Not a clone. But he got injected with Jenova cells IIRC. That explains the headaches and visions, since Jenova can make anyone that has her cells hallucinate.
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Yoshinori Kitase on the ending of FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE (Spoilers ahead)
- Thread starter DiipuSurotu
- Start date
That's fucking awful. That's as bad as the shitty FFX-2 retcon.
He was experimented on by Hojo for four years and got injected Mako and Jenova cells. Due to Sephiroth "controlling" Jenova he can in turn control Cloud. His character arc during the game ends with him freeing himself from that control
No. Cloud really was a kid from Nibelheim that left for Midgar to become a SOLDIER like his hero Sephiroth, but failed the exam and ended up joining as an infantryman instead. A couple of years later he'd end up going back to Nibelheim as part of an expedition with Sephiroth and Zack to check out the mako reactor there and rumours of monsters.
Shit happened, the town burned down, Cloud killed Sephiroth and then he and Zack along with all the other survivors of the Nibelheim incident were kidnapped and experimented on by Hojo to confirm a theory he had. He believed Jenova cells were intrinsically linked and sought each other out to rejoin Jenova herself. Cloud experienced severe mako poisoning and between that, the Jenova cells and the trauma of watching his best friend die right in front of him fucked the guy up pretty badly and the only way he could cope was to fabricate an entirely new identity.
Sephiroth would later be able to use those Jenova cells to exert control over the people with them, as shown with the black robed men and of course Cloud himself. The only person that was largely unaffected by that was Zack, because according to Genesis they mutated inside him. Probably had something to do with the mako in him, which would also explain how Cloud was able to resist Sephiroth's control. The lifeblood of the planet does afford some protection against the virus that is Jenova, as Advent Children would later show us.
VII Remake is phenomenal and even though the end surprised me, I fell in love with it. Square hit a grand slam with this game!
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Why? It's a whole new story, they can kill Tifa instesd who tries to save Aerith.
Hmm so he killed Sephiroth in Nibelheim but then how is he still alive?
Honestly because based on Part I, Aerith is a much better character. It would be far more impactful to the story than Tifa, who was the weakest link. Maybe she becomes drastically better in Part II, III etc but for now Aerith just oozes a unique sense of charisma. Also considering she's an ancient story-wise, it makes sense that she would be the target.
This is from someone that only knows about what happens to Aerith and has played VIIR. She's a sweet person, sexy, and an absolute joy to use gameplay wise due to her style but outside of that her character pales to either of the main three characters. I even liked Jessie in the first half of the game. -_-
I don't know if it counts as spoiler but:
Cloud didn't kill Sephiroth in Nibelheim. He just threw him into the Lifestream. Afterwards, you meet the real Sephiroth inside a crystalized mako-thing.
Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream below the Nibelheim reactor and ended up at the Northern Crater in a dormant state, presumably with Jenova's help. Like 95% of Sephiroth's appearances in FFVII are his consciousness either fucking with Cloud or using another survivor of the Nibelheim incident to... fuck with Cloud.
Bizarro Sephiroth and by extension Safer Sephiroth were, essentially, Sephiroth's rebirth. The dude's physical self totally died at Nibelheim and it took five or six years for him to create a new body to inhabit, which Cloud and the gang obviously destroyed.
People are sorta giving you direct info without proper context, and I'm going to say that everything will be explained in the next part anyway.
That being said, if you want to actually know the stuff that leads to the story happening the way it does, here are two spoilers.
As the party becomes more aware of how dangerous Sephiroth is, they learn of his plan to summon Meteor through a special materia called the Black Materia. To stop him, they decide to find it first so they can keep it from him, and go to the Temple of the Ancients after getting the Keystone to get in.
They succeed, but right at the end, Sephiroth takes control of Cloud while you control a mysterious "Child Cloud," and try in vain to stop Cloud from giving Sephiroth the Black Materia, Before he ends up doing so and starts beating Aerith. Messed up situation, but thankfully she ends up alright.
They succeed, but right at the end, Sephiroth takes control of Cloud while you control a mysterious "Child Cloud," and try in vain to stop Cloud from giving Sephiroth the Black Materia, Before he ends up doing so and starts beating Aerith. Messed up situation, but thankfully she ends up alright.
After the events that transpire from After that, the party makes their way to the Northern Crater to confront Sephiroth and stop him from using the Black Materia. They manage to get it from him, but then something strange happens. Cloud is forced by Sephiroth to confront the Nibelheim Flashback, but now all the things he did are being done by some guy named Zack, and it's freaking him out. At the end, it's revealed that he was NEVER IN NIBELHEIM, and that his memories were false. Zack was the man there, and cloud just thought he was Zack the whole time, never having been in SOLDIER.
This totally fucks him up, because with his life being a lie, and his constant actions not being his own, this can only mean one thing.
He's just the same as the other "experiments" you see that show up for the Reunion. Cloud is actually a Clone of Sephiroth!!! He was given a false identity and was completely at the whims of Sephiroth, being nothing but a puppet. He give him the Black Materia, almost willingly at this point, and the crater breaks apart and he becomes missing in action for the next portion of the game.
This totally fucks him up, because with his life being a lie, and his constant actions not being his own, this can only mean one thing.
He's just the same as the other "experiments" you see that show up for the Reunion. Cloud is actually a Clone of Sephiroth!!! He was given a false identity and was completely at the whims of Sephiroth, being nothing but a puppet. He give him the Black Materia, almost willingly at this point, and the crater breaks apart and he becomes missing in action for the next portion of the game.
You eventually find out one last time the true events of Nibelheim from Cloud's perspective. It turns out he actually was there after all, he was a Guardsman on duty who was friends with Zack. It turns out that after Sephiroth went mad and went to the Nibelheim reactor after burning the village, Tifa got hurt trying to fight back with sephiroth's sword, as she was a tour guide down there. Cloud tried himself to take him down as revenge, but was stabbed through the stomach, but overcame it through sheer force of will, Picked Sephiroth up by the sword, and SLAMMED HIM INTO THE WALL, where he fell into the lifestream. He passed out from his wounds, but he and Zack both were captured and experimented on.
They were made to inherit the Jenova Cells Sephiroth was born with, but Zack resisted the process, and Cloud got massive Mako poisoning, so it was a failure. Zack escaped with a comatose cloud and was almost home free to Midgar, but ended up gunned down by Shinra outside the city. Cloud inherited the Bustersword in his stupor, and due to the Mako Poisoning ended up sublimating some of his friend's memories, now believing himself to be a cool Ex-soldier operative, First Class, something Zack was.
After that, he made his way to Midgar, Tifa found him delirious, and he recovered and eventually took the job for the Bombing run, and that's where the game started.
So he was made to believe he was a clone of Sephiroth, but in actuality he was never in soldier and was experimented on to eventually be controlled by Sephiroth. The revelation that reveals this, at the part of the game that it happens, brings back the personality Cloud has been hiding the whole time under his false memories, and he takes control again as a real leader to the party to defeat Sephiroth once and for all.
They were made to inherit the Jenova Cells Sephiroth was born with, but Zack resisted the process, and Cloud got massive Mako poisoning, so it was a failure. Zack escaped with a comatose cloud and was almost home free to Midgar, but ended up gunned down by Shinra outside the city. Cloud inherited the Bustersword in his stupor, and due to the Mako Poisoning ended up sublimating some of his friend's memories, now believing himself to be a cool Ex-soldier operative, First Class, something Zack was.
After that, he made his way to Midgar, Tifa found him delirious, and he recovered and eventually took the job for the Bombing run, and that's where the game started.
So he was made to believe he was a clone of Sephiroth, but in actuality he was never in soldier and was experimented on to eventually be controlled by Sephiroth. The revelation that reveals this, at the part of the game that it happens, brings back the personality Cloud has been hiding the whole time under his false memories, and he takes control again as a real leader to the party to defeat Sephiroth once and for all.
So like, it's a bit more complicated then "Jenova Cells," and actually plays really well into cloud's crisis of identity and makes for very good story telling, but it's been too long since most people have played it so they don't remember that's what happens.
Honestly, I think a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense in this game (apart from the Whispers, which are visibly dealt with and will no longer be an issue for the future parts) can be treated as cliffhangers due to the nature of the storytelling in the Remake.
Sephiroth is said here and there to be a warhero, and constantly antagonizes cloud in his head for mysterious reasons. There are hints, both subtle and not-so-subtle, that suggest Cloud has an incomplete understanding of his own past, or that he's potentially hiding stuff from the party. A lot of this stuff is explained by having played the original game, but since this is a remake of an early section, it's playing around with references to create mystique about the future of the series.
At the end of the day, if you really want answers to a lot of this stuff, I would suggest just playing or reading/watching a good story summary of FFVII. All the little hints from the Complilation are inconsequential additions to the game to flesh out the world, and should be treated more as flavour then anything you actually have to check out to understand anything.
I'm excited to see what happens in the Remake story, but I would bet that it would follow along with the main story for a good chunk with additions and fleshed out sections here and there, until the big stuff is about to happen and it gets crazy.
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How did he get from being thrown into the life stream in Nibelheim to being all the way up north crystalised
Sephiroth convinces Cloud he was a clone, but he's not. Hojo experimented on him by injecting him Jenova cells but that left him on a catatonic state.
Then Zack, who was also being experimented with, escaped the Nibel lab in which they were locked, but died before reaching Midgar.
Cloud, still on a catatonic state, 'steals' Zack's identity: he always wanted to be Soldier but he never got into, so his broken mind uses Zack to create a fake identity in which he becomes the man he always wanted to be, a stoic powerful Soldier.
Why Sephiroth uses Cloud, is because he wants to hurt him. Sephiroth was defeated by Cloud in the past and Sephiroth developed an obsession with Cloud, that why he lied to him about his past forcing a mental breakdown that allowed him to fully manipulate him to gave him the black materia.
Is probably explained on some of the compilation games or books or whatever. But originally there was no explanation, is one of the several undercooked plot points (or directly plot holes) of the original.
That makes sense. So Cloud was never in SOLDIER ever? He just did a mission with Seph in Nibelheim as a trainee SOLDIER or something?
So all the scenes in FFVIIR where he says he was in SOLDIER are not true right? It's just his memories think that?
It's been a while since I played the original so I think that's how it went?
Jenova is alien to the planet in more ways then one. Since Sephiroth came about as essentially "offspring" of Jenova, his conciousbess wasn't melted into the lifestream when he died and was flung into it. He basically drifted along it until he made it to the northern crater, where Jenova ended up creating when she arrived on the planet from space.
He then used the lifestream, and controlled those that had Jenova's cells in them, to make himself appear at various places and manipulate the party and events to gain the Black Materia. He doesn't physically appear anywhere in the story, he uses Jenova and the Hooded Figures as a proxy to do stuff while his body is frozen in crystal Mako at the crater.
Almost. Cloud had joined Midgar's Public Security Division as a guard in the hopes of becoming a Soldier, but he never got there by the time he gets back to Nibelheim. That's why Tifa doesn't recognize him there, he was embarrassed to have spent all that time and come back home as a loser, so he purposely kept himself from being noticed by the townsfolk, so by the time shit went down, nobody knew he was even there but Zack and Sephiroth.
Yeah, he never passed the exam. He accompanied Zack (who was the actual Solider in that mission) and Seph as a simple Shinra Guard in Nibel. He was so ashamed he never made it to Soldier that he hide his identity to Tifa and the others.
He made up all these memories replacing himself with Zack, basically. So in his mind, he was in Nibelheim with Sephiroth as a Soldier and he saw and interacted with Tifa and his mother. But in truth he hid from at least Tifa (I'm pretty sure he never met his mother neither, at least is ambiguous in the original, in the remake they will change that sadly)
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So that Niblebheim flashback you played in OG FFVII with Cloud and Seph in the truck going to the power plant near there, that was actually Zack and Cloud was telling the flashback as if it was him? But how would he remember it so vividly if he wasn't even there? But I remember seeing both him and Zack in the flashback too. Or it could be my bad memory.
Cloud is in the flashback. He's one of the random Shinra soldiers. And he still kills Sephiroth.
He was there, but as one of the standard Shinra guards that accompanies Zack and Sephi. Is just that in his version of the flashback he swapped himself with Zack.
Basically, he was there but after getting his new 'fake' personality he changed those memories by others in which he replaces Zack (so Zack, in his made up memories, was never there, he stole his place in the real events).
That's the reason why Tifa is so confused, she knows that the Soldier in Cloud's version is not him, but Zack. At the same time she doesn't know how he knows what all transpired there. The answer is that he was there as a regular Shinra's guard.
There's the memory of Cloud laying on the bed and his mother teasing him about girls. That memory felt too wholesome to be faked. I'm unclear about when that is supposed to have taken place, but considering Cloud tells Sephiroth he hasn't been home since he left to join, we can infer that memory takes place when Cloud comes with Sephiroth.
Is there any identity stealing beyond him convincing himself and others that he is a Soldier?
Or are there other aspects of his personality he specifically models on Zack?
If it is the latter, does he use any Biological Engineering to make it happen? I can't remember if the game ever addresses that.
That whole Existential Crisis part of the storyline never sticks in my mind, I'm always fuzzy about it.
This is how I feel, I am actually fine with having two parallel canons.
The OG will forever be timeless but the Remake is in my opinion something truly special and unique.
If we ignored the ending and pretend the game ended on the highway chase, it's basically the most perfect remake ever that goes beyond the original.
And that's the issue, is too wholesome. Looks perfectly made up along the other things. Is also one of the few 'fake memories' that are imcomplete or 'corrupted'. You would think being his last memories with his mother it would be crystal clear?
My theory is that he, as he did with Tifa, never faced his mother and the guilt from not visiting his mother when he could prompted his mind to make up those memories. Unlike the other ones those are totally made up (in the others he was present but from another point of view)
But is just a theory.... A game theory!
I mean, probably he DID met his mother, but the writing and the composition of the scene made it look ambiguous.
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I couldn't have said it better myself. The approach Square is taking with this game is extremely creative, and it came together beautifully in this game. Just like you said, the OG is definitely timeless, but I haven't played a game in years (outside of VR) that made me feel like a kid again like I did with VII Remake. In a time where I personally feel gaming storylines have become stagnant, VII Remake really proved me wrong on that.
He steals Zack's sword and 'Soldier status', but none of his personalities traits.
Cloud's dream was to become a Soldier and his role model was Sephiroth. So, when he created his new personality he created his ideal image of a Soldier: a stoic, distant warrior like his role model Sephiroth.
If I remember right, the game writing doesn't really implies this, but is evident in how Cloud's 'fake' self doesn't behave like Zack at all.
Thanks.
I wonder how we are to interpret Zack's appearence at the end of Remake then? The way he brings Cloud to Midgar.
To me it felt like it was implying Zack was pretty much about to die, so he makes sure to get Cloud to Midgar so he can kickstart the chain of events that leads to Cloud protecting Aerith?
The fact that people assume that it has to be between two women to die and not say, Cloud, when it's clear from the Remake that he is the connection Sephiroth has to the planet, blows my mind.
Yeah Zack is supposed to be a lovable goofball, not a rude aloof arrogant person like Cloud portrays himself at the beginning.
Yeah, it's pretty depressing after all those years of "please trust us we don't want to cut anything that's why we want to charge you full price multiple times" it's become "LOL ACTUALLY FUCK YOU we'll do whatever we want".
Pretty sure they want ppl to think Zack's survived. In the OG Cloud reached Midgar without help anyway, so he didn't needed Zack for that.
I'm 90% we won't see the whole twist in the Remake, after revealing Zack it kinda lost it's meaning an effectiveness. Since all people knows already the whole thing they will change it.
I mean, Cloud is still walking around with an obviously fake personality. So they still need to reveal why he got it and what the real Cloud is like.
Ah I see, fair enough.
Well one has to just hope they build something as emotionally poignant and with as much depth as the original story beats.
Considering how well I've enjoyed the Remake, I trust they will do the new timeline justice.
I mean it will be there, but it won't be a pillar of the narrative like in the original. I doubt we will get Sephiroth trying to convince Cloud he's a clone, the whole mental breakdown and all that.
In the original Zack dies to the gunners that he beats in that cut scene. When he's carrying Cloud to Midgar, is that not supposed to suggest Zack lives and this is a different timeline?
But in the original he was doing squats with Yuffie in the Highwind as a way to avoid nauseas with a fucking meteor days away from ending life on earth lol
Cloud in the original: gives epic, goofy motivational speech about saving the world, probably knowing they won't made it and all the people of the world will die.
Cloud in AC: get's sick, so he goes all emo
It's easier to start reconciling with loss when the world is already saved and you arent busy trying to save it
It didn't help after defeating Sephiroth, he lost all motivation to live (besides Tifa that is)
He has a 'family' and Tifa and he already dealed with loss and facing his real self, and he basically says:'I have to move forward', which is ultimately his genuine expression and his real self. I mean, depression is an interesting take for a character, but if they wanted to represent them in AC they did a incredibly bland representation of it.
Is OK to recognize that Cloud's characterization in media post original FF7 has been total crap, from AC, Dissidia and to KH.
Even the pre-Geostigma Cloud from the novels is wack. You read the Case of Tifa where they're supposed to be a pairing living together and still feels more like a mother and son or sister-brother relationship because Cloud is just so badly written and nothing like FF7 Cloud (post Zack fuckery)..
Having a family and people who love you doesnt mean you cant get depression
I just dont think the angle with his character in AC was bad. By the end of it he does become old Cloud again anyway.
The fact Nojima wrote them as this kind of disfunctional couple, for me is the shit cherry on top of the cake of shit the FF7 compilation is.
I know, but he already dealed with the lost of people dear to him, with Aerith and having lived a lie. The implication is that he was fucked and he managed to pull through, falling again with no reason or that he distances again after all he dealt with, makes no sense for the character.
At least in the way it was written.
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Looking only at the original game, we are always provided with evidence when a memory is incorrect. We eventually see exactly where Cloud was during pivotal moments in Nibelheim, and how they contrast with his "exaggerated" memories. But the memory of him visiting his mother is never corrected.
You're right that it's open to some interpretation, however I think the evidence suggests it is a real memory.
A few pieces of evidence help us here:
- Zack sees the whispers "explode" around Midgar, implying that their "death" has ramifications on his world/time/timeline. The takeaway? Things don't have to play out as we expect them to, meaning Zack can live
- The bag of chips blow past the camera, with a different Stamp on them. I call these Chekhov's Chips, like Chekhov's gun. We're shown this alternative Stamp because it's important, and the interpretation here is that we're in a similar but alternate timeline or dimension. Presumably the whispers kept all timelines or dimensions on similar tracks, meaning Zack should have died. The "death" of the whispers that Zack sees implies this can be different, but also that this doesn't take place in the same world or timeline as our party
- We don't see Zack die. Sure, maybe Part 2 picks up and he immediately collapses and dies. I once again point you to Chekhov's gun. Why show us something only to throw it away later?
The implication here is that destroying the whispers in our party's timeline has affected all times, and therefore things are changing in the past as well. Not only will we get to see a different set of events play out for our party in Part 2 (since they are no longer bound by destiny and the plot of the original FF7), but Zack living implies we'll even see a different take on Part 1.
In Crisis Core, Zack actually survives that part and walks away, before being found by the three gunners who take him out in the original game and shot on the cliff where he died originally.
So as of RIGHT NOW, the timeline isn't broken as far as Zack is confirmed. He could very much still die. The last shot we see of him is the two of them on the cliff where he dies.
The reason was time. He had more time with his thoughts and guilt without impending doom lying ahead. You dont just deal with a death and never have to think about it again and how it effected you and whether you were responsible or whether you could have changed things. Zack's death broke his mind, Aerith made it even worse, the ramifications of them are going to haunt him forever.
Look if you dont like it, Im not going to attempt to change your mind. There's lots of stuff about AC I dislike, Im just trying to explain why Cloud's characterization wasnt one of them.
I don't think 'time' is a proper narrative reason on presenting a character in a total different way from one medium to another. You are making an explanation that is not in the movie, not even presented or displayed.
You dont think the passage of time is presented or displayed in the movie? Ok I guess.
OP
OP
There isn't really a need for an explanation. The Lifestream is under the ground everywhere on the planet. Sephiroth got from Nibelheim to the Northern Cavern via the Lifestream.