Thats it, but don't hope for understanding.
Most gamers seem to live in a bubble of the gaming past.
I also think that this could leave the possibility for a higher pricing of the new consoles if the old consoles are still supported down the road.
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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread - MY ANACONDA DON'T WANT NONE
- Thread starter Phoenix Splash
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Thats it, but don't hope for understanding.
Most gamers seem to live in a bubble of the gaming past.
I also think that this could leave the possibility for a higher pricing of the new consoles if the old consoles are still supported down the road.
It's like he is trying to blame Sony for Navi due to a flimsy rumor and saying Sony is the one holding next gen back ;) .oh wait that was you few pages back but u see it now cause he is on the other side of fence .you know pot and kettle thing ,right ?
The discussion on price is very premature in this thread .they won't release price untill summer 2020. Too soon to start the non ending debate . Based on the the specs if we get them this summer we could make more educated guess .
You've mentioned how APU changes impact other parts of the system. But the PS4 APU was estimated at costing $100 all up...
Not really getting your point ?
My post was to show him you just can't add the whole $100 to the APU .
There are other things to think of so the $100 might not give you the 25% over the other system .
That is not accounting for stuff like if both systems already clock high to begin with which can really change things .
Well, a $250 APU in your example would probably need $50 more worth of memory bandwidth, $15 to 25 more for the additional PCB complexity, an extra $40 to $60 more for cooling and an increase in shipping and handling costs because of the large chassis and thus physical box size.
The APU and system design affects far more than just the price of any one discrete component.
Personally, I think a 25% flops advantage within $100 price differential is definitely possible, but your example was not a great one.
If one console designer wants to include additional coprocessors on the die that takes up 25% of the GPU CU area, or if one decides to go with HBM and a chiplet design allowing a higher overall TDP budget to push the GPU clocks... whether Sony or MS is higher isn't important to me.
The easy way to "outspend" sony would be simply to do what we can almost guarantee Sony wouldn't do and that they can afford to do because they have two SKUs.
Lets say for instance that 310mm2 APU costs them $160. And lets say that $160 is for a 60CU APU (which means 4 CUs are disabled) and results in yields of about 80%. So from every wafer only 80% of the chips have at least 60CU working that can be clocked as high as they set out to clock them and no CPU issues. What MS can do here is not disable any CUs in the APU that goes into Anaconda so that APU uses all 64 CU. This will no doubt make the yields tank to maybe like 60%, which in turn means that each usable chip from MS is costing them like $200!!! But there is an out for MS.
They could just take the remaining 40% of chips that have defects or can't be clocked as high as they want them to for Anaconda, then disable like 12/14 of the CU and end up with a 50/52CU GPU and further go onto downclock the APU so they don't have to spend much on cooling and the PSU and make that Lockhart. So basically they are using the same chip on two different SKUs.
We can end up with something like this:
PS5 [email protected] + 60CU GPU @1440Mhz (11TF)
XBA [email protected] + 64CU GPU @ 1500Mhz(12.2TF)
XBL [email protected] + 50CU GPU @ 1100Mhz(7TF)
My anaconda wants raytracing. Thats all.
Your best guess
How many TF you reckon?
Your best guess
It will something less ...Sony isn't going to risk everything on the TF war....because they know Lockhart exist and knoow also that Ms want be the most powerful...
If they go 499 against Anaconda and end up being also less powerful they are marketing wise "fucked" ....also because they conceding following Anaconda...the biggest more important part of the market to Lockhart
Ps5 will be 399 or 449...nothing more....but I'm more on the 399 side
if Sony goes 499(same price as MS) why are you sure MS will be stronger?just cause phil said so? phil also said VR is amazing on xbox 1x. not everything PR says is achievable by engineering team .
Don't worry, even XB1 can do raytracing with a 1.3 tflops GPU.
I'm of the opinion you are wrong. Your reasoning makes no sense besides wanting one to be more powerful than the other for no apparent reason tbh.
Even if anaconda is more 'powerful' at same price, I'm betting it's no more than 10% which will be negligible for any practical comparisons, and ps5 will have something under the hood anaconda doesn't which will make comparisons very interesting.
This is my guess anyhow, which is only as much tales from my ass as everyone else's guess work here :)
I know your example was ilustrative, but that 40% of remaining chips for Lockheart is unrealistic, because among them would be a proportion with defects in the areas that result in a dead chip, as well as chips that won't meet the clockspeed target for Lockheart without pushing voltage beyond a reasonable threshold.
In addition, Lockheart is supposed to be the mass market high volume device, so ending up with more Anaconda dies than Lockheart dies makes Lockheart a little worthless overall.
They'll have to deliberately disable and underclock good Anaconda dies to meet the demand, binning for each product means they're more or less at the mercy of the elements in terms of having any control over which of the two products they manufacture.
If they find themselves in a position later in the gen. where Lockheart is the biggest seller by far, they'll still have to produce full Anaconda dies to feed the demand, instead of being able to fab a much smaller dedicated Lockheart die and benefit from the higher yields.
O no isn't about what I want ..and don't worry my words are also '"tales from my ass" like everyone else's in this moment ahahah....I used the Word "marketing wise fucked" for a reason....if Anaconda at the same price will be 10% more powerful they will sell it as the most powerful next gen console....Sony will can't ...at the same time they will be badly undercutted by the price of Lockhart ......no sorry with one sku against two is too naive engage a power war ..that you don't know if you gonna win expecially if this will make you price your product 100 or more dollars than other product that play the same games ....let's say that we don't agree on this and I save this posts ))
Yes that is obvious.
"besides wanting one to be more powerful than the other for no apparent reason tbh."
and
"ps5 will have something under the hood anaconda doesn't "
I refrain myself on commenting about power / footprints / 7nm and such even though I follow them very closely. One thing is certain as we seen, the TF power is but a small portion of what dictates how a game will look, behave, feel.
What got me more intruigued is what Mark Cerny said about the loading times in Spiderman. Now that opens so much for what kind of tech they implemented on the future Sony console. These next consoles should be analysed with the full APU in mind and not only the gpu part of it. But people must love their TF too much to completly disregard cpu, ram, drive, heat dissipation, footprint, rapid storage memory/tech.
What got me more intruigued is what Mark Cerny said about the loading times in Spiderman. Now that opens so much for what kind of tech they implemented on the future Sony console. These next consoles should be analysed with the full APU in mind and not only the gpu part of it. But people must love their TF too much to completly disregard cpu, ram, drive, heat dissipation, footprint, rapid storage memory/tech.
Its only really recently that everyone focused around TF numbers. I think the new CPU/RAM combo's will play a huge part in how performance is perceived.
Two things I need to address.
1. The jaguars took ~70mm2 on 28nm. On 16nm they took much less space.
2. 64 CUs take up more than 42% of the die on Vega 7. More than 140mm2. I am not sure if they can improve density for Navi from 140mm2 to 95mm2.
See pic for vega 7: It's easy to calculate that the 64 CUs takes up around ~140mm2.
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Don't forget that16nm was where Finfet compac tech was used and it brought joy to everyone cause of its logic density upgrade.
why r we so fixated on resolution. what about fps?what about AI ?what about scene complexity? all those have to give if a 1.3 TF decides to use half of its power for RT. not just resolution.
AI and frame rate are more CPU limited than GPU limited. RT is more GPU limited.
What's funny?
Claybook does Raytracing of SDFs on XB1 at 60fps:
Link to sebbbi's GDC presentation: GPU-based clay simulation and ray-tracing tech in Claybook Sebastian Aaltonen Co-founder of Second Order PDF
He is not technically wrong, check out a game called claybook.
And how exactly do you know that?
Knowing his post history, most likely guessing.
Like you think they will cost the same, I think they won't, we both have our reasons and let's just leave it as that.
I'm curious are we basing TFLOPs guesses on AdoredTVs leaks?
That would mean AMD Flops have become way more efficient.
A 48cu GPU at 150 tdp (including 8gb of gddr6) quite handily beats a 12,7tf GPU (vega 64)
Doesn't really matter whether the consoles have a lower tf count or not, when they perform better than a 12-13tf amd card.
If one believes his leaks to be true.
That would mean AMD Flops have become way more efficient.
A 48cu GPU at 150 tdp (including 8gb of gddr6) quite handily beats a 12,7tf GPU (vega 64)
Doesn't really matter whether the consoles have a lower tf count or not, when they perform better than a 12-13tf amd card.
If one believes his leaks to be true.
Oh, so you know what everyone I've met is paying lol.
€900 is the price or more then a lot of flagship phones, most people don't nothing and if they do it's under £100.
Sounds good but I wonder where Lockhart will be in that list? Maybe 6-8TF at $299 perhaps?
Sounds about right. I think it's targeted to MS fans already locked into the Xbox ecosystem, but can't pay premium for the Anaconda.
I think most sells will come from the latter though, specially during the first year, year and a half.
Same way most PS3 sales were the more expensive 60GB model compared to the 20GB one. (If that info is accurate, which I'm not 100% sure, I just saw someone post something to that effect)
Same thing, all the things that you mention determine the re"solution you can run them at.
I can run incredible complex calculations at 2x2 pixels.
*if* Navi is limited to 64CUs which provides a maximum for both consoles - is there a possiblity that it leaves some die area for RT type cores? I dno't think the performance improvements since PS pro/XB1X are big enough to trade CUs for RT so it would only make sense if it was in addition to CUs
I didn't talked about the people you met!
In general. And at least in germany if you you are going to Pick up a iPhone xs max 512gb ( Depending which contract)you have a one time payment up to 900€.
So of course Not eveyone buys such a phone. But believe me, there are enough people who buys expensive phones.
So are the contracts where you coming from so expensive that they habe such a low one time payment?
Considering CUs are usually disabled for everything but the top end cards, it doesn't seem realistic to except a full 64CUs on either console. Unless anyone knows of a good reason why we can be optimistic this time around?
If its 9TF than its gonna be 400$. Which is little disappointing, but paired with SSD and new CPU will be a good enough jump
And 10-11 TF 500$ Anaconda makes sense
But judging by that poster history its kinda hard to believe him about anything Sony without solid proof
And 10-11 TF 500$ Anaconda makes sense
But judging by that poster history its kinda hard to believe him about anything Sony without solid proof
I dont think they have enough time to go for next gen arch, they will have to use vega if they cant use navi.
Alright, that shit needs to stop.
In no way a 9TF AMD part today is performing the same as a 1080.
VEGA64 which is over 12TFLOPS IS ~1080 performance.
That's actually really what i want and hope. Something in 9-10tf territory, with a push on reconstruction techniques. I want a 400$ maximum console with an heavy mass adoption rate. I want sony and devs to be able to make huge loads of money so they can make big investements in more games and new ip. And i believe 500$ will restrain lots of customers. I really don't care about power or anything. Like you say 9-10tf + ssd + zen2 is already an awesome jump.
Xbox outside of NA is totally non existent, i want ps5 to be lead platform and get as much exclusives as they can get. huge sells => money => games and big investments.
This. I can't stand this anymore, people refering to gpu power outside of the same architecture with only TF.
TF, weither it is nvidia or amd, is exactly the same. A TF is a TF. Period. So many more things to take into accounts to judge a gpu power.
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