Another round of counter-protests? Many took place yesterday. These are some videos from the state media:
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Miami Herald: ‘We are not afraid!’ Cubans take to the streets to demand freedom, food, vaccines
- Thread starter Baron Eyepatch
- Start date
Another round of counter-protests? Many took place yesterday. These are some videos from the state media:
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That's what I've heard. Something more directly organized than that, I suppose. We'll see what happens, but I'm not surprised if the government wants to have a day for itself to reset the narrative.
My grandfather was murdered by Cuban police while my grandmother was pregnant with my father. They were able to leave the island to the states when my father was 6. The Cuban government is a gigantic piece of shit and something has to be done to help the people there.
It's already trying but it's unimpressive thus far. All of the videos are from the ground and with close ups pretty much to avoid showing that not many people showed up. It reminds me of how the US media portrayed Juan Guaido rallies.
At least you're the only one in this thread who went full mask off so I'll applaud you before I tell you to go fuck yourself
Go fuck yourself.
The majority of the exodus happened 40-60 years ago. Many of those exiled are now elderly, or passed away. Even assuming the diaspora is all right-wingers (which is not true), I don't think there is the energy or the numbers left to move back to Cuba and form a far right majority. If Cuba's government fell today, many of the exiles probably wouldn't go back, whether they were right or left wing. My parents, for example, came in the 80s and resigned years ago that they would never move back - "our home and our life is here now".
The people living in Cuba now, especially the younger people in the streets, are the ones with the energy and the years left in them to rebuild.
Yeah that's the tricky part. In my experience those against the government on the island only tend to agree that they want the government to go. However, I've spoken to a diverse array of people that ranged from anarcho-sindicalists to essentially fascists that want to impose a Francoist dictatorship.
This is a great post, and I appreciate you sharing it. It's a complicated issue, but so many knee jerk reactions to pile on.
I don't think the embargo is working - pretty sure I know it's not working. That said, the intention of it, which is to overthrow/force reform the Cuban regime, is still correct. Not sure what the other things that can be done, and military intervention isn't the right answer. I hope those protesting get a chance to be empowered and get better control of their futures.
Biden isn't gonna invade Cuba, we are leaving Afghanistan lol. (I'm legit surprised he left, U.S presence was already at a very low number, I figured he would simply retain the low numbers there) but he seems intent on making it a complete military withdrawal.
Yeah whatever American bias and skullduggery, a regime that prevents democracy and free speech and imprisons political opponents is just bad. I mean should we ignore and minimize people who leave Hong Kong, Tibet, Xinjiang and other locations simply cause they left?
It really shouldn't be hard for people to oppose the U.S embargo and support expansion of human rights in Cuba.
Also I'm very eyebrow raising at people asserting that violence on the part of protestors justifies repression or significant counter action on the government's part. Your showing your ass frankly. When it's BLM or Palestine, your very indignant for rocks or arrests after the fact, but when it's people protesting the Cuban government, y'all go out of the way to make sure they get the best possible doubt.
The rights to civilian protest should apply universally no matter their cause or ideology. And yes the U.S is absolutely utter trash at protests and response by the government.
Yeah whatever American bias and skullduggery, a regime that prevents democracy and free speech and imprisons political opponents is just bad. I mean should we ignore and minimize people who leave Hong Kong, Tibet, Xinjiang and other locations simply cause they left?
It really shouldn't be hard for people to oppose the U.S embargo and support expansion of human rights in Cuba.
Also I'm very eyebrow raising at people asserting that violence on the part of protestors justifies repression or significant counter action on the government's part. Your showing your ass frankly. When it's BLM or Palestine, your very indignant for rocks or arrests after the fact, but when it's people protesting the Cuban government, y'all go out of the way to make sure they get the best possible doubt.
The rights to civilian protest should apply universally no matter their cause or ideology. And yes the U.S is absolutely utter trash at protests and response by the government.
This is me. I was born on the island and came here when I was 2 years old. My father went AWOL from the military to come to the United States. I have large portions of my family that lives in Cuba and have sent plenty of remittances to help them out throughout the years.
I believe the US Embargo of Cuba is absolutely garbage policy that has helped no one much less the Cuba people who suffer more from it than the regime itself. I also hope to god that I will live to see the day where the regime is brought down and a free and democratic Cuba is a reality and not a dream. These two things do not need to be mutually exclusive.
Always sucks seeing people siding with authoritarian regimes because of ideology and throwing out the opinions of the suffering citizens.
Interesting to hear the experiences of people here on the forum too.
Best of luck to the Cuban people, hope things turn out for the better.
Interesting to hear the experiences of people here on the forum too.
Best of luck to the Cuban people, hope things turn out for the better.
Agree with your post especially on this part. The US government should be condemned as hard if not harder than the Cuban regime for its human rights abuses both domestically and abroad. However, that's not going to happen and that gives the regime a rhetorical escape on that front. I am not sure if any of you remember, but in the normalization conferences where Raul and Obama spoke to the press, Obama brought up those human rights abuses and expressed hope for change. What was Raul's response? He asked Obama how many countries fulfill all of the points on the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Obama shrugged and said he didn't know. Raul said zero, and thus he'd be happy to acquiesce to those demands as soon as the US did so as well.
Here is a question I have for the people of this thread. What do you believe are the intentions of the United States in regards to Cuba? Do you believe, once the Cuban government is overthrown, that we will get a nice liberal democracy and everyone will benefit? Or will it be like every other time where the US has fomented a coup against a developing nation? What do you think will create more benefits for the people of Cuba, U.S. backed regime change, or an end to the criminal embargo that has caused incredible hardship for decades? I know that it is easy to get suckered in by lies by the US promising to bring democracy to your country. I myself have fallen for these lies once. I implore you, please learn from history. Please learn from my mistake.
Your truth is going to piss off so many here. Thank you for sharing.
Agreed.
This is a problem with an obvious solution. Cuba's economic situation has been stifled for years due to draconian measures taken against it a half century ago.
End the fucking embargo, destroy GitMo and leave the island alone for fucks sake.
Because that worked so well the last time we did it...
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As an Iraqi that had family murdered by Hussein's government, I wouldn't recommend US intervention.
It is really hard to trust the US has good intentions with any latinamerican country when they sabotage us time and time again, even when there isnt a communist dictatorship.
I wish the best for the people of Cuba but the US shouldnt be involved in this beyond lifting the embargo.
I wish the best for the people of Cuba but the US shouldnt be involved in this beyond lifting the embargo.
Let me get this straight, the United States government has a decent size of responsibility for what is currently going on in Cuba, yet people think American intervention is going to save Cuba?
Yes, after sixty years of an embargo and the sponsoring of hundreds of destabilization efforts which include thousands of lives lost through terrorist attacks, the US government will not intrude in the domestic affairs of the new government once the regime is toppled.
I'm sorry that I believe it was the best solution. I didn't think into account the millions of people and member who will died from a large invasion in Cuba.
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Yeah, the US embargo (not to mention a dozen other things over a century and a half of US–Cuban relations) is bad and should be lifted. The communist government of Cuba is bad, and should be replaced. And the best way to increase the likelihood of that happening is for the US to play this extremely hand-off, including lifting the hand they already have in there in the form of the embargo. The greatest weakness of democracy activists in Cuba is people can just claim they're a CIA front sight unseen and you can't really solidly refute that because of the history. The further the US keeps from this the better.
Other than that one guy who advocated military intervention, I'm not sure why you bring this up. In my post I said I don't support the embargo. It is counterproductive and, clearly, if something hasn't worked in 50+ years it isn't going to work now. The intent of the United States is what it always is, what it thinks benefits its national security and/or economy. That is the same of every country that is able to project power though. The USA is not unique there.
I think deep down both parties know the embargo is bullshit. But they are reluctant to outright remove it because Cuba has a unique role in U.S. politics. Most Cubans who immigrated to the U.S. live in South Florida. And Florida happens to be a key swing state. Obama won Florida in both of his elections. In 2015 he eased Cuba restrictions. The Republicans won Florida in 2016 and 2020. Miami-Dade County went blue, but by not a big enough margin to offset north Florida. I have no doubt this was the Cuba effect. There were other things involved in why the state voted as it did of course, but I'm certain Cuba policy played a huge role in it. Biden did worse than Hillary did. He was Obama's vice president. That was not a coincidence.
This will be less and less of an issue as the older generation of Cuban Americans who came to the U.S. in the 60s, 70s and 80s start dying off. To them, politics is simple. Democrats = Communists. Really that is the extent of it. The reason for that black and white delineation begins with Kennedy and the Bay of Pigs invasion, which they saw as a betrayal. It then just builds from there. But that is a subject that would require its own thread.
As I said earlier, I came here when I was 6. That was in 1980. I'm 47 now. I see a shift starting in my generation and younger where people view things differently. They are open to lifting the embargo and their view of U.S. politics is more than just communist/not communist. But it will still take some time. After all, these younger people are fed this shit by their older parents and grandparents throughout their lives. I've never voted Republican in my life but I know former high school classmates who are hard core Republicans and idolize Reagan.
Still, as long as the Cuban exile community has such a huge say in national politics, I don't envision the embargo just going away. After Biden took over he could have overturned what Trump did and gone back in the direction Obama was taking it. He hasn't. Democrats saw the last 2 Florida results. Biden will be very gun shy here.
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Can I ask, when you say "once the Cuban government is overthrown, that we will get a nice liberal democracy," are you saying you live in Cuba? Or just using the global "we"?
It's a good question but perhaps better suited elsewhere, since not one single person in this thread has actually expressed support for the embargo. That being the case, I find this post a little combative and a degree or two removed from on-topic.
What bothers me most about the Trump policies is that it was clear the Cuban government was getting concerned by the fledgling middle class that was popping up after normalization. The private sector was much more lucrative than the state sector and people were ditching state-sector jobs left and right. When I went right at the end of Obama's presidency, there was a popular magazine called Vistar (just checked and it still exists) that promoted all the new stores, restaurants and cultural events that were popping up. That all went away in a matter of a few years as newly opened commercial channels were cut off.
Cuba didn't kill 3 million people in Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam. Cuba didn't starve over 500,000 Iraqi children in the 90s or murder 1 million Iraqis after 2003. The Cuban government doesn't have over 1/4 of the world's prison population.
There are definitely things wrong with the Cuban government (see: it's treatment of AIDS patients in the 80's/90's) but the only government that should be replaced is the anti democratic US government/constitutional system.
We saw that plainly in the Venezuela threads here. Lots of lecturing of people that had fled that country.
I hate posts like these.
The reason Cuba isn't guilty of those crimes isn't because their government was somehow morally superior to the United States. They didn't because they were never a country strong enough to project power in that fashion. It was essentially a protectorate of the Soviet Union.
If Cuba did have that sort of ability, do you think Fidel Castro would have been a good citizen and not gotten his hands dirty with shit? Based on what we know he did within his own borders? Please. They would be just as bad, or worse. Hell, with what limited resources Cuba had, they intervened in Angola and Fidel still managed to become a mentor to Hugo Chavez.
Any nation that has significant military and economic strength and rises to the level of super power commits atrocities. The Romans did. The British Empire did. Spain did. The Soviets did. And, yeah, so did the U.S.
That doesn't mean I'm going to hand wave away the Castro regime's crimes with a statement like "there are definitely things wrong with the Cuban government".
I'm not convinced that it's as simple as "embargo good, Obama/Biden bad", or that Cuban voters are dominated by this single issue.
I know for a fact that when Obama opened relations, there were important improvements felt by the community. You could travel directly to Cuba and see relatives, rather than book indirect flights through other countries. You could send money or goods over to family with less trouble. For people with family still in Cuba (like mine), there was at least a little hope that they were able to start little businesses and work. Even conservative Cubans were noticing that hey, easing restrictions is helping.
Alongside of that, though, there are Trumpers in the Cuban diaspora, as obviously seen from voting results, but their support for Trump wasn't just about the embargo (which was never a pillar of his platform, as far as I remember). They support the general strongman mayhem, the racism and anti-immigration garbage, not unlike most Trumpers you know. This is not every Cuban in the US, but I have to say that every time this topic comes up on Era.
I really can't explain to you why people would rather vote for Trump than help their families. The embargo comes off like a senseless grudge at this point. Or a sort of gambler's fallacy - "the next decade will definitely be the one where the embargo finally topples everything". But they'll be too old or dead to see it, and people growing up in Cuba now have to live with this shit - I think we're already there.
For the older generation, there is no doubt a revenge element to the embargo. Like they feel "something" is being done to Cuba and not letting them get away with it. Of course, the people being hurt aren't government officials. But it is an emotional issue. Logic doesn't always come into play.
Great points. At least in my family there are a number of people who say the embargo doesn't exist or doesn't do anything and that the real issue for underdevelopment is the internal blockade. So they voted Trump because he expanded the blockade that they claim doesn't exist and doesn't do anything. So I point that out and say, then let's lift the blockade since it doesn't do anything. Their response is usually that even if it does exist (which it doesn't), then nothing will change because all the new goods and services will go to the Communists and they'll run away with them. Then I say, that's good then because the Communists ran away, right? Then they tell me to shut up.
I'll never know if it's cognitive dissonance or they are denying a truth they understand themselves.
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The Cubans in my circle mostly immigrated here within the last 10 years. Most of their friends and family are still in Cuba, and they talk daily. The oldest generation actually includes someone who participated in the revolution, and he was the most sympathetic towards the regime, not to say he necessarily 'supported' it but the others kind of suspect he had a soft spot for it. The others range from teenagers to 50s in age and all have conflicting feelings about what approach they want the U.S. to take. I've seen them change their mind from month to month as conditions change on the island. Sometimes things get really bad or some action takes place and they say this is the time for the U.S. to apply pressure. Sometimes things settle down and there's just a long period of poor conditions and they say the U.S. may as well lift all the sanctions so things can at least improve somewhat.
The motivation is entirely their empathy for those still living on the island. They know it would be nearly impossible to get everyone they care about out of the country, and even getting a few people out could take over a decade. The only other option is to change conditions on the island somehow. And while ending sanctions and the embargo would improve economic conditions, it's likely it would also further enrich and empower the regime. They worry that giving the government such a concession would result in even more censorship and oppression. At least, it wouldn't end the oppression currently taking place, which was more offensive to them than the poverty even while they lived there.
The motivation is entirely their empathy for those still living on the island. They know it would be nearly impossible to get everyone they care about out of the country, and even getting a few people out could take over a decade. The only other option is to change conditions on the island somehow. And while ending sanctions and the embargo would improve economic conditions, it's likely it would also further enrich and empower the regime. They worry that giving the government such a concession would result in even more censorship and oppression. At least, it wouldn't end the oppression currently taking place, which was more offensive to them than the poverty even while they lived there.
I mean, yeah the US constitution should absolutely be replaced, but that's not really a defense of Cuba, and the idea that the US is the only government worthy o being replaced is outright hilarious in a world with Saudi Arabia and the PRC and a hundred others. The number of governments that shouldn't be replaced is like a dozen. More total people would absolutely be benefitted by reform in the US than anywhere else because the US is big and powerful, but using that as a fig leaf to cover up the interests people in other countries have in reforming their own governments is silly.
User Banned (Permanent): Hostility, dismissing dictatorships, thread derail, and speaking over members of Cuban descent over multiple posts.
this is literally the dumbest fucking case of ACTUAL "whataboutism" ive seen on this increasingly deranged US-propagandized site and it will be glossed over
we have an open call for invasion in the thread, tacit support of continuing (one of many) starvation embargoes for the purpose of "regime" change by the most actually authoritarian regime in the world (hint: it aint Cuba or North Korea lmao), apologism for the country respnsible for exporting more death, poverty, misery, and perennial destruction than any in history (hey remember that time in the 70's when the US govt infected the Cuban livestock supply and forced a mass slaughter of the island's swine? or chemically carpeted southeast asia resulting in birth defects to this day?), but yeah, a country with less people than fucking Ohio is just waiting to turn its commie bloodthirst out on the world if given the opportunity, but youll never see a "banned for racism" tag for this
and when those with an actual interest in nuance are decried with any number of incoherent screams of "ultras", "anarchists", "tankies" labels, all that's left is the thundering silent disinterest of those same detractors when their own ostensibly "free" country jails and openly murders people for protesting police brutality, oil companies who do more damage than any country south of the rio grande could dream of, or simply suggest that maybe the people in the richest country in both past and current history by unimaginable proportions shouldnt have to be in debt for the rest of their lives for riding an ambulance, except for a "damn that sucks, anyway THIS OTHER COUNTRY'S GOVERNMENT IS SOOOO EVIL AMIRITE??". Disgusting. Moronic. Shameful.
I constantly see people on this site make accusations of political repression, genocide, police states of countries and their people who they have no interest in beyond being on the "right" side of the (likely state-targeted) social media trend of the day, but pointing out the materially consequential hypocrisy of this ideology and "analysis" that leads nowhere but death and stupidity is labelled "whataboutism" and results in literal silencing
if someone's anecdotal evidence of cuban exiles is weaponized here, it's just another piece of evidence for "regime change"; take the word of people living there, and it's "brainwashed", "tankie", "propaganda" etc. etc. We have elected officials of both US parties, people and places that we ACTUALLY have a material connection to who are ostensibly in the interest of bettering the lives of people here AND abroad in places like Cuba, beating their chest with this imperialist bullshit to spring up nationalist fervor for their electoral campaign warchests... and nothing. quelle surprise.
this site is a fucking clown show
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I really hate this excuse. All the crimes of our government are handwaved away by saying "anybody with similar power would do it". Of course, the next line is usually, "and that is why we need to continue doing it, because if any other country was in our position, they would be doing even worse!". Classic imperialist apologia. As for Angola, that really doesn't help your case at all. If you know anything about that situation, you would know that Cuba fought against the racist apartheid system, which at the time was being backed by the United States. Many people, including Nelson Mandela, believe that assistance was essential in ending apartheid. And what did they ask in return? Perhaps they took the resources of Angola in return for the assistance? No, they did not. We can speak about hypotheticals all we like, but in reality Cuba and America has had very different, practically opposite approaches to foreign policy. The Cuban government is not a danger to the world. The United States government is.
But the Cuban government is a danger to its own people. They're violating Human Rights, how can you not see that?
keep that same energy in a place you actually have a standing in
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Here's a nice video of protests in front of the Capitol. I think it's supposed to be from today because it says it was livestreamed 5 hours ago, but for some reason the date in the title is yesterday's, so I'm not positive whether it's from yesterday or today. This seems to be different from the video taken in front of the Capitol yesterday.
It's mostly peaceful, towards the end there's a little shoving, and a couple people seem to be arrested.
It's mostly peaceful, towards the end there's a little shoving, and a couple people seem to be arrested.
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Oh, yeah, it is often a clown show alright.
This thread is about Cuba.
I am not being an apologist for the U.S. I don't know where you get that from my posts. I have said exactly the opposite. But whenever an international issue with another country comes up, there is always a post along the lines "but the U.S. is the worst." And it always becomes about that. There are innumerable threads that have been created on this site and will continue to be created where the U.S. is rightly criticized.
Why does this one have to be about that as well? Why do the crimes the U.S. has committed mean people can't wish for a different government in Cuba. And by wishing for a different government, I don't mean as a direct result of U.S. intervention. Because again, I saw one post advocating for military intervention and almost everyone saying (including myself), saying that the embargo should go.
More like ignored by so many here while they continue to post their own viewpoint.
So did you not catch the post of the user you're replying to, where they said:
Or are you just being selective about the anecdotal evidence from Cuban exiles you're accepting?
because choosing to express these idea from your position can be nothing but the inertia of forces you have no control over in the service of powers that benefit from your assumption of innocence
Whew. This post sure is something.
This is a thread about Cuba, and people from Cuba are the one's you're yelling at. If you want to yell about US intervention historically, create a new thread.
yes I am being selective about a reality that is gleefuly ignored in favor of idealistic fantasy when anyone here pretends they care about the Cuban people and suggests that its greatest threat is its own government from behind a keyboard.
Cuba will be better when the US is out of its hair, regardless of its own government, but that will never be the case while sentiments like this are doing the work of the US for it
Are you saying that as a Cuban immigrant with family still on the island, I am "pretending to care about the Cuban people?"
Just where the fuck do you get off?
your identity is not a stand in for reality, that's not what politics is