her, and this kind of manifested in some straight-up Freudian maternal complex.
With the layer of ambivalence over Kara what we get is a more deliberate story of how an android woman realizes both the value in loving her self, and loving Alice as an android. And the fact this also, at the same time, reflects itself to the player is what gives this such a more interesting angle than it would if it were just in a movie or TV show, because you are now thrown into this interactive space that will determine these characters' fates. You are in Kara's shoes, making decisions based on your own personal factors, and this builds on that emotional connection -- and each type of player will have a different kind of reaction. It's an actually decent pairing of narrative devices.
After looking at this further, this is one of Detroit's stronger narrative arcs. It is more nuanced here in Kara's than the other two's, in fact. If they handled it with even more grace or symbolism it would be really, really great, but as it stands it is already a very neat characterization imo.
Last edited:
This is what I thought at first too by the way, infact this is all I thought of until the very end when Luther asks for the 3rd time at Jericho in the Crossroads chapter. That time was when I thought something was fishy but was still in denial. Then I saw robo Alice and was like "oh it's this, I saw this coming but still didn't", for a moment I felt like Kara's story mattered less now but when Luther said "Do you love Alice any less than you did before? She loves you Kara" that's when I told myself it doesn't matter because I am seeing a story about how androids and humans are the same and as such their relationships and emotions have the same authenticity.
In many ways it's actually better to have an Android break her programming to care for another Android (who she presumed to be human by being in denial), than it would be for an Android to break her programming to protect a human child. It just shows that regardless of the child being human or android that Kara would have broken her programming anyways.
Markus is an earlier model of Connor. They are the most advanced models CyberLife has and are not supposed to be in normal circulation. Markus was gifted to Carl by Kamski himself. Only those two have been shown to be able to pre-calculate paths through the environment, rewind events and are also both clearly the best fighters with the strongest physical abilities. Also only Connor and Markus can probe memories of other Androids by just touching them, which other Androids are very afraid of as seen with Connor. North also gets shocked by it when Markus does it on her the first time. So it is heavily implied that only Connor and Markus can transfer the deviancy virus right away without needing an emotional trigger like Kara.
Kamski basically confirms that the deviancy virus is dormant in every Android and was likely introduced with one model with a programming error and then transferred to every other Android by means of firmware updates and code sharing. Markus and Connor can just mutate the virus right away to activate deviancy while Kara needed a stimulus.
Another thing is that Amanda mentions that it was their plan all along to stage the Android revolution, then kill their leader and have Connor take over his/her place being in control by CyberLife. So it could easily be by design as well. Why CyberLife wants that is unknown, it could be that the AI went rogue and believes Androids should control the world or more likely it is a political manuever to increase the influence/market value of CyberLife further.
On that note Kamski also tells Connor that he built the emergency switch into the ZenGarden programm that Amanda doesn't know about that allows Connor to break CyberLife's control. Kamski is certainly a psychopath, but does seem to believe that Androids are the superior race and should take over eventually. That probably lead to a rift between him and other CyberLife executives causing him to depart.
It is likely he himself planted the software error/virus
Last edited:
So my endings on the first run:
- Kara and Alice together with Luther escaped successfully to Canada
- Connor became a deviant on Jericho and joined Marcus. In Cyberlife tower Connor helped to wake up thousands more androids but was confronted by another Connor android holding Hank hostage. After a fight between the two Connors Hank had to decide which one was the real one and based on the info i learned from him and the trust that was built up i managed to get the evil Connor killed.
- Marcus lead the revolution by freeing androids in the internment camps. In the end the world had to accept that androids would be living with them. However just as Marcus was giving his victory speech to the androids it was revealed that Amanda plan was all along for Connor to infiltrate Marcus's ranks and took over Connor again. There was a short time in the Japanese garden where i should've found an exit so that i could break the programing but i don't know if this is planned like this or not but literally as i think i found the means to break free it was too late and Connor was used to assassinate Marcus in the end.
- Kara and Alice together with Luther escaped successfully to Canada
- Connor became a deviant on Jericho and joined Marcus. In Cyberlife tower Connor helped to wake up thousands more androids but was confronted by another Connor android holding Hank hostage. After a fight between the two Connors Hank had to decide which one was the real one and based on the info i learned from him and the trust that was built up i managed to get the evil Connor killed.
- Marcus lead the revolution by freeing androids in the internment camps. In the end the world had to accept that androids would be living with them. However just as Marcus was giving his victory speech to the androids it was revealed that Amanda plan was all along for Connor to infiltrate Marcus's ranks and took over Connor again. There was a short time in the Japanese garden where i should've found an exit so that i could break the programing but i don't know if this is planned like this or not but literally as i think i found the means to break free it was too late and Connor was used to assassinate Marcus in the end.
Wow missed a whole lotta that on my evil Connor playthrough. xP Then again when I got the chance to ask Amanda questions I chose the one about her first and she said not to worry about it and moved on, so maybe I missed my chances. >_< In any case, that would be downright surface Machiavellian if the implications are to be true.
To be clear, a large part of CyberLife's operations is basically run by AI then?
This is certainly stronly hinted at. Amanda mentions Kamski "created this place...or well the first version of it ;)". Considering Amanda can react with emotions towards Connor too and refuses to answer when he asks "what does CyberLife actually want?" it does seem she has her own agenda. The entire CyberLife headquarter also looks like it is almost entirely automated, just with some guards. There are humans working there and several spokepersons appear in magazines throughout the world, but out of all the people talking there is never a hint at who the new CEO is. It could be just a puppet and that Amanda controls the actual interests at this point. Another thing that is strongly hinted at is that everyone suspects the president is a puppet too or strongly in bed with CyberLife
I want to see this epilogue. Found it.
So, Alice is begging Kara to save her while she is in processing in the magnetization chamber and help never comes from Kara or Markus. Kara will end up on a street in Canada alone looking at a flyer with child android ad.
- Kara escaped with Alice to the Canadian border. Luther died during Jericho and I was pissed. only 10% did that choice but I thought there was a better chance they would have been killed.
- Markus led and won the peaceful revolution, only had Josh and North survive. Liked how the President called it off after seeing them kiss.
- My deviant Connor converted the androids at Cyberlife after saving Hank from the Connor double and answering the question about Hanks son correctly which lead to Hank killing the duplicate.
- I made a lot of stupid choices, like the cop I saved got killed by the deviant in the media tower and Connor sacrificed himself to save Hank without a second thought. But due to this, Simon got a temporary lease on life and died for Markus later.
I am amused that so many people are pissed off by the Alice reveal. They made it really obvious, but what got to me was the hypocrisy of the players and Kara herself. It is as if none of it mattered, that her being an android designed to want a mother wasn't the same as saving a human girl from peril AND an android having a unique, maternal bond with a human child.
I want to have failed to convince todd, only 18% of players at the bus terminal convinced him not to rat out Kara. If you failed there would have been one HELL of a diverting flowchart from that alone.
I really enjoyed the different pacing of the characters and their role. For example...Kara is just trying to survive and live in peace, she osen't care about a revolution or being the ultimate android. But at the same time, a lot of her outcomes are based on factors outside her control such as Markus's actions.
I loved how all the trailers had a Blonde deviant Kara. IMO Black hair is bae.
But i want to know why they changed Alice from Black to white and Amanda from Crewella Deville to Black. They also changed Rose and Adam from white to black.
I think there are 2 aspects to the meta around Kara & Alice and sending one which of them applies to you will affect how you feel about the plot twist.
It comes down to "Is the important part that you as a player are want to protect this human child" or "Is the important part what you believe their human/non-human relationship represents?".
If you value the former, more than the latter (and perhaps may have committed various misdeeds along the way) then I suspect that the twist will hold more weight for you. Pointing out the hypocrisy there is part of the post if the twist.
If you were someone who placed more value in the latter though, then the twist doesn't work for you because it removes the premise that the two could genuinely care for each other despite their differences. Androids having genuine feelings for each other was not a new concept at that point.
I'm more of the second, so while I had no problem accepting Alice as an android (I'd also guessed it much earlier tbf), the reveal did weaken that storyline for me.
It also made me think of the validity of human constructs that we apply to the androids:
It comes down to "Is the important part that you as a player are want to protect this human child" or "Is the important part what you believe their human/non-human relationship represents?".
If you value the former, more than the latter (and perhaps may have committed various misdeeds along the way) then I suspect that the twist will hold more weight for you. Pointing out the hypocrisy there is part of the post if the twist.
If you were someone who placed more value in the latter though, then the twist doesn't work for you because it removes the premise that the two could genuinely care for each other despite their differences. Androids having genuine feelings for each other was not a new concept at that point.
I'm more of the second, so while I had no problem accepting Alice as an android (I'd also guessed it much earlier tbf), the reveal did weaken that storyline for me.
It also made me think of the validity of human constructs that we apply to the androids:
- eg is Alice somehow really more of a child than any of the others?
- While the others may have pre-constructed adult forms, they don't really have any more life experience or maturity and are adapting to awakening and their place and their place in the world with the same lack if answers as Alice.
- She's been programmed to emulate childlike mannerisms but 10 years from now would things be different? Would they somehow mature at different rates? Would Alice mature or are their blocks in here program to maintain child like mannerisms?
- Imagine being stuck as a child for eternity.
- While the others may have pre-constructed adult forms, they don't really have any more life experience or maturity and are adapting to awakening and their place and their place in the world with the same lack if answers as Alice.
- She's been programmed to emulate childlike mannerisms but 10 years from now would things be different? Would they somehow mature at different rates? Would Alice mature or are their blocks in here program to maintain child like mannerisms?
- Imagine being stuck as a child for eternity.
- Are the two "female" Tracis really "lesbian"
- Are any of the androids really gendered in the way we are - how do they even see that aspect of themselves?
- One of the options asking for a method of reproduction did make me question if they actually had genders as we consider them or that originated in the way ours did - or if that is just an expectation we as players/humans are forcing onto them?
- The "genders" they have are things that only exist to please humans. Why would they need to honour them?
- Are any of the androids really gendered in the way we are - how do they even see that aspect of themselves?
- One of the options asking for a method of reproduction did make me question if they actually had genders as we consider them or that originated in the way ours did - or if that is just an expectation we as players/humans are forcing onto them?
- The "genders" they have are things that only exist to please humans. Why would they need to honour them?
Last edited:
I would assume during casting the most talented actors/actresses were cast and they were looking for diversity so they invited a lot of diverse people to their casting calls. In the end the people that made it seemed like the best fit for their respective roles I would assume and since QD is set on scanning actors 100% they had to be changed post casting
OP
OP
I realized Alice was an Android when I noticed she always declined the food people offered her and said she wasn't sleepy in Rose's house. Turns out she was an Android but my impressions were false because she can and does eat and sleep in the beginning of the game, lol
Suspicious indeed. :p
Boy are there still a lot about CyberLife, android origins, and etc. we don't know about. Would have been interesting to see Connor somehow really delve into it as it sounds ripe for conspiratorial intrigue but once again I get if they wanted to keep things cohesive. I also kind of like the fact that it's left as more of a faceless husk who we get to see the closest to a direct representation of through Amanda, but otherwise still feels like something that transcends any of the main characters' scope.
Finally someone uploaded the singing scene I had with Marcus instead of the kissing one.
Man, it was so beautiful. Definitely one of the best and most powerful scenes in the game.
I also, like many others here, didn't like Marcus very much compared to the other protagonists
and didn't enjoy most of his sections but oh boy this scene made
me feel really vindicated for all the choices I made with him in order to remain
pacifist throughout the game and not lose any of my android comrades.
I just tried to ride the elevator up in the CyberLife HQ. Amanda shows up and is like "nice try Connor, but we are aware that the famous deviant hunter has turned deviant himself. You will be...terminated". And when the elevator door opens there are guards who gun Connor down immediately. So it seems she certainly gave that order
Yeah, it is more that she doesn't need to eat or sleep outside of her simulation to integrate properly into a household. After the escape there is little reason to stick to these old schedules
OP
OP
Also, I wonder if refusing to disable her heat/cold sensors early on makes her suffer even more at the concentration camp :o
Was it ever explained what ra9 was? I thought there would be some reveal or something with it since all deviants end up writing it over and over again, but I don't personally see anything in my play throughs for it.
Kamski says it is a religious figure for Androids. A codeword that stands for their god, their prophet, the person who will set them free. They cling onto the idea of rA9 for hope cause the situation seems otherwise hopeless. It can be Connor, Markus or North depending on your choices who will eventually try to become what rA9 stands for
Markus lead a peaceful protest with all his followers in-tact. He and North were lovers and their kiss on national TV in the final moments caused the president to call off the attack. 44% of people got this.
Kara, Alice, and Luther went to Canada together. 16% of people got this.
Connor turned deviant and Hank killed the fake Connor and the masses were converted. 49% of people got this.
Connor used the backdoor the founder left and didn't kill Markus in the end.
The majority of players got none of my endings.
Kara, Alice, and Luther went to Canada together. 16% of people got this.
Connor turned deviant and Hank killed the fake Connor and the masses were converted. 49% of people got this.
Connor used the backdoor the founder left and didn't kill Markus in the end.
The majority of players got none of my endings.
OP
OP
I wonder why people always expect some shocking revelation about rA9 when it's obvious and actually explained that it's just an Android's idea of God or a messiah
I think Kara can also die in the chapter where she escapes or kills Todd. I've read that she gets destroyed if you stay put and let Todd go rampant (instead of breaking your programming).
But you need her to survive till the highway chase scene for the I'll be back trophy, the highway chase Connor death is flagged as essential on the PowerPyx trophy guide.
I cannot overstate how glad I am that ra9 isn't a literal thing. From that early Connor interview on, I was so, so dreading the moment when it would be revealed that Markus (or alternatively, Alice) is Android Moses, or worse, that Alice is some impossible human-android hybrid.
Detroit is remarkably tame in its storytelling, and I love it for that.
Detroit is remarkably tame in its storytelling, and I love it for that.
OP
OP
actually, what was ra9 in the end? I dont ever remember getting an explanation.
OP
OP
rA9 is the savior of the Androids, whoever it is and whether or not it exists. It's a religious figure
It's more that ra9 came from somewhere. Who was the first to come up with it. Why do they have a compulsion to write it over and over. It's more than just "their god".
If you pick the abandoned house for Kara and Alice to hide the guy there says he doesn't know why he writes it over and over again. He just does.
I understand what ra9 "represents", it's more it's origin.
OP
OP
Markus. At one point even Connor says as much on the mission Public Enemy.
Sequel hook baby!!
But honestly speaking, it does look like that may be its ceiling. As in it really doesn't get any other explanation than 'the magic buzzword' that comes out of some unknown seed that every deviant ends up picking up on. It's either a dead end plot thread or just left in the background of the character story for the latter to take the forefront. I was hoping there would be more mysteries left to solve in some other obscure story branches though, but I'm guessing a lot of things are meant to be hinted at.
I know, it seemed like more than just a McGuffin at first. But no one really seems to know 'where' it came from originally and why it's called 'ra9', just what it represents. Its probably being the syntactic representation of a virus is the most insightful information it gleans in regards to these androids' analogous relationship to malfunctioning computers and gaining sentience.
OP
OP
OP
OP
I couldn't really enjoy it. It was extremely uncomfortable. I started thinking that Cage had "ripped off" the American civil rights movement / abolitionism a lot less and veered a lot closer to the Holocaust towards the end of the game. I can't say it didn't work. Watching the androids strip down to nothing and remove their skin was dehumanizing (appropriately). Watching them march off to where you can just barely see out of the corner of your eye what's happening inside the little tractor trailers...
I was very unsettled.
And my Kara only got captured right after saving Luther cause I hit the button by mistake! I was surprised there was no escape QTE.
Last edited:
OP
OP
I replayed the last chapter.
This time Markus won the battle on the field and the Madam President admitted that they had to share the planet. North as the lover was the survivor of the group.
Also I saved Hank's life and I prevented Connor from murdering Markus.
However, both Kara and Alice were shot at the final border control... How do I unlock the third option? (I've seen the one where Kara sacrifies herself for Rose)
edit: Seems like I will have to replay from earlier on as I don't have a Jerry option, nor Luther and neither a peaceful demonstration.
This time Markus won the battle on the field and the Madam President admitted that they had to share the planet. North as the lover was the survivor of the group.
Also I saved Hank's life and I prevented Connor from murdering Markus.
However, both Kara and Alice were shot at the final border control... How do I unlock the third option? (I've seen the one where Kara sacrifies herself for Rose)
edit: Seems like I will have to replay from earlier on as I don't have a Jerry option, nor Luther and neither a peaceful demonstration.
Last edited:
I think what's weirdest about the game is how there's like... no scenes of the robots desiring free will except when there's killing or murder involved.
The game frames anti-Androidism as similar to Antisemitism or anti-blackness but... 99% of people would see Androids that were pretty happy with everything going on.
Whereas, uhh, black people and Jews were clearly not happy with their persecution.
Like, there's no scenes where it shows an Android in a pseudo sunken place where they're forced by their owner to no longer go play with dogs anymore because of an allergy of the owner's or something. There's millions of reasons why intelligent life would want free will but Androids in Detroit literally only want free will when either they will die or some one they like will die.
It's a very basic understanding of why slavery and having no rights is bad...
The game frames anti-Androidism as similar to Antisemitism or anti-blackness but... 99% of people would see Androids that were pretty happy with everything going on.
Whereas, uhh, black people and Jews were clearly not happy with their persecution.
Like, there's no scenes where it shows an Android in a pseudo sunken place where they're forced by their owner to no longer go play with dogs anymore because of an allergy of the owner's or something. There's millions of reasons why intelligent life would want free will but Androids in Detroit literally only want free will when either they will die or some one they like will die.
It's a very basic understanding of why slavery and having no rights is bad...