Warning: Inflammatory
A single letter is ample for a lot of subpar's posts. :)
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Black Panther |OT| Wakanda Forever (Unmarked Spoilers)
- Thread starter Quick
- Start date
A single letter is ample for a lot of subpar's posts. :)
I guess I'm alone in thinking that everything doesn't have to have equal representation as long as there is representation in some forms of media?
You do recognize the poster right? He's an admitted troll...
If that post was a troll it's an especially weak one. It didn't come across as trolling.
Are you saying that because BP is a good representation, that it's enough and other movies don't need to be more diverse? I want to make sure I'm understanding you right
Probably. Are you saying this with the idea that you want straight white dudes having the lion's share of the representation over all other minorities? Or would you be okay being excluded above everyone else?
Nope. I'm saying that Rawlings work didn't "need" to have greater representation even though I want more POC represented in all forms of media. That's what I'm saying.
i might have enjoyed the Harry Potter works more, but who knows.
So I saw the movie today and I fear all the hype led me to having too high expectations and being disappointed by the movie.
People always complained that the Marvel movies feel safe and I didn't feel that way personally until Black Panther. I would rate it the same as the first Captain America movie. It felt like a film they had to make so they have the origin story covered and can move past it to the interesting arcs of the character. Incidentally I felt it had the same problems like Cap 1: it took itself way too seriously, it dragged on at times, it had a one dimensional villain and weak as hell battle choreographies.
And the biggest elephant in the room of course is the clash of Wakanda being the technologically most advanced place on earth while still being a stronghold of african culture. While I liked all the colorful customes, the landscapes and the ceremonies ad such, even if I can't really relate to all of it (just like all the american centric WW2 stuff in Cap1), it's really jarring that Black Panther is the only one that has a full body armor and there aren't any soldiers that have any kind of ranged weaponry or something more advanced than spears and swords. I get that they don't need such things like tanks or so since they just defend their country and everything, even their clothes and rhinos, are made of Vibranium, but come on, they clearly have more advanced weapons like Klaues blaster or the weapons they were about to ship into the whole world and there is no special elite unit that uses any of it? Thats just not believable.
If the Infinity War trailer is anything to go by that problem will persist there as well, but hopefully the Russos will at least get some better choreographed fights out of it.
Also if they practically had a plant that can make supersoldiers why don't they have at least all the kings guards have them? They were pretty quick with burning them down when they have been ordered and threatened to, so I would think it would be possible for the king to order giving the plant to others than him after a bit of convincing.
But the real headscratcher is that the Wakandians still decide who becomes king with a hand to hand duel. Thats incompatible with being an advanced society in the 20th century and especially with the land that claims to be the most advanced on earth. And the worst is the whole plot hangs on it and only the main characters are the ones smart enough to ignore that tradition as things went southwards.
All in all in was still a fun movie, but as I already said it felt like a movie that needed to be done just to have a foundation to build the next movies on.
Also, M'baku was the real star of the movie and he was woefully underused.
People always complained that the Marvel movies feel safe and I didn't feel that way personally until Black Panther. I would rate it the same as the first Captain America movie. It felt like a film they had to make so they have the origin story covered and can move past it to the interesting arcs of the character. Incidentally I felt it had the same problems like Cap 1: it took itself way too seriously, it dragged on at times, it had a one dimensional villain and weak as hell battle choreographies.
And the biggest elephant in the room of course is the clash of Wakanda being the technologically most advanced place on earth while still being a stronghold of african culture. While I liked all the colorful customes, the landscapes and the ceremonies ad such, even if I can't really relate to all of it (just like all the american centric WW2 stuff in Cap1), it's really jarring that Black Panther is the only one that has a full body armor and there aren't any soldiers that have any kind of ranged weaponry or something more advanced than spears and swords. I get that they don't need such things like tanks or so since they just defend their country and everything, even their clothes and rhinos, are made of Vibranium, but come on, they clearly have more advanced weapons like Klaues blaster or the weapons they were about to ship into the whole world and there is no special elite unit that uses any of it? Thats just not believable.
If the Infinity War trailer is anything to go by that problem will persist there as well, but hopefully the Russos will at least get some better choreographed fights out of it.
Also if they practically had a plant that can make supersoldiers why don't they have at least all the kings guards have them? They were pretty quick with burning them down when they have been ordered and threatened to, so I would think it would be possible for the king to order giving the plant to others than him after a bit of convincing.
But the real headscratcher is that the Wakandians still decide who becomes king with a hand to hand duel. Thats incompatible with being an advanced society in the 20th century and especially with the land that claims to be the most advanced on earth. And the worst is the whole plot hangs on it and only the main characters are the ones smart enough to ignore that tradition as things went southwards.
All in all in was still a fun movie, but as I already said it felt like a movie that needed to be done just to have a foundation to build the next movies on.
Also, M'baku was the real star of the movie and he was woefully underused.
I'm wondering if the shift in Killmonger's presentation from anti-hero to outright super-villain closer to the end could've had anything to do with representing Killmonger as he is in the comics. Is there any merit to that idea? Is Killmonger in the comics a warlord -type?
I don't really mind this. Wakanda is supposed to be so advanced, but they are mired in traditions. Some will want to make progressive strides while others want to stay conservative.
Thank you for clarifying, but my response remains the same. Not only does the way JK Rowling describe, say, Hermione leave the door open to the idea that she can be a black girl, or even Harry can be a black kid other than the emphasized description of his green eyes. Hence, if one were to adapt this property into a new series, and switch things up like making them black, it would be a new and interesting take on the characters. Diversity is inherently good to storytelling in 99% of cases.
It's impossible to consider him an anti-hero. He deserved to die. The film gave you enough groundwork to care why.
She could have held up the Starbucks line, and Killmonger's bae put in the hit.
I do like how they stopped calling him Erik and just Killmonger. Like, I get it cause it's a comic book movie but at a certain point you're calling someone "Killmonger". Even for a comic name that's a bit lol worthy.
So after watching the movie a second time, my biggest complaints are:
- The action choreography and editing in some of the action scenes leaves to be desired.
- The movie has a typical Marvel third act. I mean, Marvel's third acts are fun, but I wanted something more personal and gritty for the climax of this movie.
- Some of the CGI, especially in the third act, is just bad.
- The Black Panther costume from Civil War was cooler than the one T'Challa wears in this movie.
Otherwise, this is one of my top Marvel movies for sure.
- The action choreography and editing in some of the action scenes leaves to be desired.
- The movie has a typical Marvel third act. I mean, Marvel's third acts are fun, but I wanted something more personal and gritty for the climax of this movie.
- Some of the CGI, especially in the third act, is just bad.
- The Black Panther costume from Civil War was cooler than the one T'Challa wears in this movie.
Otherwise, this is one of my top Marvel movies for sure.
There's nothing subpar about Black Panther.
They literally never call Erik Killmonger. The closest they get is Ross saying it the one time when explaining his backstory "he racked up so many kills they started calling him Killmonger."
Not that I'd have minded if they had used the name a few times. Shit, it's a live title lol. Villain names are an art form. Don't wanna fuck around and end up being Taserface.
They literally never call Erik Killmonger. The closest they get is Ross saying it the one time when explaining his backstory "he racked up so many kills they started calling him Killmonger."
Not that I'd have minded if they had used the name a few times. Shit, it's a live title lol. Villain names are an art form. Don't wanna fuck around and end up being Taserface.
Up until the point where they go 'All those scars are the people he killed' I don't know about that. Poisoning the historian (I can't recall if she died), his objection to Klaue's giving the guard hope, and working with Klaue was contextualized by him trying to earn Klaue's trust to make him vulnerable. Shooting the female crew member / girlfriend also seemed very 'It's a shame, but the mission is bigger than you' anti-hero - like. Then of course he executes Klaue, a bad guy.
The film makes him impossible to consider an anti-hero but I felt does it later in the film with his very super-villain manical demeanor in his final scenes (excluding his actual final scene). A shift that did make narrative sense, but did make T'Challa the de facto hero where it could've been more complicated.
Anyway I'll try to make this the last time I talk about it in the thread - I do just find it interesting to discuss.
Just imagine there being a country like Wakanda suddenly coming to the world stage out of nowhere IRL, someone aks them how their leaders are elected and they say "Yeah, we have 5 tribes in total and every tribe can send a competitor to a death battle to decide who becomes king". It's sounds so out of left field, even for a fictional universe like the MCU.
When T'challa talked to M'baku in his throne room he literally calls him Killmonger. I don't think he was ever mentioned by any name again after that point.
That's the thing though. Wakanda is a society that was never colonized by the Western powers, and that has remained isolated from the outside world for thousands of years. In that context it makes sense that they would keep their ancient traditions.
I wanted to start a post on this but I can't. This movie pissed me off so bad. Not because of the content. But the context. Why does the only image my daughter gets to see of us being royalty have to be set in fantasy marvel universe?
I was in advanced classes my whole life and never learned about the Mali empire until I was a sophomore in college. Why does the birth of humanity always get reduced to savagery when speaking of the lives we lived before the slave trade. As if they saved us from ourselves.
I hope this movie helps green light a Mansa Musa or queen Nefertiti biography.
I was in advanced classes my whole life and never learned about the Mali empire until I was a sophomore in college. Why does the birth of humanity always get reduced to savagery when speaking of the lives we lived before the slave trade. As if they saved us from ourselves.
I hope this movie helps green light a Mansa Musa or queen Nefertiti biography.
But they still had taps on the outside world, they watched movies like Back to the Future (that Sneaker joke was genius btw) and they probably have access to the internet as well, even if the open public in Wakanda probably does not have access to it to avoid accidently spilling something about Wakanda.
They were isolated, but not blind or immune to outside influence.
Lord have Mercy, a Marvel film that dares to be somewhat serious, that dares to try and actually be about something! How boring, how dull.
The same reason it has taken us our entire lives to see 2 hours of Black excellence onscreen with a multi-million dollar budget.
Royalty aside, a movie this homogeneously Black with depictions of strength without compromise (or a White savior) has NEVER happened in my lifetime.
That is what pisses me off.
It's a tradition evolved into a formality. The whole tone around it of being excited in the beginning conveys it. In modern practice the new king secures loyalty long before the Challenge Day and succession is done peacefully with it being a ceremony. Like the "speak now or forever hold your peace" part of a wedding, it isn't something that is taken seriously. Which is why it's a shock that M'Baku shows up for an actual challenge.
Even beyond the challenge day the 5 tribes all sit as equals and speak freely discussing issues at hand. In this sense Wakanda behaves more as a Republic than a monarchy
Doesn't mean they would feel the need to change their traditions. They are after all the most technologically advanced civilization on Earth. They are doing pretty well by themselves.
The big draw of the MCU is that they know when to be serious and when to be funny, and this movie definitely did not. Just look at all the scenes where M'baku makes fun of the situation. All those scenes are elevated by it.
Okay, I can buy that explanation, but the elders still did nothing when Killmonger killed T'Challa or as he threatened to kill one of his own people just before burning the plants.
I was at the Halal food truck outside my job with no coat.
A woman comes up behind and asked me was I cold.
I said "I never freeze" to her (laughing on the inside at my stupid pun)
she says to me "WAKANDA FOREVER!"
Thought that was cute.
A woman comes up behind and asked me was I cold.
I said "I never freeze" to her (laughing on the inside at my stupid pun)
she says to me "WAKANDA FOREVER!"
Thought that was cute.
Nah, I can agree that, that part doesn't really make a lot of sense. But, I suspend my disbelief considering that Asgard doesn't seem much better. But, the idea that they've made technological progress for so many years but have made zero social progress is a little weird. Like, it's still apparently an absolute monarchy that determines its successor through ritual blood death combat. It's not completely unrealistic when you have countries like Saudi Arabia around, but it paints Wakanda is a bad light, as less "enlightened." If I could change things I'd make it so the monarchy is not absolute, the King is the figurehead and protector, but he's bound by the will of an elected Council. I'd also make the ritual blood combat a really ancient rule that most people have forgotten, but Killmonger being an expert on history knows about it and invokes the ancient right through his royal blood.
But again, it's just something you have to suspend your disbelief. I also laugh at the complaints as to why the final battle is a melee fight and not them just shooting each other with plasma guns and tanks. It's pretty obvious, melee combat is more visually interesting and emotionally compelling. The same reason Star Wars always devolves into lightsaber battles. You can't have the characters engage in emotional battle as easily when their shooting at each other from a thousand yards away.
An outsider coming in and abusing a political system that relies on the honor of it's head of state is a pretty clear parable to today.
Plus on the whole 'how are these traditions even still a thing' front, it's worth remembering there's several dozen monarchies in power right now in Europe. Yeah, most of them are constitutional monarchies, but the point is that technological level and political structure aren't directly related. Yes, they very much influence each other, but having ray guns doesn't mean you're automatically gonna be a democracy or whatever.
Does coming to America count? That's honestly what made me interested in African royalty as a kid but I never got to actually explore it until college. And it had the SAME themes of American ignorance regarding the African savagery trope. I just want Oprah and Tyler Perry to back to brinx truck up to Cooglers house and let him tell ALL the stories of African royalty to our children and hope this piece of shit country does better for them than it didn't for us.
Wrong. It's a franchise within the overall banner of superhero that tackles different genres and tones. Unfortunately, we haven't had a more serious film since Civil War, which itself was barred down with some weird tone problems, instead we've had a string of their more light-hearted adventures. Strange, Ant-Man, Guardians, Thor: Ragnarok (Thor itself starting out much more serious), such that now we're finally coming back to a film that manages to take itself somewhat more seriously. And, surprise, it's also one of the best MCU films. It's not a surprise that the other most highly revered Marvel film, The Winter Soldier, is also a more serious film. Character drama and clear themes that are actually explored are more interesting than jokes and quips 24/7.
I would have disagreed with that in a pre-Trump world, but here we are...
Come to think of it, how awesome would it be if Obama came back into the next elections and just said "fuck the rule that I can only get elected twice!" and got away with it just like the third act of a Marvel movie? One can dream...
