To be fair, everyone is a jobber in KH (until they maybe have some moment where they aren't for a few second when the plot demands it). Riku & Mickey fail miserably at saving Aqua from the Realm of Darkness. Axel doesn't succeed any better than Kairi in KHIII, to the point that his keyblade is actually destroyed. Mickey has zero chance against Master Xehanort in DDD. BBS has pretty much everyone on the side of good fail. Sora fails constantly. The only reason he wins most of the time is because these are games where he is the main character and games have boss fights that players will beat to progress in the game, but even then he has some Tru Jobber moments spread through pretty much all of the games he's in, except maybe KH1. Dream Drop Distance is basically Kingdom Hearts: Sora the Jobber Edition as he fails in all of his aims & is almost taken over by the big baddie/darkness
To be fair, everyone is a jobber in KH (until they maybe have some moment where they aren't for a few second when the plot demands it). Riku & Mickey fail miserably at saving Aqua from the Realm of Darkness. Axel doesn't succeed any better than Kairi in KHIII, to the point that his keyblade is actually destroyed. Mickey has zero chance against Master Xehanort in DDD. BBS has pretty much everyone on the side of good fail. Sora fails constantly. The only reason he wins most of the time is because these are games where he is the main character and games have boss fights that players will beat to progress in the game, but even then he has some Tru Jobber moments spread through pretty much all of the games he's in, except maybe KH1. Dream Drop Distance is basically Kingdom Hearts: Sora the Jobber Edition as he fails in all of his aims & is almost taken over by the big baddie/darkness
I laughed so hard when Eraqus was like "Terra, take care of Aqua" and everyone was acting like that was a sound decision when TERRA WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST REASONS WHY THINGS WERE FUCKED IN THE FIRST PLACE
I laughed so hard when Eraqus was like "Terra, take care of Aqua" and everyone was acting like that was a sound decision when TERRA WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST REASONS WHY THINGS WERE FUCKED IN THE FIRST PLACE
I guess that's part of it but it's more likely the case he deliberately wants to ape shounen manga he read growing up like Dragon Ball (he was 13-14 when it started publication). He's been at SE since FF IV so its not like he wasn't worked on or been exposed to games at the company with mildly to substantially better handling of girls/women.
I don't equate defeating a bunch of enemies to being a character that has actual weight and agency within that world (the keyblade can be used to seal worlds to protect them, as much as it is a weapon.) Axel didn't get much to 'do' in III if your idea of being important is winning a fight, but he had some narrative heft in both KH2 and 358/2. Same goes for the BBS crew in their respective game and Aqua in her playable prologue. It's not only about wanting to see Kairi kick ass, though it wouldn't be unwelcome, she's been sidelined narratively since KH2 despite being the de facto heroine of the series and she feels underdeveloped compared to Riku and Sora.
They find out where Sora is and she has the chance to go with Riku but can't for BS reasons. Nomura pretty much made this game to explain her absence in the next games
I guess that's part of it but it's more likely the case he deliberately wants to ape shounen manga he read growing up like Dragon Ball (he was 13-14 when it started publication).
That's what I was getting at. Someone who has only read a particular brand of fiction is gonna be clueless when it comes to stuff outside of that sphere.
When I did ny Creative Writing degree, you could tell what fiction people limited themselves to just by reading their work. Someone who only reads Conan stories is gonna struggle when they're tasked with writing contemporary romance XD
Admittedly, I never thought it was good, but having watched some of these cutscenes after that one linked up there, it's way worse than I thought it would be. I read an abridged history of just how convoluted everything had become but to be this blatantly shitty to your main characters, constantly damseling them and forcing them into capability only as it relates to some dude (fuck off Sora) is just... eugh.
This article by Coates on Crash sums up my feelings about Kingdom Hearts pretty well:
Exactly this, Kairi gets treated like shit but the main reason I fell off kingdom hearts is because no one is a person? It's all about friendship and light but we don't know shit about these characters. Sora doesn't like anything, he and the rest of the cast have no interest besides what ice cream.he never mentions his mom. The BBS kids as far as I remember might as well didn't exist before becoming students. Maybe I just have high expectations for kingdom hearts character writing but it's really bad when you have 3 sets of protags that all have nothing to say.
Not saying there isn't a sexist element to it as well but KH has an issue where characters are incompetent to the point of it not being believable in the context of the what we see the characters being capable of just because the story mandates that the good guys have to suddenly lose even though they were, like, shooting meteors out of their keyblades and exploding heartless & nobodies in the hundreds & flying all over the battlefield not 2 minutes ago.
Kairi should have a bigger role & kick ass (on her own) at this point and I'm not gonna defend Nomura for not giving her her due.
Everything with Kingdom Hearts and Nomura's treatment of Kairi is eternal pain. I hate that I always have hope that, well, maybe next time it will be different, even though I should know better.
I was sooooooo nervous about how Tifa and Aerith were going to be treated in the Remake on so many levels, lol -- from characterization to relationships to character design. Whilst there were some irritating moments with poor Tifa suddenly becoming shockingly incompetent in cutscenes (Tifa Fucking Lockhart needing to be saved by LESLIE was the worst), I was pretty happy overall. Aerith getting her OG personality back and Tifa/Aerith being BFFs* was great.
I was sooooooo nervous about how Tifa and Aerith were going to be treated in the Remake on so many levels, lol -- from characterization to relationships to character design. Whilst there were some irritating moments with poor Tifa suddenly becoming shockingly incompetent in cutscenes (Tifa Fucking Lockhart needing to be saved by LESLIE was the worst), I was pretty happy overall. Aerith getting her OG personality back and Tifa/Aerith being BFFs* was great.
I think it's more likely there's a more active initiative by the overall team to pay attention to discourse and temperaments about their unicorn project. Toriyama was only responsible for Wall Market iirc.
And it's not like VIIr still wasn't annoying about this stuff at times. 👀
I don't equate defeating a bunch of enemies to being a character that has actual weight and agency within that world (the keyblade can be used to seal worlds to protect them, as much as it is a weapon.)
I get that but its just that when you build the big game of KH3 has the Second Keyblade War & a big battle between light and darkness.
You sorta set expectations of fighting and if Nomura big draws are anime and shonen you can't help but have battle performance be a big factor, so when you have Aqua who is a master and stronger then everyone bar Sora, Riku and Roxas (Aqua at least equal so far to Micky) and either has to be saved, gets beat or in the DLC take a back seat to Axel in that battle at the end with the rest behind.
I think it's more likely there's a more active initiative by the overall team to pay attention to discourse and temperaments about their unicorn project. Toriyama was only responsible for Wall Market iirc.
And it's not like VIIr still wasn't annoying about this stuff at times. 👀
Toriyama had to have input for more than just Wall Market. He's credited as co-director (scenario design). Nomura is director & concept design while Hamaguchi is co-director (game design/programming).
Didn't imply the game is perfect in that regard, because it's not.
Toriyama had to have input for more than just Wall Market. He's credited as co-director (scenario design). Nomura is director & concept design while Hamaguchi is co-director (game design/programming).
Didn't imply the game is perfect in that regard, because it's not.
VIIIR reads like Toriyama wrote the scenario & characters again just like XIII but then a more competent writer came in and fixed the atrocious dialogue in Toriyama's rough draft.
I get that but its just that when you build the big game of KH3 has the Second Keyblade War & a big battle between light and darkness.
You sorta set expectations of fighting and if Nomura big draws are anime and shonen you can't help but have battle performance be a big factor, so when you have Aqua who is a master and stronger then everyone bar Sora, Riku and Roxas (Aqua at least equal so far to Micky) and either has to be saved, gets beat or in the DLC take a back seat to Axel in that battle at the end with the rest behind.
I want both for Kairi. I consider Riku as the bar in terms of having flashy fights and narrative importance that ideally I'd like Kairi to meet. Most fall short of him tbh, but hell is she even on Donald Duck's level? :/ With the 358+BBS trios main conflicts being resolved and they're all reunited now, I fear they'll reduce Aqua and Xion's roles from now on. So I guess I'm more critical that they once again decided to do nothing with Kairi story-wise except damsel her, because I saw this as their chance to finally bring her fully into a role of her own. She doesn't have to be the strongest in the room to be important but it's like her keyblade is almost a decoration in either way it can be used, she's not established as peace-keeper nor ass-kicker. We're only here to suffer
VIIIR reads like Toriyama wrote the scenario & characters again just like XIII but then a more competent writer came in and fixed the atrocious dialogue in Toriyama's rough draft.
I don't get people's obsession with the RE8 woman but there's another thread about her and a lot of the posts are like ehhhh really? From what I saw at least.
I was sooooooo nervous about how Tifa and Aerith were going to be treated in the Remake on so many levels, lol -- from characterization to relationships to character design. Whilst there were some irritating moments with poor Tifa suddenly becoming shockingly incompetent in cutscenes (Tifa Fucking Lockhart needing to be saved by LESLIE was the worst), I was pretty happy overall. Aerith getting her OG personality back and Tifa/Aerith being BFFs* was great.
I guess that's part of it but it's more likely the case he deliberately wants to ape shounen manga he read growing up like Dragon Ball (he was 13-14 when it started publication). He's been at SE since FF IV so its not like he wasn't worked on or been exposed to games at the company with mildly to substantially better handling of girls/women.
I am curious what happened too because 4 / 5 / 6 all saw women characters in more lead roles and generally had more agency than anything from 7 onwards, and I can only imagine the reason for that walk back is due, in no small part, to Nomura.
Yeah, Nojima was heavily involved in the remake? He did a lot of interviews talking about the characters' interactions with each other and building upon relationships from the original so while I think it's all collaborative and not just the result of one single person, he's the one 'directing' the ship in terms of the quality of the overall writing.
I also personally think KH's quality dropped a lot once he stopped being the scenario writer after KH2. Kairi wasn't 'great' in KH1/2 but she also had personality (she was more spunky in the earlier games) and potential when she did show up. After years of waiting for Kairi to fight along Sora and Riku in KH3, we get...nothing. She feels like even more of a generic love interest than ever before. I think her feeling insecure about her abilities and feeling left behind by Sora and Riku could be interesting but I don't trust Nomura to do anything with it plus the writing for it isn't even consistent.
Riku basically acting like Kairi should stay behind doesn't work when Riku is the same guy who gave her a keyblade out of nowhere and let her start fighting in TWTNW despite having literally zero training. It ultimately feels contrived.
If they were really interested in developing Kairi, she would've gotten her own game (a real one) but instead they keep making up contrived reasons to bench her even though Riku and Sora didn't train officially until we were like 5/6 games into the series lol. I feel like if they had a real investment in Kairi, they would've been considerate enough to ask Hayden Panettiere to reprise the role but she said they never even asked her to return which kind of sucks. I didn't release how much Hayden's voice added to the role until she was gone. Alyson Stoner's Kairi just...reinforces how bland and generic the character is.
I am curious what happened too because 4 / 5 / 6 all saw women characters in more lead roles and generally had more agency than anything from 7 onwards, and I can only imagine the reason for that walk back is due, in no small part, to Nomura.
This is...a weird take to me when there's characters like Rosa in IV whose entire character seems to basically revolve around how much she loves Cecil and wants to support him. I like Rydia but she's a kid who comes back as a sexualized adult as well. None of the games' are perfect with their handling of women but one thing I would not say about any game post VI is that the female characters have less agency (outside of maybe Luna in XV). Like I honestly can't see how characters like Tifa, Aerith, Rinoa, Garnet, Yuna, Ashe, or even Lightning who I'm not even a fan of have less agency when some of them are the literal driving forces of the games they are in. Like honestly this is one of the most bizarre things I've ever read on here.
Plus Nomura has only been (at least to my knowledge) heavily involved with the writing of two FF games: VII and VIII (and even with VIII, it was more like helping to build some of the characters' personalities). I have my problems with Nomura but this feels like blaming for stuff he literally isn't even responsible for.
This talk of Kairi has helped me put into words something I've been feeling about how female characters are written especially in shonen series (and probably boys-media in general, but it's where I've most noticed this)
When a male characters does something, the expectation is that they succeed and we judge them based on that. The plucky Shonen hero has to achieve some kind of victory against the villain, either by physically beating him and/or changing his ways. At worst the hero will lose, but then resolve to get stronger; this is just a setback and before long they start winning again.
When a female character does something, they seem to be valued more for the attempt. Whether or not they succeed or fail, they're praised for even trying. Their moments aren't in succeeding, they're in standing next to the boys at all. They find the resolve to fight that is just inherent in male characters.
The example that twigged this to me was Vinland Saga, one of my all-time favourite manga series. Thorfinn (the main character and former vengeance crazed child assassin now turned rigid advocate of pacifism) is forced to engage in a duel to the death as part of a deal he made to end a bloody conflict, and his love interest Gudrid steps in to prevent Thorfinn from being forced to kill someone. She starts fruitlessly punching his opponent while screaming that Thorfinn just wants to stop being dragged into violent conflicts, and eventually he backs off out of respect for Gudrid for standing up to him.
I think this is a sweet moment but it got me thinking that a male character would never be put in Gudrid's position where their only salvation came from their opponent telling them they had spunk. A younger kid character stepping up to try and protect someone which impresses the villain, sure definitely, but an adult man?
I do love Vinland Saga a lot and it's a bit easier to digest given the surrounding context of the story (some cliffnotes being that everyone in the main party other than Thorfinn and another character are basically just sailors or otherwise non-combatants and the only other person on the boat who knows how to fight is basically The Boss from Metal Gear Solid 3 in 11th century England, and the story is explicitly about the inherent immorality of violence), but I wanted to throw it out there to see what people thought. Is this actually a long running thing I'm only noticing now or am I misguided?
This is...a weird take to me when there's characters like Rosa in IV whose entire character seems to basically revolve around how much she loves Cecil and wants to support him. I like Rydia but she's a kid who comes back as a sexualized adult as well. None of the games' are perfect with their handling of women but one thing I would not say about any game post VI is that the female characters have less agency (outside of maybe Luna in XV). Like I honestly can't see how characters like Tifa, Aerith, Rinoa, Garnet, Yuna, Ashe, or even Lightning who I'm not even a fan of have less agency when some of them are the literal driving forces of the games they are in. Like honestly this is one of the most bizarre things I've ever read on here.
Plus Nomura has only been (at least to my knowledge) heavily involved with the writing of two FF games: VII and VIII (and even with VIII, it was more like helping to build some of the characters' personalities). I have my problems with Nomura but this feels like blaming for stuff he literally isn't even responsible for.
I'm of the opinion that Tifa and Aerith in the original FFVII largely exist to serve as Cloud's story beats. Their agency only extends as far as their relevance to his story and no farther. I didn't play IX but I see Garnet mentioned by writers as lacking agency and being damseled frequently. Rinoa and the whole of FFVIII is just a hot mess that while I remember playing, I simultaneously remember almost nothing about, though again, all the women in that game also seem to exist in a nexus around Squall (alliterative irony maybe?). I dropped off halfway through ten, belts for clothing became too grating (I hate basically all of the FFX cast - the writing in X is just awful all around). FFXII was probably the best written "recent" mainline Final Fantasy (excluding maybe FFXIV at its higher points), in my opinion - though having an incompetent dipshit as the protagonist instead of Ashe was awful. I dropped off on XIII and its sequels as well, the writing just being generally awful regardless of who the characters were. Again, that thing about there being no people in it - it's sort of hard for me to even talk about the "character" of characters in FFXIII, because they're just that badly written. I didn't play FFXV, so can't comment on that one.
I am curious what happened too because 4 / 5 / 6 all saw women characters in more lead roles and generally had more agency than anything from 7 onwards, and I can only imagine the reason for that walk back is due, in no small part, to Nomura.
...did you play Final Fantasy IV, because the lead woman is essentially a flat prop with no real personality that exists basically solely to create drama between Cecil and Kaine.
...did you play Final Fantasy IV, because the lead woman is essentially a flat prop with no real personality that exists basically solely to create drama between Cecil and Kaine.
Yes, and the more I think about it the more I think it was a mistake to mention. I'd say I like the writing but the more I think about the plot the more I just remember how generic the entire thing was. FFV had Faris and VI had Terra, which are my favorite characters in the mainline Final Fantasy series. As celes mentions, I like Rydia as a character but she's sexualized a disgusting amount, and Rosa's pretty forgettable.
Yes, and the more I think about it the more I think it was a mistake to mention. I'd say I like the writing but the more I think about the plot the more I just remember how generic the entire thing was. FFV had Faris and VI had Terra, which are my favorite characters in the mainline Final Fantasy series.
I know the characters in VI were all devised by different members of staff: Soraya Saga wrote Edgar and Sabin, for example, while Nomura was responsible for Setzer and teen edgelord favourite Shadow.
I know the characters in VI were all devised by different members of staff: Soraya Saga wrote Edgar and Sabin, for example, while Nomura was responsible for Setzer and teen edgelord favourite Shadow.
I hope Destruction AllStars gets a decent fanbase cause all the characters are so cute and I love their designs! Muna, Harmony, Genesis, Twinkle-R!ot, and Ratu are my favorites but everyone else looks cool and distinct too!
...did you play Final Fantasy IV, because the lead woman is essentially a flat prop with no real personality that exists basically solely to create drama between Cecil and Kaine.
Ehhh, you're not wrong, and I'm not exactly a fan of Rosa, but this was 1991, I'd be hard-pressed to name more than half a dozen JRPG characters with any kind of personality at all, let alone women... :P
Ehhh, you're not wrong, and I'm not exactly a fan of Rosa, but this was 1991, I'd be hard-pressed to name more than half a dozen JRPG characters with any kind of personality at all, let alone women... :P
I'd respond by saying Tactics Ogre, but Tactics Ogre came out in 1995. XD
edit: it does kinda seem like a lot of the best writing from jRPGS came around the mid-90s though. Earthbound / Final Fantasy V / Final Fantasy VI / Tactics Ogre / Ogre Battle March of the Black Queen / Terranigma / Lufia II / Mystic Ark / Robotrek / Romancing SaGa
At the same time though, there were also only about 100 total jRPGs released during the mid-90s.
I was sooooooo nervous about how Tifa and Aerith were going to be treated in the Remake on so many levels, lol -- from characterization to relationships to character design. Whilst there were some irritating moments with poor Tifa suddenly becoming shockingly incompetent in cutscenes (Tifa Fucking Lockhart needing to be saved by LESLIE was the worst), I was pretty happy overall. Aerith getting her OG personality back and Tifa/Aerith being BFFs* was great.
I was so nervous too... and it was worse than I expected, sadly. Their characterization was a shitshow (especially Tifa) and felt like they turned the harem stuff up to 10. The only good thing is that Aerith was Aerith and not that Compilation nonsense of a character.
Same as NuWall Market... I want to think that shit was just devs being tonedeaf.
I'd respond by saying Tactics Ogre, but Tactics Ogre came out in 1995. XD
edit: it does kinda seem like a lot of the best writing from jRPGS came around the mid-90s though. Earthbound / Final Fantasy V / Final Fantasy VI / Tactics Ogre / Ogre Battle March of the Black Queen / Terranigma / Lufia II / Mystic Ark / Robotrek / Romancing SaGa
At the same time though, there were also only about 100 total jRPGs released during the mid-90s.
I was so nervous too... and it was worse than I expected, sadly. Their characterization was a shitshow (especially Tifa) and felt like they turned the harem stuff up to 10. The only good thing is that Aerith was Aerith and not that Compilation nonsense of a character.
Yeah, FFVII Remake really, REALLY assumes the player is a straight, male teenager and that the only way to make them care for a female character is to present them as someone to fall in love with.
Just started Trails of Cold Steel and...well y'all who played know the silliness in store :V But man why do the models (body) of the girls and ladies feel so...off?
Still early in the game doing the first combat area (I refuse to call this a dungeon :V)
Even with using the Eng. dub, my mind can deign the kind of voice and attitude the JP voices would sound like
I just wasn't considering Genesis games but I knew she'd come up so. :P
I do think the politics and motivations of Catiua in Tactics Ogre are fascinating though. It's really rare to see a character's familial connections rub up against their political affiliation quite so much.
While there are some questionable design choices in regards to her outfit, I'd argue Lightning is one of the better female characters in the Final Fantasy series. No, she's not just Female Cloud ™. The similarities are superficial at best. I think she's a way more nuanced character than people give her credit for. She's strong, but not "look stronk female!1!!". Female characters that are portrayed as strong tend to also be objectified and/or damseled at some point to undermine their strength and make them less intimidating to insecure men. Not so with Lightning. Nor does she fall into the trope of being overly emotional for no good reason. Nor is she an "ice queen" stereotype either. Her main driving force is her sister, and she's got an entire chapter where she's partnered up with Fang, another female character. She doesn't exist as character development fodder for a male character, nor does she have a love interest (or needs one to function). That is not to say I think she is without flaws, but she's certainly leagues above a great deal of the female characters that came before her. The less we talk about her portrayal in Lightning Returns the better though.
Lightning as a concept is pretty good, the writing in 13 is just dogshit lmao. Same with most of FFXIII tbh. then the sequels happened.........that bit where Noel and Serah simultaneously yell something about saving the future together made my soul vacate my body from cringe
Lightning as a concept is pretty good, the writing in 13 is just dogshit lmao. Same with most of FFXIII tbh. then the sequels happened.........that bit where Noel and Serah simultaneously yell something about saving the future together made my soul vacate my body from cringe
This topic is funny because I picked back up the trails series after having Trails in the Sky FC on my backlog since it first came out on PSP in english. I'm not too far into the first cold steel, think I'm on chapter 3 or 4, but going from Sky to Cold Steel really shows you how much JRPGs have kind of changed. I don't think sky is perfect, Joshua and Estelle's relationship is still on kinda questionable grounds, and Olivier can be annoyingly creepy at times (I guess at least he's equal opportunities with his creepiness, much to Joshua's disdain). However it's clear the character direction and overall target audience is different. The female characters in the Sky series are overall very likable and feel like actual people with their own personalities and motivations. Then you get onto Cold Steel and you just hit all the modern day anime tropes a long with the feeling the world revolves around the MC. Even within in the first two hours you have the MC and the heroine getting into a "situation" where he saves her but it looks like he's being a creep so she gets mad while some upperclass girl is creeping and getting all excited over how cute all the new school girls are. The game also has it's own incest plotline, with the MC's sister even having a crush on him.
I mean I can get over it and still enjoy these kinda JRPGs to a degree, but overall it's just kind of sad the direction they've taken.
We've talked about this before in the thread but Trails of Cold Steel has a lot of problems with depicting lesbians as being these gross predatory people, and one of them is even a straight up rapist. The game plays it up for laughs like "haha its funny because a girl raped another one haha. Oh those lesbians."
We've talked about this before in the thread but Trails of Cold Steel has a lot of problems with depicting lesbians as being these gross predatory people, and one of them is even a straight up rapist. The game plays it up for laughs like "haha its funny because a girl raped another one haha. Oh those lesbians."
We've talked about this before in the thread but Trails of Cold Steel has a lot of problems with depicting lesbians as being these gross predatory people, and one of them is even a straight up rapist. The game plays it up for laughs like "haha its funny because a girl raped another one haha. Oh those lesbians."
