The charges against the teen being upgraded to "Murder - Terrorist Activity" is fucking huge from a legal standpoint.
Amazing job by the justice system here.
Amazing job by the justice system here.
You might not intentionally be, but using the language of victimization absolutely contributes to it.
I should have been clear that we haven;t even tried deplatforming that much hence how pro incel podcasts end up in the New York Times.
And i'm glad you acknowledge deplatforming is important, again it's the only thing we can do immediately. I hope you'd admit that because what you're talking about is going to take you know decades... I don't think women can wait that long.
You clearly haven't read my posts. I'm literally talking about men using the ways they avoided going down those same paths in order to help boys do the same. But apparently that just makes us ex death cultists.
I've read your posts, it's still focused on making men the victim. Like the same pressures and shit exist for women and we don't all have ideal role models but we aren't all going around making terrorist organisations about raping and killing men, which incels do. It's not lack of role models or that they are depressed and lonely, it's that society is fine with women hating rhetoric and allows it to be spread, and social media platforms do nothing to stop it. Like I literally have an entire multi billion dollar industry that has told me since pretty much birth how I'm ugly and need multiple products to fix myself, and this is something that's been put on women for generations, and yet we aren't the ones snapping and killing others for being lonely or having low self esteem. The solution is not more sympathy for guys early on, it's nipping the behaviour in the bud so they never see it in the first place and that women aren't being continually victimised. That means deplatforming the shit.You clearly haven't read my posts. I'm literally talking about men using the ways they avoided going down those same paths in order to help boys do the same. But apparently that just makes us ex death cultists.
They hate women not themselves.... can't tell you how not helpful it is to hear toxic masculinity being used to establish incel who want to own, rape and murder women as victims in their own right.They are victims in a sense. They are victims of toxic masculinity, but they hate themselves and they act in ways that reinforce it instead of fighting against it.
I've read your posts, it's still focused on making men the victim.
The solution is not more sympathy for guys early on, it's nipping the behaviour in the bud so they never see it in the first place and that women aren't being continually victimised. That means deplatforming the shit.
So much this.I've read your posts, it's still focused on making men the victim. Like the same pressures and shit exist for women and we don't all have ideal role models but we aren't all going around making terrorist organisations about raping and killing men, which incels do. It's not lack of role models or that they are depressed and lonely, it's that society is fine with women hating rhetoric and allows it to be spread, and social media platforms do nothing to stop it. Like I literally have an entire multi billion dollar industry that has told me since pretty much birth how I'm ugly and need multiple products to fix myself, and this is something that's been put on women for generations, and yet we aren't the ones snapping and killing others for being lonely or having low self esteem. The solution is not more sympathy for guys early on, it's nipping the behaviour in the bud so they never see it in the first place and that women aren't being continually victimised. That means deplatforming the shit.
Also, the rhetoric "that easily could have been me" is harmful as it suggests it's easy to hate women and to end up wanting to murder them, and that's not exactly fostering a welcome environment for women, is it? I find it deeply uncomfortable reading that stuff in threads, it honestly feels dehumanising.
Calm down. When multiple women tell you a thing and are clearly finding something objectionable in your comments, it might be wise to take a step back and listen.This a detestable thing for you to say. I'm literally talking about us men taking the responsibility of doing everything in our power to stop this from happening. Isn't that something we all want?
Yeah, I find this really disturbing as well.I dunno as a woman I really don't want to hear how many men believe they were one bad month away from being capable of murdering me, and I don't think that kind of public discourse actually makes it better for women.... who again you know are the ones incels target.
Who the hell is "we"
You don't think you could've made that point without shitting on anyone who was victimized after age 10? And you are right, I don't know every single detail of how this person was radicalized, and neither do you. But I do know what being groomed and abused by online communities is like, and that experience combined with the experiences of other people who have been radicalized as minors by terrorist groups or hate groups tells me that this kind of thing doesn't happen overnight and that terrorist groups radicalizing minors into committing violence is abuse. It's an extremely common tactic for groups like this because teenagers are extremely vulnerable to this kind of abuse.I think you don't know how long this kid was an incel.... I think we should not default to the assumption that because he's 17 he must a victim himself.
You don't think you could've made that point without shitting on anyone who was victimized after age 10? And you are right, I don't know every single detail of how this person was radicalized, and neither do you. But I do know what being groomed and abused by online communities is like, and that experience combined with the experiences of other people who have been radicalized as minors by terrorist groups or hate groups tells me that this kind of thing doesn't happen overnight and that terrorist groups radicalizing minors into committing violence is abuse. It's an extremely common tactic for groups like this because teenagers are extremely vulnerable to this kind of abuse.
Toxic masculinity is a general concept that manifests in different ways and has to be handled in different ways. This is a thread about a very specific trend of bigotry and violence against women. Assigning that behavior to a broader "toxic masculinity" umbrella is not helpful and deemphasizes the extreme misogyny that drives this trend.I didn't say women weren't vulnerable in society or that incels aren't privileged.
People say the same thing about Nazis and ISIS all the time if you actually read up on how radicalization occurs. It's not unlike how parents are convinced to give kids bleach enemas or that AIDS isn't real. These people work like snake oil salesmen, using misinformation to trick people into seeking out solutions to their problems that benifit them financially or ideologically. In the case of incels they are tricked into blaming women instead of toxic masculinity and the culture that promotes it. They instead are told women are responsible for their misery.
The culture of toxic masculinity is the cause, and the cure is to dismantle it. Just like how parents will continue to give their autistic kids bleach since the disabled are treated like dirt and there is no support for them, so the parents are desperate for a "cure". Muslims are likewise radicalized into ISIS because of islamophobia and imperialism, convinced a theocracy will keep them safe.
Incels are yet another consequence of the failure of society to create community and empathy amongst itself. These men are told they are lesser due to their hight, or disability, or being introverted resulting in the development of self hate and victimization. Incels and the manosphere prey on this which is how we got to terrorism like this.
Like an illness, the best solution is prevention not treatment. In this case treatment is deplatforming and prevention is a culture change. Deplatforming is a powerful tool and absolutely should be used whenever possible, but if your desire is for this to stop then a culture change is essential.
Who the hell is "we"
I ain't trying to go sicko mode incel on women
The kids ISIS were grooming were 13-17, that's exactly WHY I brought it up. Why do you keep saying "10 years old" as if that's the cutoff point of grooming and abuse of minors?You started talking about ISIS child soldiers that's why I said he was 17 not 10
Thank you, that's the point I'm trying to make here.movements like these prey on young vulnerable boys, yes. it's the same with neo-nazis and religious extremism as others have brought up
i think that's a big argument for deplatforming. if this shit is not tolerated on youtube and other online spaces, that means there are that many fewer avenues for these people to reach the people they're trying to radicalize
They hate women not themselves.... can't tell you how not helpful it is to hear toxic masculinity being used to establish incel who want to own, rape and murder women as victims in their own right.
Toxic masculinity is a general concept that manifests in different ways and has to be handled in different ways. This is a thread about a very specific trend of bigotry and violence against women. Assigning that behavior to a broader "toxic masculinity" umbrella is not helpful and deemphasizes the extreme misogyny that drives this trend.
There are a number of things you can assign to "toxic masculinity". But do you want to go into a thread about, say, the Klan to tell people: "The problem here is lonely men told they are lesser, so they start putting on white hoods"? It's not helpful because A. It's not actually a solution, B. It glosses over the responsibility of hate groups and rhetoric, and C. It always brings the focus to helping the perpetrators and not the actual victims.
Every single dude alive is a product of toxic masculinity. An infinitesimally small portion of dudes turn to this incel shit to cope with whatever the fuck people are apparently saying dudes need to cope with. Incels are not a product of toxic masculinity anymore than the rest of us who don't want to peddle misogyny are not a product of it. Can we stop this shit?
Incels don't need empathy for how hard it is to be a guy and not get laid, or not make friends or whatever the fuck it is. That's life, that's what the fuck everyone has to sit and battle with. The whole "that coulda been me" shit is not helpful. Don't empathize with these people. They don't need empathy, they need to be stamped out of fucking existence. Women suffer the same issues of failing to reach acceptance, being alone, not being seen as attractive, not belonging. Women are not self organizing and then creating terrorist attacks. Women are not destroying the quality of life for everyone due to their own feelings of inadequacy.
This whole guys supporting guys angle is dumb. If you care about those things then support them in a broad scale since society as a whole experiences them. And understand, the way you stop people from being able to be radicalized by this idea is by having a society that doesn't place so much value on these things to begin with. Telling a boy growing up that "girls didn't like me and I had trouble getting dates and meeting people and it gets better" isn't the solution to the problem, no kid gives a fuck about someone way older giving them platitudes. The solution is for society to promote self worth and being able to find happiness in yourself and that some people end up alone and that's fine because you're the only person who defines your self worth. It's for men to tell other dudes that women are their own people and they simply have as much right as you to decide who they want to be with and that's perfectly fine.
Yeah we have to deplatform these dudes. No it isn't the end all be solution but what people here are vehemently defending isn't even a solution to begin with. It's the equivalent of saying "I coulda been a racist if one things had turned out slightly different for me so we need to reach out to these people" then using that basis to start a dialogue with racists. That's not the message you want. You don't want to frame these people as victims and you don't want to make the issue seem like its this super easy casual thing to get tripped up in. No it isn't.
Edit: Spelling mistake.
And understand, the way you stop people from being able to be radicalized by this idea is by having a society that doesn't place so much value on these things to begin with. Telling a boy growing up that "girls didn't like me and I had trouble getting dates and meeting people and it gets better" isn't the solution to the problem, no kid gives a fuck about someone way older giving them platitudes. The solution is for society to promote self worth and being able to find happiness in yourself and that some people end up alone and that's fine because you're the only person who defines your self worth. It's for men to tell other dudes that women are their own people and they simply have as much right as you to decide who they want to be with and that's perfectly fine.
By making a girlfriend and sex be the sole defining point of one's existence. These are men who might have started off introverted and interested in sex/relationships, but through a mix of a lack of self-awareness, stunted empathy, self-entitlement and reinforcement form the status quo it warped into beliefs that they've been denied it through a conspiracy orchestrated mainly by women and secondarily by the men they choose instead of them. They think their owed sex and women's bodies because paradoxically they feel they're a superior rarefied class of person that is supposed to be given what they want simply for existing. And in that mindset, sex workers or women in charge of their own bodies/sexuality in general are purposefully breaking a natural contract of not serving one of them exclusively. It isn't coincidence that pedophiles greatly intersect with these communities (HuffPo) and you can often see them fantasizing about girls as well as women their age amongst themselves because it's all about women being moldable, pliable toys useful for emotionally and sexually satisfying them specifically to obtain and discard at their whim.I don't get it. How do does this mindset even perpetuate? Like fuck, go get a hobby. Go hike a mountain. How the hell you go from "can't get gf" to stabbing sex workers???
HuffPo said:Today, incel forums are populated almost entirely by men, and discussions of extreme violence against women are commonplace.
As HuffPost recently uncovered, an incel who is also a white supremacist and a self-proclaimed pedophile is running for Congress. On various incel websites, including one he created, he argues that women and girls should be "rape-slaves" for men who can't find willing sexual partners. Such sentiments, though extreme, are not uncommon on incel pages.
Women "shouldn't have rights," a man on Incels.me wrote in April. He would like to hit a woman's face with a glass bottle "until it breaks, then pick up a glass shard and stab her in the vagina until it's unrecognizable or her guts spew out," he said. Another member, who says he is 18 years old, described his desire to choke an attractive woman to death. Yet another said he wanted to "brutalize a girl, break her legs, then sacrifice her in the forest."
Yes, spot on.I don't know how any man could think"these could be me" with incels. Do you think that of yourself when you see a racist, a nazi, a terrorist? Because it's the same.
Make no mistake, millions of people live without having had any relationship and they don't turn into incels, this is not about loners that didn't get laid or where alone or any shit, almost everyone has been in a dark place at a point in their lifes, this is just about straight evil mysogynistic men that use the incel ideology as a platform, same as how racist may use nazism or other platforms. This is not about getting laid, is just about hating women for not being objects and organizing around an ideology, and shouldn't be treated differently that other hate-ideologies.
Yes, spot on.
People are letting incels hijack, appropriate and own the concept of "involuntary celibacy". The majority of involuntarily celibates are people embedded within real life, they aren't weirdos on the fringes or edge of society.
Imagine Muslims reacted to Islamist terrorist attacks by saying "this could be me".
And understand, the way you stop people from being able to be radicalized by this idea is by having a society that doesn't place so much value on these things to begin with. Telling a boy growing up that "girls didn't like me and I had trouble getting dates and meeting people and it gets better" isn't the solution to the problem, no kid gives a fuck about someone way older giving them platitudes. The solution is for society to promote self worth and being able to find happiness in yourself and that some people end up alone and that's fine because you're the only person who defines your self worth. It's for men to tell other dudes that women are their own people and they simply have as much right as you to decide who they want to be with and that's perfectly fine.
Well said and thank you for enlightening me. The concept is just another manifestation of Toxic Masculinity that is in sheeps clothing. I wish there was a better term to describe this kind of situation.To be fair, I don't believe in the concept of "involuntary celibate". I feel qualifying someone not having a relationship as an involuntary celibate imposed on that person has some problematic connotations by itself. A relationship is always a 2-way road and classyfing it as involuntary seems to shift the blame in the other person or atleast exclude you of any responsability in your lack of success, atleast that's how I see it.
It's the least "involuntary " situation ever.
There are plenty of people in that bowel of a movement with profound incurable maladies and suffering I can't begin to imagine and in the abstract my heart breaks for their lot in life* - but it only exists as a movement because of the voluntary choices able-bodied mentally functional people make in the pursuit of peer acceptance where the pursuit of sympathy or companionship has failed.
They can choose to be alone and silent, or improve their lot, or learn to accept it - but instead they chose hatred and embraced unrelated ideas of bigotry and politics that were gifted to their credulity by the evil and banal forces manipulating them.
Even the most chisel jawed charismatic Chad on the planet has some empathy for loneliness or romantic frustration. But you're not entitled to it. You earn sympathy by doing better with what the world gave you- not channeling it into making everything worse.
I don't have a good alternative to offer those people but I do get to remind them that there's nothing involuntary about signing up for a forum and expending energy and treasure making the world worse for you and everyone in it.
The dopamine hit of Peer cred and upvoted rage is a helluva drug.
the other trope they throw out in some last ditch plea for sympathy is that the 21st century dating scene makes it harder than ever for people who are or consider themselves undesirable. The fact is that the opposite is true. Of course people swipe past you to date Chad online.
what do you think they did at the beach in the 80s? You think they ignored your lonely ancestor because of selfie angles? Your lonely beach ancestor didn't actually GO to the beach. You have vastly- exponentially more tools to find a companion now than have ever existed and at least online nobody's kicking San in your face. You're not standing alone at a bar in a loud club hoping vainly some girl will take pity on you. What's more, in 2020 you can tailor your persona and surgically identify people with the same interests and same surface level physical qualifications or lack thereof as you.
Yes it still might fail and you're still alone. That's better for you and the world than the path this guy followed.
I don't have a good alternative to offer those people but I do get to remind them that there's nothing involuntary about signing up for a forum and expending energy and treasure making the world worse for you and everyone in it.
The dopamine hit of Peer cred and upvoted rage is a helluva drug.
the other trope they throw out in some last ditch plea for sympathy is that the 21st century dating scene makes it harder than ever for people who are or consider themselves undesirable. The fact is that the opposite is true. Of course people swipe past you to date Chad online.
what do you think they did at the beach in the 80s? You think they ignored your lonely ancestor because of selfie angles? Your lonely beach ancestor didn't actually GO to the beach. You have vastly- exponentially more tools to find a companion now than have ever existed and at least online nobody's kicking San in your face. You're not standing alone at a bar in a loud club hoping vainly some girl will take pity on you. What's more, in 2020 you can tailor your persona and surgically identify people with the same interests and same surface level physical qualifications or lack thereof as you.
Yes it still might fail and you're still alone. That's better for you and the world than the path this guy followed.
* I'm not giving up on anyone on the fringe of going down that rabbit hole. I don't have magic answers or a bag of girlfriends— but if you need someone to talk to, pm me and I'll share what experience or advice I can. At least consider an alternative direction.
I don't know how any man could think"these could be me" with incels. Do you think that of yourself when you see a racist, a nazi, a terrorist? Because it's the same.
Make no mistake, millions of people live without having had any relationship and they don't turn into incels, this is not about loners that didn't get laid or where alone or any shit, almost everyone has been in a dark place at a point in their lifes, this is just about straight evil mysogynistic men that use the incel ideology as a platform, same as how racist may use nazism or other platforms. This is not about getting laid, you don't get radicalized into hating women if you don't already have any grudge against them, these are hateful people that seek and find validation in their hate around an ideology, and shouldn't be treated differently that other hate-ideologies.
The whole teaching boys to be better as they're growing up thing is great and all, and needs to happen, but what your post and almost every other post from a man in this thread are missing is actually taking the responsibility to speak up when you hear that shit being spewed. That's something you can actually do immediately to help. Right now, that responsibility is mostly taken up by women, who men (especially incels) simply do not listen to and respect enough to stop. This means when you hear a friend (especially in an online space) or a coworker saying some shit, you speak up and shut that shit down. The problem is most men are too afraid of being considered "weak" or god forbid "a feminist" for speaking up against violence against women, so they simply stay quiet and let this shit go on. If you don't speak up, people think it's okay. People think you're in on it with them. This is obviously like aside from deplatforming places where incels and nazies, etc. can thrive, but these are things we all can do right now to help set the tone.Incels are absolutely not victims in any sense.
I'm not talking about converting incels. They're too far gone. We absolutely need to deplatform them. We absolutely need to stamp them out. We need stronger laws on hate speech, and misogynistic hate speech specifically. Just as with this incident, we need to recognize it for the terrorism it is.
But what I'm also talking about is we men, as parents, role models, peers, the media, and men in society in general getting to boys earlier so they never come to that point - teaching them properly. Or at the very least, getting them right before they make that choice and cross over too far. And I'm not talking about doing so through empathy and understanding, but teaching them about how these warped feelings are simply wrong. I'm placing the responsibility on us men to stop us from producing as many more of these monsters as we can. We (men) have made the problems of these monsters to begin with - we have to stop them from being created. And I have to believe we can stop them from growing up this way, because if I don't, I feel like I'm giving up responsibility for the changes we need to make.
When I personally speak about a time earlier in my life when I didn't hold the views I hold now, you have to understand, although I don't think those ways anymore, I absolutely saw guys that went the other way. I saw the radicalization happening. And even though 99.99% of those treading deeper into misogyny would never themselves commit acts of violence, they were perpetuating it. And again, I'm talking about like 17 years ago, but for me, that was things like you'd be on a part of 4chan that certainly wasn't great about women, like the channels on video games, and then you'd watch as certain users progressed into much worse parts of it, and then other sites.
To some of us, this radicalization was something we watched happening in real time. So for me at least, I'm not necessarily saying 'it could have been me', but more 'how many around me became like that? was I really so close to that?'. So when I talk about stopping this radicalization, it's not because I empathize with those who are too far gone, but because I saw it happening, it makes me believe it CAN be stopped.
Wait, really? THAT part makes no sense to me.Honestly the thing is that a lot of the people in the movement have had sex before. Many are married. Like, the identification at this point is solely about (re-)normalizing the abuse of women.
Wait, really? THAT part makes no sense to me.
And here I thought I was finally understanding things.
Incel seems to have really lost its meaning. There are plenty of decent people out there that are involuntarily celibate. Some are outright shy or just have difficulty meeting people. It's crazy how it's completely taken on this new meaning of people that want to hurt women. Now it's throwing people who are socially awkward on the pile with certified nut-jobs, many of whom are married and not actually incels (as in the term it's actually short for), as all being incels.
I'm talking about the word and how it's used generally because it has two very different meanings now. So it's more of an association thing than anything else. Being an incel was never a good thing, but now with this movement there's a lot more weight and assumed meaning behind the word than originally intended. The word itself is wrapping these two different parties together, at least that's how I'm viewing it.wait, who's doing that!?
There are plenty of horny lonely dudes reading this story and thinking that guy's a fucking loser POS - and as alone or desperate as they feel - are never ever ever going to blame it on society or women - some of them will just accept it, some of them know it's temporary and some of them will do things to actively improve their lot. But nobody in this thread is conflating any of those people with violent or hateful organized incels. 99.9% of us can absolutely empathize with feeling weak or alone or shunned or ugly. That's a universal human condition - worse for some than others and sometimes chronically so. But the idea that any non-Chad is an incel isn't a thing.
Poking fun at your friend for being a virgin or a shut in, does not create a murderer. And being miserable about having no girlfriend doesn't prompt normal people to join a community of hateful turds. And there's no meaningful movement of people suggesting, thinking or believing anyone who's not a 4th dan cockmaster is an incel.
I'm talking about the word and how it's used generally because it has two very different meanings now. So it's more of an association thing than anything else. Being an incel was never a good thing, but now with this movement there's a lot more weight and assumed meaning behind the word than originally intended. The word itself is wrapping these two different parties together, at least that's how I'm viewing it.