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Bloomberg: Star Wars is Struggling to Win Over the Next Generation of Kids
- Thread starter Deleted member 51691
- Start date
This is the problem when your sequel trilogy and spin offs rely too much on nostalgia factor from 30-40 years ago.
The prequel trilogy feels more like Star Wars because it is, well, a war among the stars. As all good sequels do, the prequel trilogy expands upon the themes and concepts of the original trilogy with a larger conflict, more Jedi, more lightsaber battles, more space battles and more worldbuilding in a much expanded galaxy.
In contrast, the sequel trilogy feels small and honestly kinda redundant. The story it's telling, Star Wars already told once before and better. It doesn't expand upon anything or introduce any new ideas, just uses nostalgia as bait before leaving us with a sour taste when it kills off the characters we came to see.
Obviously we can't pass judgment on the whole trilogy until the end of the year, but the sequel trilogy thus far is just a whole lot of wasted potential. At least to me, anyway.
I love the prequel trilogy despite its flaws because it was ambitious and crazy and I can appreciate what it was trying to do. In contrast, I find the sequel trilogy less appealing despite how pretty it is because what it's trying to do has been done better before.
Kvothe doesn't count because he's an unreliable narrator. You can guarantee everything he's telling you is a load of crap to make himself sound cooler than he actually was. Bast even points out on several occasions that Kvothe is either exaggerating or outright lying.
I do agree about Kirito, though. All those isekai protagonists are the same and they're not the only ones, either. Anyone who tries telling you that fictional men can't have those flaws is trying to sell you something.
The opposite can be a problem too, when you start changing things. Star Wars is Star Wars. Either you like it or you don't.
I don't want to go to a McDonalds and find out they're serving pasta instead of a Big Mac and fries. I'm expecting something when I go there.
Franchises have their formula and once you get to like part freaking 7/8/9 you're going likely be retreading things. And if you're not that's not necessarily a great thing either. I don't want to see a Rocky movie where he takes up figure skating or something.
Yes, of course it is stupid, as are most of these conversations.
Here's a fact for you, you seem to love those: No matter what Episode 9 does at the BO, in 2020 Black Widow and something called The Eternals is releasing. SW is not.
In 2021, something called Shang Chi is releasing, along with Dr. Strange and Thor. SW is not.
Disney is cool with SW missing box office for 2 years. Marvel, not so much.
SW is currently the Wizards version of Jordan. Still Jordan but not quite the Bulls version we all loved. 🙂
If all this is true, I imagine a lot of it has to do with Star Wars just having more competition today.
As far as event-based Blockbusters or sci-fi/fantasy movies went, in 1979 Star Wars stood as a monolith. There was nothing quite like it presented in that way through the late 70's and early 80's. It pretty much invented the current era of Blockbuster movies. There was no MCU back then and there weren't multiple Blockbuster fantasy movies coming out every year. Today, in the eyes of a kid who wasn't even born yet when Revenge of the Sith came out, I imagine Star Wars doesn't stand out quite as much.
And I could agree with people saying the sequel trilogy doesn't introduce as much new material as the prequels or go for kids as much as the prequels did. The prequels actually tried to expand the franchise and aggressively tried to get kids and nerds wrapped up in the lore. It largely succeeded with a lot of people, no matter what you wanna way about the main movies themselves. I still think the sequel moves are good, but a lot of it is in the direct context of movies that came out 40 years ago. The prequels didn't rely on the original trilogy nearly as much.
I guess it's also worth asking: how much are kids and people in general even interested in space operas these days?
As far as event-based Blockbusters or sci-fi/fantasy movies went, in 1979 Star Wars stood as a monolith. There was nothing quite like it presented in that way through the late 70's and early 80's. It pretty much invented the current era of Blockbuster movies. There was no MCU back then and there weren't multiple Blockbuster fantasy movies coming out every year. Today, in the eyes of a kid who wasn't even born yet when Revenge of the Sith came out, I imagine Star Wars doesn't stand out quite as much.
And I could agree with people saying the sequel trilogy doesn't introduce as much new material as the prequels or go for kids as much as the prequels did. The prequels actually tried to expand the franchise and aggressively tried to get kids and nerds wrapped up in the lore. It largely succeeded with a lot of people, no matter what you wanna way about the main movies themselves. I still think the sequel moves are good, but a lot of it is in the direct context of movies that came out 40 years ago. The prequels didn't rely on the original trilogy nearly as much.
I guess it's also worth asking: how much are kids and people in general even interested in space operas these days?
Your analogy doesn't really work because the current SW movies are making more money side by side than the prequels were 10-15 years ago. So they've increased in popularity in the last 10-15 years.
It would be more like Jordan still winning championships on the Wizards or at least making the Finals and being an MVP candidate and his scoring average actually going up from the 2nd 3-peat.
And really, SW is really the only distinctly MOVIE franchise. It's not leaning on 70 years of published back catalog of material to cherry pick from like Marvel does, it's not a book series like Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings or even Jurassic Park ... yes that was book first.
All of those IP rely on test running things on people first and then being adapted to film. They're adapting existing work basically to film and then being able to add things, but that is a much easier job.
Star Wars is the only one that's purely a cinematic franchise that's been doing it for 40 years now. There's nothing to scoff at there.
Explain to me how Ant-man made more money at the box office than beloved 40 year old franchise stalwart Han Solo.
I'll listen.
It wasn't a very good movie, but most of all HARRISON FORD (you know this guy) is kind of a big fucking deal. He IS Han Solo. You can't make a Han Solo movie without Harrison Ford as Han Solo.
There is no actor that has that kind of charisma in Hollywood right now period.
It's like making a Rocky movie without Sylvester Stallone playing Rocky.
It's not going to work.
Were the prequels Michael Jordan playing minor league baseball?
Excuses.
Who the fack was Ant-man tho? How did that movie beat Chewie and Han, franchise icons of 40 years gone by?
Paul Rudd is very charming and funny actually, but where was Ant-Man played by Harrison Ford previously? Yeah, never? Thought so. So that comparison doesn't work.
Ant-Man is a blank slate, you can cast anyone and the audience will go with it. You can't cast anyone as Han Solo, it is one of most iconic Hollywood roles in modern fucking cinema. OK? Little difference there.
Lets put Aldren Ehrenriech as Iron Man/Tony Stark instead of Robert Downey Jr. and pair it with a bland script and see what kind of business it does.
Oh man. That spin is epic. I will admit though, TLJ and R1 both made money on par with Black Panther. That's not bad. Not Avengers money, but not bad at all.
Honorable.
*giggles*
Yeah only takes an Avengers movie with every MCU character and the kitchen sink to make as more than the horrible (actually not really but lets just go with go with that) Last Jedi, ooooooh sick burn. Spider-Man Far From Home? Moar like Far From Last Jedi! hahahaha. Am I doing it rite?
Star Wars and Marvel need to stop being compared in general. Marvel is enormous with near limitless opportunities, characters and stories to explore. Star Wars has been telling a story about a single family for 40 years. Even if Star Wars takes place in an enormous setting (a literal galaxy), the scope of the franchise is extremely small.
Star Wars not reaching Marvel's popularity or money making potential isn't a failing on SW's part, its more a testament to how Star Wars outperformed its humble origins to even be in the same conversation.
Star Wars not reaching Marvel's popularity or money making potential isn't a failing on SW's part, its more a testament to how Star Wars outperformed its humble origins to even be in the same conversation.
Actually, he's right. The Jordan analogy isn't 1:1. It's more like LeBron vs. The Kevin Durant Warriors
No, just Black Panther.
TLJ didn't hit close to Avengers IW/EG money.
I dunno how come 85% of MCU movies can't make as much as the horrible (not really) Last Jedi tho? OMG! Maybe Fiege needs more back material to cherry pick from? lol.
I am kidding for people who take this too seriously
IMO it failed because it didn't really have one solid creative voice behind it
George took the money and ran and Kennedy (despite me enjoying her entire career and following it with interest) failed in her vision for it
You want to introduce new characters and not be tied to the weight of the past - do it.
You want to bring back all the old players and make them contextually relevant in the story - do it
It wanted a 'have cake and eat it too' for Force Awakens. I think if they wanted a passing of the torch, they should have done it in a way Luke, Han and Leia had more integral scenes together in FA and effectively they got that out of the way in setting up the new heroes by the end of that movie, leading the other two movies in the trilogy to be purely focused on new adventures with no ties to the past.
For all its detractors, I think Star Trek 09 also by Abrams handled this passing of the torch concept far, far better
George took the money and ran and Kennedy (despite me enjoying her entire career and following it with interest) failed in her vision for it
You want to introduce new characters and not be tied to the weight of the past - do it.
You want to bring back all the old players and make them contextually relevant in the story - do it
It wanted a 'have cake and eat it too' for Force Awakens. I think if they wanted a passing of the torch, they should have done it in a way Luke, Han and Leia had more integral scenes together in FA and effectively they got that out of the way in setting up the new heroes by the end of that movie, leading the other two movies in the trilogy to be purely focused on new adventures with no ties to the past.
For all its detractors, I think Star Trek 09 also by Abrams handled this passing of the torch concept far, far better
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Well yeah, no shit. All the characters in this new starwars trilogy are fucking geeks.
I'm 100% positive if I was a kid I would've loved the MCU.
I'm 100% positive if I was a kid I would've loved the MCU.
And Disney is completely cool with missing out on all that TLJ money for 2 year in favor of proven commodities like Eternals and Shang Chi.
I have to say, as someone who was a big star wars fan and who likes all the Disney sw films, I haven't really LOVED any of them like I have some MCU films.
And there's an ... oh 85% chance those two will fail to make as much as TLJ. How can that be if TLJ is so terrible and MCU gets everything right? And box office is the only barometer of anything meaningful?
The only MCU films that made any appreciable amount above TLJ are the Avengers All-star movies that require almost like all of the 50 different characters to appear in them.
And YET Disney is cool with taking that chance. Disney decided to roll the dice on those films and shelve 40 year behemoth SW for 2 years.
That's a fact.
So what? Does Disney give you any money from either franchise? lol. This isn't even a sports contest.
The fact is though MCU can't reliably beat even a supposedly mediocre Star Wars instalment like TLJ unless they stack the deck with an Avengers all-star movie.
That's not bad at all. To your Jordan analogy that's like a 40 year old Jordan clowing Shaq and Kobe circa 2002 and them needing another All-Star to beat him.
Solo was a bad idea, plain and simple. Recasting him with someone people aren't familiar with and failing to properly market the film/releasing outside of the established December timeframe was a bad idea too.
It also was an expensive production disaster.
Just mismanaged from top to bottom.
However, the other 3 SW movies all pulled over a billion WW.
SW is still a domestic powerhouse. Even with a 200M bomb included, Disney SW is averaging 576M domestic.
SW is just not nearly as popular as other franchisees OS, especially not on Marvel's level, yet still managed to do 3 one billion films.
Imo, I don't think there is any SW fatigue. I just think they royally fucked up Solo across the board.
Even WITH Solo, Disney SW is averaging 1.1B WW.
I think this is more of figuring out what people want to see from SW movies instead of actual fatigue. The numbers just don't reflect it. It's easy to jump to conclusions off of one bomb though.
I think people are going to be really surprised to see how well TROS does personally.
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So what? That is your answer? The company has literally prioritized releasing 2 unproven movies in the next 2 years while 40 year franchise giant (with an 85% chance of making more money) SW is shelved.
And the answer is "so what?".
Tee hee.
You know I love ya, Surf. 🙂
If SW and Marvel were independent stocks and you were looking at futures, where would you invest?
Nobody will read this but here goes:
The Force Awakens was fine and, as a film, I think The Last Jedi was fantastic, probably the third best in the series. But the former banked heavily on nostalgia and I think the latter resonated more with critics and cinephiles and (despite its high sales and critical reception) fractured the fan base. Both are character-centric and none of the new characters (barring Kylo maybe) are as interesting as the old guard. They're fine, but just not as fun or memorable.
The main draw of Star Wars for kids though is the fantastical universe, and the sequels are greatly lacking in world building. The prequels were laughable, but kids loved the vibrant worlds that each had their own unique geography and ecosystem. I didn't care about the trade federation or any of that stuff but that scene in episode 1 where they're dodging all those giant sea creatures on the way to an intricately designed bubble city? That was amazing. The closest you get to that in the sequels is Crait, and there's not much focus because it's just the site of the final battle.
But in the end I don't think that's the biggest issue. The sales of physical toys such as action figures are down in general nowadays, and there's a bigger variety of marvel characters. In fact, variety is the biggest difference between Marvel and Star Wars. There are so many different characters and settings in Marvel that just about anyone can find a favorite. Maybe a kid likes the galactic setting of GotG, or only cares about Spider-Man, or wants to see cool wizard shenanigans with Doctor Strange. They're all looking for different things and they can find all of them under the same umbrella: Marvel.
Star Wars on the other hand is fairly one note. You can tell a variety of different stories but there's nowhere near as many possibilities. You can't change the science fantasy setting or set it in a relatable place like modern earth without it just not being Star Wars anymore.
TLDR: Disney could have handled SW better but ultimately the result wouldn't be much different. We live in 2019.
The Force Awakens was fine and, as a film, I think The Last Jedi was fantastic, probably the third best in the series. But the former banked heavily on nostalgia and I think the latter resonated more with critics and cinephiles and (despite its high sales and critical reception) fractured the fan base. Both are character-centric and none of the new characters (barring Kylo maybe) are as interesting as the old guard. They're fine, but just not as fun or memorable.
The main draw of Star Wars for kids though is the fantastical universe, and the sequels are greatly lacking in world building. The prequels were laughable, but kids loved the vibrant worlds that each had their own unique geography and ecosystem. I didn't care about the trade federation or any of that stuff but that scene in episode 1 where they're dodging all those giant sea creatures on the way to an intricately designed bubble city? That was amazing. The closest you get to that in the sequels is Crait, and there's not much focus because it's just the site of the final battle.
But in the end I don't think that's the biggest issue. The sales of physical toys such as action figures are down in general nowadays, and there's a bigger variety of marvel characters. In fact, variety is the biggest difference between Marvel and Star Wars. There are so many different characters and settings in Marvel that just about anyone can find a favorite. Maybe a kid likes the galactic setting of GotG, or only cares about Spider-Man, or wants to see cool wizard shenanigans with Doctor Strange. They're all looking for different things and they can find all of them under the same umbrella: Marvel.
Star Wars on the other hand is fairly one note. You can tell a variety of different stories but there's nowhere near as many possibilities. You can't change the science fantasy setting or set it in a relatable place like modern earth without it just not being Star Wars anymore.
TLDR: Disney could have handled SW better but ultimately the result wouldn't be much different. We live in 2019.
Oh, I'm not arguing that SW is on Marvel's level WW, at all. I would bet on marvel for their established success and stability across the board.
I am just pointing out that SW still puts out excellent numbers and easily rivals Marvel domestically.
So a lot of the doom and gloom in regard to Disney SW is just unfounded, financially.
They had one bomb. Meanwhile the WW total for 4 films stands at 4.5B. I think people forget just how good that is, especially when you consider that a legitimate stinker is factored into that average.
Now imagine if solo wasn't a fucking production and management disaster. There would be no discussion here and Disney wouldn't have over corrected.
There's nothing wrong with what Star Wars is. The story in Star Wars that needed to be told really was told in the original three films.
And quite frankly Empire in particular shits on any MCU film by about a country mile.
But that's like the World War II of Star Wars ... if you try to top Vader and Palpatine you're only really undermining the importance of the OT.
And so where do you go? Luke has kids? OK. There's new young Jedi? OK. One of them is tempted by the Dark Side? OK. But this has all been done before and will never have the same impact.
As a self contained story arc though the story of Luke Skywalker + Darth Vader, gimme that shit any day over anything from Marvel/DC/whatever. And I've been a DC/Marvel fan since the 80s.
The only fantasy film stuff that IMO that can compete at that level of storytelling is Tolkien's LOTR and Game of Thrones flirted with being on that level before crash landing the ending.
I don't think it's an bad thing though. You and I have spoken about this. We love SW bit you are Martin and I am more Malcolm. You more Xavier and I more Erik. You get the point.
I think the old format of making trilogies is played and SW needs further reaching stories and more time for viewers to invest.
I like Rey but have no investment in her. Same with Finn and Poe. Kylo is interesting but he could have used a few more films to truly develop. 7+ hours across a trilogy isn't nearly enough time to get a satisfying investment and payoff for the audience, imo.
Times have changed. I truly hope the time off does the franchise good.
Star Wars is fine, it's doing numbers that every other IP but one would kill to do and it's harder to write than most popular fantasy because most other popular fantasy IP are based on pre-existing material that's already been test run on fans.
Changing the franchise too much because "Marvel" would be as dumb as ramping up the romance in Star Wars because "Titanic" in the wake of 1997.
Rogue One proved that the average Star Wars spin-off can still do monstrous business, that movie is not even 3 years old, lol. Solo was just a really bad idea in a role that can't be played by another actor.
Changing the franchise too much because "Marvel" would be as dumb as ramping up the romance in Star Wars because "Titanic" in the wake of 1997.
Rogue One proved that the average Star Wars spin-off can still do monstrous business, that movie is not even 3 years old, lol. Solo was just a really bad idea in a role that can't be played by another actor.
Good news is people still like the trilogy format. Bad news is that Lucasfilm has been pretty clueless with what else they should do, if you examine some of the turmoil behind the scenes.
Still genuinely shocked that an obi wan spinoff doesn't exist. That's gotta be easy money.
Stop. I am not gonna let that get run out here as an excuse for circular storytelling that LFL has been rolling out in its film division as of late.
SW, while not having been around as long as Marvel, has 40 years of excellent source material that Disney owns, in the EU. Planets, characters, weapons, ships...stories through comics, novels and such. They don't have to adapt 1:1 (hell, Marvel doesn't even do that; MCU is very different than the comics) but they can mine what they like and run with it. They own it all! The most interesting SW thing coming out for me is The Mandalorian and that is, to my knowledge, 100% original.
Please don't roll this argument out as a crutch.
And that is the problem, imo. Let that shit go, man.
Tell new stories about new people.
The goodwill it would generate, the new generation PT audience it would grab and and OT audience who praised Ewan even if having problems overall, and Ewan who has said repeatedly he's game
And they opted to do Solo instead. Crazy
Marvel is double the age of Star Wars, Star Wars was never really intended to be something with so many side characters. It's designed to be the story of one family primarily from inception to even today.
Marvel is 70+ years build up of "ah shit we gotta have a new book to press by Friday, just make something up I dunno like how a kid who has spider powers ... alright, have it on my desk by Monday" type thing.
You can't really write Star Wars like that.
There's nothing "wrong" or "bad" about that, OK? That is just a different style of storytelling, and quite frankly Empire Strikes Back still takes a giant shit on any modern so-called action adventure blockbuster, and at the end of the day that's what matters most, not box office receipts.
I feel that this problem solely lies with how Lucasfilm (and Disney) have handled Star Wars. In theory, Star Wars would have plenty of potential to be just as fruitful as the MCU. I mean, you can literally do anything because very little was established, especially since they destroyed the entire old EU.
But they decided for some absurd reason to not do that and to instead completely rely on nostalgia. Modern kids aren't going apeshit over a movie teasing Luke Skywalker or basing an entire movie on the past of Han Solo. Even The Last Jedi with its subversive approach to Star Wars very much relies on nostalgia to push its narrative with Luke, Yoda, overreliance on familiar beats and visuals (though, granted, less so than Force Awakens).
This potentially works for people like me or my parents who grew up with these characters and movies, but doesn't do shit for winning over new audiences.
But they decided for some absurd reason to not do that and to instead completely rely on nostalgia. Modern kids aren't going apeshit over a movie teasing Luke Skywalker or basing an entire movie on the past of Han Solo. Even The Last Jedi with its subversive approach to Star Wars very much relies on nostalgia to push its narrative with Luke, Yoda, overreliance on familiar beats and visuals (though, granted, less so than Force Awakens).
This potentially works for people like me or my parents who grew up with these characters and movies, but doesn't do shit for winning over new audiences.
It's not at all a problem, financially.
There's nothing to let go. Obi-Wan has a lot of potential there. SW films will be made indefinitely for probably decades. There's plenty of time for brand new stories.
But if they were gunna do an established character movie, it absolutely should have been Obi-Wan. It makes sense for the PT crowd and OT crowd. General audiences loved both trilogies.
You keep saying what SW was "intended to be" but there are all these stories and lore that make cross sections through the mythos, introducing new an interesting characters and locales.
There is meat to mine from. SW isn't absent of great source material. LFL has chosen to play things incredibly safe and not take chances.
I said it earlier, GOTG imo was better science fantasy than modern SW. With more memorable characters...from a shit tier comic that no one read when it was released.
Yeah call me when GOTG has more memorable characters than Yoda, Darth Vader, Han Solo, Palpatine, etc. let alone a story arc that has any real stakes to it.
They're fun films to watch but c'mon. No one's going to be talking about GotG 30-40 years from now as anything earth shattering.
Yeah, sci-fi space movies are for dorks. "Beep boop I talk in 300000 alien languages, Captain spacewalker we must put the ship in hyperdrive! Mmmm defeat the dark wizard you must!" Play some 70s music and crack some jokes or shut the fuck up.
Apparently Lucas wanted a solo movie, and Kasdan got it as a reward for doing TFA.
I don't know why anybody would think it's a good idea though, especially without Ford.
You're living in the past, bro. The article talks about the NOW. And Han Solo has recently proven that he isn't bankable in the here and now so why even evoke his name?
And stakes? Did you even watch the first 2 GOTG films? They had more stakes than the first 2 ST films, I will tell you that.
Good grief, the goggles on this one...
It's this, plus the new films are just lacking in a number of ways. Because the nostalgia bit has me tired and burned out, feeling like I'm being swindled into seeing something I've seen before, but better.
George, at least, tried to do new things, make things look different in the prequels. Say what you will about them, but kids loved them and it did capture their fandom.
Kasdan basically used it as a pawn to try and get his son's screenwriting career going. He agreed to do TFA only on the condition that he and his son would get to write Solo.