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WSJ: Germany Struggles With an Unfamiliar Form of Anti-Semitism
- Thread starter vinnykappa
- Start date
The only people who refer to the "The left" are usually people from the right wing. In the context of their comment, that's all sorts of problematic.
First of all, I'm not right-wing, and I was just making a point that platitudes without action will eventually lose out to calls for action, even if the action is a bad one.
Second of all, just call me out from the start if you're going to, instead of being so passive-aggressive about it.
I did call you out just a few posts ago. But thanks for clarifying.
Literally both sides. Thanks for making your political stance clear.
I'm not here to burn people. Can I not mention that something makes me do a double take when it's phrased like that, especially in a topic like this?
Well critizising Israel kinda is. Let us remember how Sigmar Gabriel got called an anti semit when he crtitzised Israels behaviour, that was as recently as last week. So i wouldn´t say that there is any normal discussion when it comes to critizising Israel. Imagine there would be a poem like the one about Erdogan about Netanjahu.
Btw that is actually not just an anti-semit problem, you see Kurds and Turks going head to head on each other as well and many other minority vs minority groups, who equal their respective gouverments/leaders/history whatever doing/perception with that person they randomly meet and built themself an enemy to hit on.
It´s the same right wingers do when they tout all muslims are terrorists for example and the next day some refugee camps were set on fire.
The solution is the same, Education, getting to know each other and deplatforming of those who spread that hate combined with a strong judicial system.
This sounds odd to me. I mean, there are left parties, wouldn't it make sense to refer to them as "the left"?
It was what Alice said. Not the calm down in a sense that he should not express his frustration or shut up but rather not to do it with all caps with three posts in a row which is the equivalent of starting to yell as loud as possible in a debate.
I had several occasions on gaf and on here (related to racism in germany ,as a minority myself) where i was short of going all caps but then thought that the all caps guy is probably not seen as the one transporting his argument/problem well.
With Black/white i was referring to heated topics where people get lumped into two opposing camps/opinions pretty fast.
I apologize if i was/appeared insensitive but i still think we should not discuss even heated matters in ALL CAPS. US Police shooting dead another black man in the US would be unreadable.
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It is more efficient being able to quickly delegitimise your discussion opponent by throwing implications at them based on certain words. Which is not to say that some words ("SJW", "I'm not a racist, but..", etc) are not sort of "indicators", but "the left" certainly isn't because that simply refers to the left-wing political spectrum and the parties representing it.
There's an obnoxious tendency on ERA for posters to wink and nod to each other while insinuating about another poster's motivations, instead of just asking/accusing the poster directly. But I'll end this derail here.
User Warned: Inflammatory Generalizations
To be fair, there's nothing more frustrating than discussions about racism in Germany, especially if you have them with Germans, who all believe they're super progressive on everything and can never possibly be racist. Even Antifa people will grate on your nerves if you discuss something like the H&M Shirt a while ago.
There was no one having a discussion with me, just me pointing out to a poster that a comment of theirs raised my eyebrow. Lay off your hyperbole.
You may have missed it, but I did directly quote you. I responded to someone else in the same post, so maybe that got lost.
Why do you come into a thread about migrant violence against jews in europe and go "Well actually (non-migration-background) Germans are racist too!". Nobody is saying germans can't be racist, nobody is saying there isn't antisemitism amongst the non-muslim germans. This thread is about the increase in antisemitic incidents with perpetrators that are refugees, immigrants or descendants of immigrants.
Was really confused over what the fuss was in the page before, then realized I had the banned poster on ignore so I couldn't see quoted posts. WW2 milking, really? Welp, hes definitely going to stay on ignore now. Don't worry Aaron Stack, a lot of us see what's happening.
thanks for the clarification. I really only took issue with the calm down thing because it came off less like you were criticizing their use of all caps and more like you were criticizing their frustration
Why do you resort to dishonest arguments, completely ignoring that that's not at all what I came into this thread with, and for? Not to mention, why the hell do you feel the need to interject something I was talking about with another poster, based on our experiences with racism in Germany and how frustrating and anger inducing it can be to discuss it when we're talking about someone else venting their frustrations *because* of said racism?
Seems to me like you're the one actively trying to cause trouble right now.
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I should not even respond, given that your whole post seems to be entirely constructed after a "Ban-Baiting 101" manual. But here goes:
I'm not resorting to dishonest arguments and I'm not interjecting myself into something. Donos said he knows the feeling of wanting to go ALL CAPS, you go in and talk about how racist germans really are. After throwing implications at users for saying "european left" and then accusing others of "bothsiding" whatever that even means in this context. After the "But Israel is responsible for everything"-derail in this sort of threads, "But germans are super racist too!" is probably the second most used derail.
I lived in Dubai for some time and recall a similar experience. I was in a private American high school and the sections of history/geography textbooks about the Hebrew people and the Holocaust were completely torn out before they were distributed to students.
Well i wouldn´t call it a different opinion to outright call someone who critiques Israel an anti-semit and that is what usually happens. No discussion, just someone saying it and the anti semit bat hits back. That actually kills any discussion to be had and why many don´t critic in the first place to begin with and is a reason why there is next to no critcal discord to be had and that makes it a defacto taboo.
And you continue with dishonesty and victimizing yourself, while ignoring everything I've said in this thread to misconstrue something I said to another poster based on our experiences with racism in Germany. Maybe you should stop doing that, because no one is saying anything even close to the shit you're trying to push on me.
OMG
How full of yourself are you, that you believe people give a shit what raises your eyebrow?
Since you are so interested in eyebrows, wanna know what raises my eyebrow?
The fact that the term "the left" raised eyebrow, while the term "WWII milking" that was used a few posts ago didn't.
No, actually looking at your posts you first talk about racists and "right-wingers" (#243), then attack an user for saying "european left" with a rightwing-implication (#247, #253), then attack a user for "bothsiding" (#251, #256) after you got pointed out to you that "rightwingers" are used in the same way such as literally by yourself in #243 and then go on in #266 about how germans are incapable of talking about racism. So yes, this gave me the impression you seemed more concerned about somehow turning this into a right-wing issue (and those issues, as mentioned, of course exist, but often times it is also used as a way to derail, similar to "But Israel!") instead of what the thread is actually about, ie exactly not that. However I was wrong to phrase my original comment to you as "you come into this thread and..." because you posted before that too, so for that I apologize. Anyways, too much of a derail already, back on topic.
In regards to where the topic left off, of course "Deport them!" is not the way forward because a) it is entirely undifferentiated and b) legally impossible. However neither is dogmatically sticking to the status quo just because. Stricter and more specific hatespeech laws would be one first step. I am also positive towards the suggestion of making antisemitic violence such as seen in the video an offense forfeiting right of stay for immigrants that can legally be deported. And then, as long as antisemitism is rampant in certain parts of the world, I don't think it should be a taboo limiting immigration from these regions either. Specifically with finally making more return agreements with origin states as well as in the long term thinking about whether certain relevant international treaties should still be applicable in the world and circumstances of today in their current form, considering that they were written 70 years ago and not with recent and future illegal immigration levels in mind, and as such could potentially use modification. Merely continuing the status quo essentially also means letting the current trend towards the remaining jewish communities continue and potentially get worse.
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If you have an influx of people from countries where antisemitism, homophobia, and misogyny is seen as normal then its only a matter of time until these kind of incidents start increasing. Add that to the fact that a large number of this group has no intentions of adapting to western cultures and values and straight out despise them.
With the numbers increasing as fast as they are i fear for the safety for a lot of groups, especially members of the LBGTQ+ community in European countries
With the numbers increasing as fast as they are i fear for the safety for a lot of groups, especially members of the LBGTQ+ community in European countries
If you're denouncing Israeli policies in a thread about anti-semitic hate crimes in Germany, then you are part of the problem.
I find it very sad and hypocriticak that the rightwing has never given a fuck about the LGBT, or the Jewish, or for sexual violence, until they had a racialized group to crucify in their name.
There was a great quote from Douglas Murray, a gay, conservative journalist who likely wouldn't be liked round these parts. Anyway, he was talking about some of the fatuous prats you get at demonstrations, including a group called 'Gays for Palestine'. To which he said:
'For Christ's sake, if gays for Palestine lived in Palestine they would have to move to Israel'.
He finishes the talk by telling people not to fall for rubbish when it comes from 'the left' and not to fall from rubbish when it comes from 'the right'. Sensible advice.
I was having dinner with a family of Uyghurs a few years ago, maybe 2016, and when it got into politics, one of the hosts went off on how ISIS is actually a secret plot by the Jews to take over Iraq and Syria. I just asked a few questions like .. All their followers are clearly Islamic extemeists though right. So He said that the Jews are holding stacks of Qrans in a warehouse and if Isis members don't obey, they will set the warehouse ablaze, so they are being held against their will.
I just nodded and texted my friends.
I just nodded and texted my friends.
That's kind of terrifying. How do you even begin to reason with someone like that? What possible good will "education" do?
The "Al-Baghdadi is a secret Mossad agent" conspiracy theory is unfortunately incredibly widespread, given how ridiculous it is. I suppose that hating a group will also give you a bias of easily accepting even more ridiculous theories (really non-)related to them.
Part of the problem with adaptation is also Europe itself - the relatively monolithic cultures in each country make absorbing/assimilating immigrants more difficult there than in Canada/America, even prior to the refugee deluge.
Conservative parties all over Europe actually did all kind of laws which would fall under the progressive umbrella in the USA.
But it's always frustrating to discuss with people on ERA who are so stuck in the American exceptionalism that they are just plain unable to adapt to a different political landscape when talking about something not USA related.
Hamas executes gay people. It saddens me that people who proclaim themselves to be progressives support these evil terrorists and are so willing to throw gay people, women, jews and everyone else under the bus.
Yup. The Conservative party legalised gay marriage in the UK.
Not only Hamas executes gay people. Homosexuality is punished by death in most middle eastern muslim countries
Either the death penalty or long prison sentences. Jordan is the only major Muslim country in the Middle East that doesn't.
This is quite the contrast to Israel.
Neocons feigning concern for gay rights to bash Muslims is always so amusing.
The rightwing is the rightwing. Those who identify as conservatives. You know perfectly what the rightwing is, and muddying the waters with epistemological relativism won't advance your arguments, facts will. So far I haven't seen them.
He's gay himself though. He's just pointing out the ridiculous cognitive dissonance.
Yeah, it's cognitive dissonance for gay people to oppose settler colonialism. The wogs are culturally backwards, after all.
ah I meant countries. lets not act like its just Germany whos dealing with this stuff
... and what does smaller mean? Surface area? The continent's populations is certainly larger, so nothing made sense.