Deadly attack at Toronto erotic spa was incel terrorism, police allege
- Thread starter excelsiorlef
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Yes and we don;t do that by talking about incels as being vulnerable men treated poorly by culture.
And I love that you compared imperialism to being short and introverted...
Like legit dude you're infantalizing them.
Not to mention tying fucking disability with becoming a terrorist is fucking shitty as fuck.
I think there's value in men reflecting on what we did differently that led us down the path of not becoming like these monsters. When I was a teenager (I'm 35 now), there was absolutely societal pressure to be in a relationship. There was absolutely a sense of a man being a loser if he's a virgin at 18. There were times when I did start to buy in to stupid things like 'nice guys always finish last'. Now, I didn't take those thoughts further into the territory of 'I am owed sex' or anything like that - so why didn't I?
I can reflect back on the parenting I had, the positive male role models I had around that time that never acted that way, the positive communities I was a part of at the time. So I think there's value in thinking about these things for how we, as men, can prevent as many boys from going down these monstrous paths.
You're absolutely right that it's us men that are failing boys in this way, and that's why I think this reflection is valuable.
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Yes but I think it needs to be somewhat decoupled from incel discussions on some level, as it often ends up centering the incels as victims again.
And I think far too many men play into this idea that it could have been them... and that's dangerous because it kinda normalizes incels
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Like there's literally a podcast that interviewes incels and argues that incels areunfailry maligned... It's on Itunes, Imagine a pro ISIS podcast on Itunes.
Not really.
Radicalization of people into violent terrorists has been around as long as terrorism has.
As for men playing into this idea that "it could have been them" is just recognition that some of us were at a low point in our life and were surrounded by people who could have led us astray.
I think that kind of awareness is key to combating radicalization.
Incels ARE terrorists but it's key to stop them recruiting others before they go too deep into the rabbit hole and kill people.
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I dunno as a woman I really don't want to hear how many men believe they were one bad month away from being capable of murdering me, and I don't think that kind of public discourse actually makes it better for women.... who again you know are the ones incels target.
Doesn't this go much beyond incels? So many men think like this and they are not incels. I would even go as far as saying that maybe a majority of men think like that to some degree.
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The original Nazis.... Specifically. The American ones get the same pass incels get because they're mostly white western men.
It's not the best comparison, but that's why I made other comparisons. Your reading comprehension is better than that, so please don't misrepresent my viewpoint.
I'm looking at things in a logical way to consider how these people got to where they are. If we can't look at how these people got to where they are and solve that problem then it just going to keep happening, no matter how many you deplatform.
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It's a really really bad comparison....They get where they are because not enough take it seriously and treat it as a violent threat, and coddle them.... We coddle incels.
Like the cause of incels is not a culture that lacks empathy... not for incels... literally all they fucking get is empathy, that's what allows their recruiting sites, youtube pages, and twitter feeds and reddit pages to exist.... because they're not treated as a terrorist group.
I think the video version of this cast got recommended to me on YouTube both of them were yacking it up in the thumbmail as if this is supposed to be some feel good interview
Again, what is your solution outside of deplatforming? Because if you don't look at how these people get violent then the violence won't stop. You'd be stuck fighting a war of attrition with no end in sight.
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The host just recently announced she's interview a guy who believes in Vagina Captialism and that love doesn't exist!!!! But remember they're unfailr maligned as misogynists :P
She also loves Jordan Peterson.
What's yours besides dismantling the patriarchy?
We need to dismantle the patriarchy but like not because of incels.
Because literally you've described them as short, mentally ill, introverts who are vulnerable men wronged by culture.... I'm really not sure how that helps stop them.... when it just encourages people to feel sorry for them.
I don't think saying "that it could have been me" in front of women is the proper way to go about it.
It's really wild the whole thing. There's no real centralized ideology, it just starts around not getting laid and not knowing female anatomy (they make this apparent a lot)
After that it goes into race realism, male supremacy, sex slaves, women losing the rights to vote and pretty much most other gross things you can think of. There's nothing redeeming or unique about them besides a shared hatred.
They snuck into acceptance on different platforms out of pity, but the entire thing was malicious from the start. People used to just point and laugh, but too many people took them seriously and their numbers grew because of that exposure. That's how they were able to get so huge. Big cockroach that seems to be chillin on the counter at this point with the rest of the family.
It's one of many reasons, yes.
I personally can't see a better solution. Because until then it won't stop. If people just see Incels as terrorists it'll be like ISIS or Nazis where people take down their websites only for 10 more to spring up. Sure it helps but again, doesn't solve the problem.
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A Podcast Playlist That Digs Deeper (Published 2019)
Our monthly selection of the most interesting new shows will help guide you through the podcast glut.
IMAGINE AN ISIS ISN'T EVIL PODCAST GETTING COVERAGE IN THE NEW YORK TIMES
Apparently once you get really deep into the cult it's barely about sex anymore. I mean they could always hire an escort if that was the biggest issue.
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This is from the New York Times
Tell me again how step 1 is Destroy the patriarchy and talk about incels with victim terminology.
Like for all your insinuation of me being unrealistic.... I'm tlaking about aggressive moderation of online spaces... you're talking about the complete deconstruction of the male societal hierarchy (which needs to be done but not because it'show we save the incels)
Well I can definitely understand your fears here. But I just think people identify that they could have fallen into that crowd, not necessarily that they'd be committing murder. When people are truly vulnerable that's when they're most at risk.
The whole movement needs to be deplatformed somehow, the extremists need to be taken off the streets before they kill someone and the others need to find a better place to get help with their loneliness, depression, anger and other issues they're dealing with.
I hopefully explained it above but I don't think people are saying they were almost an incel murderer, just that they were in a tough spot before in their life.
That kind of introspection and self awareness is important and could be helpful in assisting others who are in a shitty part of their life with no one talk to who can steer them in a positive direction.
I'd be the first person to line up and call the NYT trash lol
I'm not calling for normalization ffs. Read my posts. I even said deplatforming was a useful tool.
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But we're talking about the murder, and the rape, and the desire to own women... that's what incel is
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You might not intentionally be, but using the language of victimization absolutely contributes to it.
I should have been clear that we haven;t even tried deplatforming that much hence how pro incel podcasts end up in the New York Times.
And i'm glad you acknowledge deplatforming is important, again it's the only thing we can do immediately. I hope you'd admit that because what you're talking about is going to take you know decades... I don't think women can wait that long.
A Podcast Playlist That Digs Deeper (Published 2019)
Our monthly selection of the most interesting new shows will help guide you through the podcast glut.www.nytimes.com
IMAGINE AN ISIS ISN'T EVIL PODCAST GETTING COVERAGE IN THE NEW YORK TIMES
You don't think nobody has ever done a journalistic piece, or podcast, or documentary where they discuss with self-described Islamists?
But yes de-platforming would help.
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Do you think they've done it with the expressed purpose of arguing ISIS isn't a terrorist group and the media is unfair to ISIS? Because that's what that podcast does... because that podcast is done by a honey Badger affiliated Jordan Peterson fan...
Well, in this case (and even this terrorist attack) the hate group is radicalizing minors, which is a form of child abuse so yeah there is absolutely victimization going on there. Just like when ISIS recruits teenagers or warlords conscript child soldiers, it's a form of grooming and should be recognized as abuse. That said...even in this instance the abusers are the adult incels grooming the minors to do their bidding.
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I was going to write something like that, you can't have an honest conversation with a movement that believes that 50% of humanity is inferior to the other half.
Deplatforming is what needs to be done atm.
Yes I know. Stop them before they reach that stage.
If men are to combat this problen, acknowledging that they too were in a tough spot in their life and they dealt with it in a positive way (instead of joining a hate group) is the kind of wisdom that needs to be spread far and wide.
Radicalization takes time, I guarantee you it started much earlier than that. In the case of teenagers being recruited to ISIS, terrorists would establish contact with potential victims and then groom them for years before finally getting them to go to ISIS territory. This comment is incredibly dismissive, most victims of grooming and abuse through the internet were much older than 10 when it started. I'm saying this to you as someone who was groomed and sexually abused in online communities starting from age 13.
I think there's a subset that the uninformed could consider incels who only hate themselves, but not other people or society.
I guess the important thing is that we need to establish that the people I'm referring to are separate from incels, because we need to keep the hate movement separate from the presumed millions who hate themselves but don't want to harm others over it.
(I need to not call myself an incel, is the other thing)
(My old roommate called me a gymcel)
(fuck that guy)
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I really don't think men bonding in public spaces, inhabited by women, over how close they all came to joining a misogynistic death cult is helpful no.
You've made it quite clear how you feel and now you're just being rude.
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I think you don't know how long this kid was an incel.... I think we should not default to the assumption that because he's 17 he must a victim himself.
I'm driving the point home how fucked up it is for women to hear constantly how men were just one bad decision away from becoming a member of a terrorist death cult that targets you know them. I'm sorry if that's rude.
Yes because suggesting that we need to be kind to people who talk about how they nearly so thought you were sub human for being women and how understandable it is to go that place is perfectly polite? NEWSFLASH: women go through all the same shit as men and also get lonely/depressed, they didn't make a terriorist organisation over it and they don't get sympathy when they complain how shitty life is. Where's your understanding and sympathy to excelsiorlef for being understandably angry that there's a terrorist organisation dedicated to killing women? Honestly, women get treated harsher for complaining about mysogny then men do for actually being mysognists. The sympathy is reserved for men and not the women who are actually the victims.
What's rude is you constantly mis characterizing what people are saying.
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I'm hoping to get them to consider how their solutions affect women, who are the targets of this misogynistic terrorist group.
You clearly haven't read my posts. I'm literally talking about men using the ways they avoided going down those same paths in order to help boys do the same. But apparently that just makes us ex death cultists.