Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

[Deleted member 888]

I went out of my way to state (and even bolded) that I'm not talking about your worldview but the worldview of the games you're defending. It's pretty clear that you understand that worldview is fucked up. I then just don't see how you can't understand that games (and other media, but this is a videogame forum) that reinforce this worldview have some sort of culpability, especially if their primary audience is people who, according to you, are so prone to being radicalized.

Click to shrink...

Because lots of things exist in fantasy that are either on the edge, over the edge, or are depictions of things you or I wouldn't do in real life. That's why I tried to highlight real life vs fantasy earlier in the topic. The fact some people do horrible things, often illegal, which can be depicted in fantasy, isn't a direct correlation between consumption and action. I've watched some seriously fucked up French horror, heck, I've even seen a Serbian Film, which I recommend no one watches, and it in no way changed how I behave in the real world. The same goes for games. Viewing things that are by their content "adult" orientated, or violent, or something sinister, isn't necessarily endorsement. Artists can create horrible stories/depictions of things, and that doesn't mean they or anyone who consumes endorses said things.

The way to tackle the aggressors, in my best academic and personal opinion, is to go after the root causes of their behaviour. I've not got my doctorate yet, but given a lot of my posts in here people can probably piece together that psychology is my degree. I've seen many people want to know why young men get radicalised, and why aggression, hate and bitterness are often seen in the gaming industry. Well, if you ask me it's a lot deeper than sexualisation in gaming (as I said earlier some go exclusively to fantasy to get their sexual desires met, but that's often a consequence of personal failings/issues, not because they truly don't want real life interaction with others) given that there is a substantial evidence of people like you and I who can watch/play and read a whole host of fantasy and it does NOTHING to change our real-world/views. I know my arguments in this topic brush some up the wrong way, but it's debate and inquiry, not hostility. If some of you knew me as more than just an avatar you'd have all the proof you need of my personhood, attitude, nature, behaviour and political views that are as left-leaning and liberal as you can get.

I just have some bias to my field of study and "excitement" in debate that I truly think I have an understanding of how to tackle some problematic behaviour we see. I guess that's why I get a little passionate, but hey, debate is debate. We're not all going to agree, but I do feel there is a sincere and developed psychology in understanding who the boys and men are in these positions. Meaning, who they truly are. Not just their hobbies/interests. No, we can't read minds, but well adjusted, educated and reasonable people are not the ones starting harassment campaigns, assaulting people and being aggressive 24/7. I'll drop it in one last time, but if anyone wants to focus more on boys, sex education and trying to tackle problematic behaviour, this is a surface look at what can be attempted with some http://www.channel4.com/programmes/sex-in-class There is massive amounts of evidence about educating early in life, as development of the brain happens from a very young age.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I got a warning for posting this. This warning reinforced me in avoiding this topics like the plague. I was going to post lots of examples of games where this is not a problem but I don't wan't to risk my account because I really enjoy this forum for the most part. Have a nice discussion everybody, I am out of here.

Click to shrink...

The reason is that saying go play something else is not actually an argument. It's minimizing and distracting from the issue at hand to imply people stop complaining.

Whether that is your intention or not that's how it comes across in discussion.

 

[Laiza]

It's almost headache-inducing the speed and regularity with which the equal-opportunity objectification/sexism retort comes up.

It's real simple: The sexual objectification of a man isn't the same as with a woman because a man being sexually objectified doesn't remove his agency to be all the other things a man is normally (stereotypically) seen as being: powerful, smart, authoritative, etc. The sexual objectification of women is done almost to the exclusion of any other possibilities of what a woman can be. Women are sex objects by default. Men are sex objects as a derivation from the norm and often played for a laugh.

Pointing out instances of sexual objectification of men (or pointlessly announcing your openness to it) doesn't tip an invisible scale back toward the middle. A man in hot-pants doesn't suddenly make it okay to remove a woman's agency or autonomy.

Click to shrink...

THANK YOU.

This can't be emphasized enough. Gladiolus is not at all the same thing as Cindy, and anyone trying to make the two equivalent is being wholly disingenuous in doing so.

And I actually disagree that sexy designs are only done because they always have been done. There is a reason why these designs are done. It sells to the largest games audience: men. Yes, a developer may "just like girls" but still, sex sells. It always has and it always will. It's attention grabbing.

Click to shrink...

Please stop repeating this blatant falsehood.

The only thing that makes this "true" (it's not - look at the list of top-selling games of all time) is how often it's repeated as though it were true.

 

[Aters]

To me this kind of arguments never end on anything meaningful. The market has spoken, people have voted with their wallet, is OP suggesting people stop buying what they've been buying? "but TLOU sold well without sexy women" Yeah, go tell KT or IS to make TLOU.

It's the same as "I don't want micro-transaction". Half of EA's profit comes from it and you are telling them to stop?

 

[Gabe]

That's true, you didn't. That was more of a general comment. The second half of my sentence was more directed to you. Sorry if that was unclear.

Click to shrink...

Ok

Personally I don't feel that a game rather E or T by the ESRB, or which targets these audiences, is an appropriate place for your creepy sexual fantasies.

Click to shrink...

This is a problem with the rating then, rather than the creations themselves.

 

[Rackham]

It is when only the girls where outfits like that and the guys are wearing traditional martial arts clothing, spandex outfits or armour. You're just deflecting.

Click to shrink...

How am I deflecting? I agree it's stupid

 

[Laiza]

To me this kind of arguments never end on anything meaningful. The market has spoken, people have voted with their wallet, is OP suggesting people stop buying what they've been buying? "but TLOU sold well without sexy women" Yeah, go tell KT or IS to make TLOU.

It's the same as "I don't want micro-transaction". Half of EA's profit comes from it and you are telling them to stop?

Click to shrink...

The futility of the matter is entirely irrelevant. People are allowed to complain about it. The same thing as, for example, complaining about the idiotic things the Trump regime does on a near-daily basis - we might not have the power to impeach him (yet), but we sure as hell can make sure we're as loud as possible on the road to making things happen.

 

[Pirate Bae]

Well i guess our conversation is over.



I never said they should be absolved of consequences, is my english REALLY that bad?



I don't know why you people are acting like i said things i, in fact, didn't. Did i say "this expression have to frequently be at the detriment of women's representation" ?
Great conversation -_-

Click to shrink...

No, you didn't. But your meaning is clear: be careful who you criticize, because everyone is entitled to their expression, even if it's in poor taste and may be a problem to some people.

If I'm wrong, then by all means, please clarify.

 

[ShyMel]

The paradox regarding this issue is that many of the franchises that heavily feature sexulised women (e.g. Dead or Alive, Skullgirls, Senran Kagura) tend to have lots of anecdotes about how much higher the proportion of women who buy/play them compared to their genre peers. I have absolutely no idea why this seems to be a trend, and I'd love to see if this applies to other franchises (in particular, if Fire Emblem saw an uptick in the proportion of women who buy/play them with Awakening and Fates).

Click to shrink...

In the case of DoA and Skullgirls, I think it has more to do with how in general fighting games in general have more female character options than other genres, which attracts women to play them. Almost a fourth of Tekken fans for example are women.

 

[Dice]

To me this kind of arguments never end on anything meaningful. The market has spoken, people have voted with their wallet, is OP suggesting people stop buying what they've been buying? "but TLOU sold well without sexy women" Yeah, go tell KT or IS to make TLOU.

It's the same as "I don't want micro-transaction". Half of EA's profit comes from it and you are telling them to stop?

Click to shrink...

Women just want to be treated with some respect.
Sexy characters happen and are indeed even a reflection of real life, but games have issues with an incredible lack of subtlety and nuance. A lot of the rhetoric surrounding its enforcement just reinforces the idea this discussion is needed because that can even be more offensive.

Furthermore, Japan is not alien to sexism nor exempt from criticism for it, if anything they're somewhat well-known for some painful sexist societal ideas (women are largely still seen as the housemakers and take on bulk childcare duties) despite their first world status.

I'd argue we've seen some positive change this gen too.
Alloy and Uncharted The Lost Legacy have shown you really don't need the sexy stuff to sell, and if it's not there to begin with you might not even miss it.

 

[Giudecca]

The futility of the matter is entirely irrelevant. People are allowed to complain about it. The same thing as, for example, complaining about the idiotic things the Trump regime does on a near-daily basis - we might not have the power to impeach him (yet), but we sure as hell can make sure we're as loud as possible on the road to making things happen.

Click to shrink...

That's kind of a false equivalency. Like others said, the vast majority of the designs are created by a different culture that we have very little access to. The "road" was never ours and won't be ours.

 

[Maxina]

You can have fanservice without creating 13 year old characters or titty monsters whose sole purpose is to love the main character and who don't have much of a personality otherwise. And Echoes is unfortunately the exception, not the norm.

Click to shrink...

But it is the norm. Awakening and Fates are the exception. Fire Emblem games before Awakening do exist mind you.

 

[Laiza]

That's kind of a false equivalency. Like others said, the vast majority of the designs are created by a different culture that we have very little access to. The "road" was never ours and won't be ours.

Click to shrink...

We have plenty of access to it. We're buying their bloody games, after all. They can ignore the wave of the future at their own peril.

 

[Aomame]

This is a problem with the rating then, rather than the creations themselves.

Click to shrink...

Again you're doing some selective reading. I said games that are rated E or T (which, yes, is an issue with the ESRB then) or games which target these audiences. FFXV, for example, has fairly tame subject/content matter and is arguably aimed at teens up, yet there's a chick walking around with her titties and ass cheeks hanging out.

 

[Aeron]

I think some people would only truly understand if a ton of games they played started sexualising the male characters like they do females.
After the umpteenth time of a gratuitous, out of place, ass shot and ridiculous looking armor perhaps it'd finally sink in.

 

[Deleted member 2595]

Thanks Persephone. One can sense that true frustration has made your rhetoric in that OP razor sharp.

Now to look and see what people are saying... *gulp*

I think some people would only truly understand if a ton of games they played started sexualising the male characters like they do females.
After the umpteenth time of a gratuitous, out of place, ass shot and ridiculous looking armor perhaps it'd finally sink in.

Click to shrink...

That sounds like a fun exercise... Might pen a game based entirely around that haha

 

[Pilgrimzero]

The sexualizing of Ellie between Dead Space 2 and 3 is hilarious in a sad way.

 

[D i Z]

Infinitely thank you Persephone for this thread, and FInale Fireworker for his usual insightful input.
Also to other posters, if you're going to drive-by post arguments that have been made to death, like "sex sells" or "artistic freedom", at least put a bit more thought to it.



It's almost as if women were less numerous in videogame message boards, and also tired to death of saying the same things over and over and being ignored (case in point, you just entirely ignored Persephone with a "lol white knights" argument).



23 years ago, one of the highest-budget and best-selling games made had a female main character for its first half and another female main character for its second half; they looked like this:

Contrast and compare with FFXV and tell me again about progress.

Click to shrink...

.

 

[WoollyTitan]

Why don't men ever criticise over-muscled jocks and hunks? Why do the same women who criticise sexualized female characters swoon and get all buttery in the nethers over those same over-muscled jocks and hunks?

It's a mystery!

 

[Giudecca]

We have plenty of access to it. We're buying their bloody games, after all. They can ignore the wave of the future at their own peril.

Click to shrink...

Us voting with our wallets won't actually do any good. Many Japanese creators in the past have brushed off comments as "foreigner criticism". Japan has no problem simply not releasing the game in the West to avoid any problems. See: Dead or Alive Extreme Beach Volleyball 3.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

How am I deflecting? I agree it's stupid

Click to shrink...

I think the original point I am trying to make is you have an avatar of a show with an uneven depiction of women. (Some of those master Roshi overcoming his "urges" episodes are gross) but you are saying you roll your eyes at people who consume Japanese products. Maybe be more self aware here?

 

[Gabe]

No, you didn't. But your meaning is clear: be careful who you criticize, because everyone is entitled to their expression, even if it's in poor taste and may be a problem to some people.

If I'm wrong, then by all means, please clarify.

Click to shrink...

I never said you shouldn't criticize, i said the the position of "freedom of expression is bullshit" is a dangerous one to have, since it's the very same freedom that grants YOU the ability to criticize anything.

Expressing why you feel something is wrong is rightful critique (regardless of the position), suggesting that someone shouldn't have the freedom to express themselves is a very different thing and it would, in turn, make your very own critique a target of the same behaviour.

In the words of someone way smarter than me: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

 

[psychowave]

But it is the norm. Awakening and Fates are the exception. Fire Emblem games before Awakening do exist mind you.

Click to shrink...

I know, and Intelligent Systems has decided not to care about them.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I do hope we get parity eventually in male/female sexualization. I'd be totally cool playing a serious game with a sexy military man in a banana hammock for the majority of it.

That's why I don't play 99% of Japanese games and I roll my eyes at people who do. Especially anime inspired games. Just wow. Being Japanese doesn't excuse it.

Click to shrink...

Well look at mister Judgy Jason over here.

 

[Principate]

I think some people would only truly understand if a ton of games they played started sexualising the male characters like they do females.
After the umpteenth time of a gratuitous, out of place, ass shot and ridiculous looking armor perhaps it'd finally sink in.

Click to shrink...

That won't change too much. The most resistant people would simple complain about developers chasing after woman at the expense of their core audience. Your assumption is that many of these people argue in good faith they don't. If your someone is a dedicated consumer of JApanese "anime" video games they'll also more likely to be aware of a growing trend of anime focused entirely on women. I have seen a many if any rethink their stances when faced with that.

 

[Laiza]

Us voting with our wallets won't actually do any good. Many Japanese creators in the past have brushed off comments as "foreigner criticism". Japan has no problem simply not releasing the game in the West to avoid any problems. See: Dead or Alive Extreme Beach Volleyball 3.

Click to shrink...

I don't know about that. Maybe one day some devs will look at the success of the Dark Souls series and realize they don't need base pandering to make a list-topping blockbuster.

Why don't men ever criticise over-muscled jocks and hunks? Why do the same women who criticise sexualized female characters swoon and get all buttery in the nethers over those same over-muscled jocks and hunks?

It's a mystery!

Click to shrink...

There are so many assumptions happening in this post that I don't even want to touch...

 

[Dice]

Why don't men ever criticise over-muscled jocks and hunks? Why do the same women who criticise sexualized female characters swoon and get all buttery in the nethers over those same over-muscled jocks and hunks?

It's a mystery!

Click to shrink...

We do?

Even if, I think we care comparatively less than men might about a wet tshirt contest.

 

[Rackham]

I do hope we get parity eventually in male/female sexualization. I'd be totally cool playing a serious game with a sexy military man in a banana hammock for the majority of it.



Well look at mister Judgy Jason over here.

Click to shrink...

It's actually Judge Jeff

 

[RockTiddies]

I don't know about that. Maybe one day some devs will look at the success of the Dark Souls series and realize they don't need base pandering to make a list-topping blockbuster.


There are so many assumptions happening in this post that I don't even want to touch...

Click to shrink...

you are making the assumption that people who buy titty games only buy titty games and nothing else. The success of a non-sexualized series does not point to the opposite being proof of something being popular or enjoyed by a large percentage of the gaming community

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Why don't men ever criticise over-muscled jocks and hunks? Why do the same women who criticise sexualized female characters swoon and get all buttery in the nethers over those same over-muscled jocks and hunks?

It's a mystery!

Click to shrink...

Uh we do? You know how many people hate how big Chris Redfield was in RE5 and 6?

But it atleast makes sense for guys fighting wars against aliens or in medival times and shit to be muscular even if they over do it. It doesn't make sense for women fighting thw exact same war to have their boobs exposed in their armour like that part of their body is imune to all damage.

 

[Morrigan]

That's why I don't play 99% of Japanese games and I roll my eyes at people who do. Especially anime inspired games. Just wow. Being Japanese doesn't excuse it.

Click to shrink...

You're free to be judgmental but please avoid sweeping generalizations.

Why don't men ever criticise over-muscled jocks and hunks? Why do the same women who criticise sexualized female characters swoon and get all buttery in the nethers over those same over-muscled jocks and hunks?

It's a mystery!

Click to shrink...

Don't be condescending and dismissive, not to mention that's a false equivalence that has been addressed in this thread several times. Remember, it's OK to not post.

 

[Gabe]

Again you're doing some selective reading. I said games that are rated E or T (which, yes, is an issue with the ESRB then) or games which target these audiences. FFXV, for example, has fairly tame subject/content matter and is arguably aimed at teens up, yet there's a chick walking around with her titties and ass cheeks hanging out.

Click to shrink...

How am i doing selective reading??? O_o

Even in your example, if you feel like in FFXV there's content that you don't deem fitting for an E or T rated game, by all means complain about it.
Again: my point is only that the thought of forcing what an artist can or cannot do (as some posters here suggest) is super wrong and dangerous.
You can complain, you even have the amazing freedom of not buying a product and not supporting it.

For the last time: i never said you shouldn't complain if you feel like it.

 

[CannonFodder52]

Thanks for the write up, OP. I'm interested in seeing where this discussion goes.

 

[WoollyTitan]

There are so many assumptions happening in this post that I don't even want to touch...

Click to shrink...

Maybe because you can't. :/ Stereotypes exist for a reason, because there's always more truth than lies to them. And there's nothing more obnoxious than having a righteous crusade torn to pieces by a godamn stereotype. I....actually know that all too well.

Let me ask you a simple question: What the hell is wrong with sexualized characters - male and female alike? We have no problems with torture porn, or gore-fest shooters where you get points for shooting people in the nuts. But, whoa! A hot woman in a bikini? UNACCEPTABLE!

Why do we glorify violence, something that ends life, while condemn sex, something that brings life? It doesn't compute.

Now don't take this the wrong way - I'm more of a characterization guy. I'll take a good story and good character over character design any day. But why the fuck do we get so upset at something so innocuous at the end of the day? Like, who are we fooling?

 

[Delusibeta]

In the case of DoA and Skullgirls, I think it has more to do with how in general fighting games in general have more female character options than other genres, which attracts women to play them. Almost a fourth of Tekken fans for example are women.

Click to shrink...

I'm actually going to dig out some of the anecdotes that I mentioned in the previous comment: here's Lab Zero's big cheese Ravidrath saying that their audience is "roughly evenly split between men and women" (based on who turned out for their Anime Expo panel) and that "the Skullgirls audience seems to have a lot more women in it compared to other fighting games". Meanwhile, here's Marvelous Europe's marketing manager Michael Fisher estimating the proportion of Senran Kagura's female fanbase as "probably 30% to 40%, for sure". Again, anecdotes, but both numbers are a fair bit higher than the 23% number for Tekken.

 

[Pirate Bae]

I never said you shouldn't criticize, i said the the position of "freedom of expression is bullshit" is a dangerous one to have, since it's the very same freedom that grants YOU the ability to criticize anything.

Expressing why you feel something is wrong is rightful critique (regardless of the position), suggesting that someone shouldn't have the freedom to express themselves is a very different thing and it would, in turn, make your very own critique a target of the same behaviour.

In the words of someone way smarter than me: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Click to shrink...

"Freedom of expression" really isn't a freedom if it demeans and insults an entire gender and makes them nothing more than fap material in an otherwise non-sexualized game. It shouldn't happen, period. Otherwise, creative freedom is great. But not in regards to an issue such as this. (I'm talking about developers here, and not the debate going on in this thread.)

I understand what you're saying though. Sorry for the miscommunication.

 

[bahorel]

Why don't men ever criticise over-muscled jocks and hunks? Why do the same women who criticise sexualized female characters swoon and get all buttery in the nethers over those same over-muscled jocks and hunks?

It's a mystery!

Click to shrink...

Over muscled jocks are created for the male gaze just as much as the sexualized women. What women do you actually know that are fawning over them, exactly?

 

[Deleted member 2595]

Why don't men ever criticise over-muscled jocks and hunks? Why do the same women who criticise sexualized female characters swoon and get all buttery in the nethers over those same over-muscled jocks and hunks?

It's a mystery!

Click to shrink...

This, um, better be sarcasm.

If so, bravo.

If not... *shudder* I'd like to see all these scantily clad 'over-muscled jocks and hunks' you're referring to.


Edit: right, so you weren't being sarcastic. Welp, that was painful.

Let me ask you a simple question: What the hell is wrong with sexualized characters - male and female alike? We have no problems with torture porn, or gore-fest shooters where you get points for shooting people in the nuts. But, whoa! A hot woman in a bikini? UNACCEPTABLE!

Click to shrink...

Nothing is wrong with sexualisation when it's even handed.

The problem is that it isn't.

Female characters receive the repeated and serial blunt-end of the sexualisation stick while male characters only do a fraction of the time - and when they do, it's male power fantasy stuff rather than actual 'attractive male' stuff.

 

[Deleted member 2595]

dp

 

[John Rabbit]

Why don't men ever criticise over-muscled jocks and hunks? Why do the same women who criticise sexualized female characters swoon and get all buttery in the nethers over those same over-muscled jocks and hunks?

It's a mystery!

Click to shrink...

Holy hell the smarm on this post.

Here's why men don't criticize "over-muscled jocks and hunks": Because it's not a negative for men to be portrayed that way. They are still revered in their "man-ness"; often as a direct result of their stature and/or physical appearance.

Here's why women criticize "sexualized female characters": Because it's denigrating and reductive. They are not revered in their "women-ness"; often as a direct result of their presentation as a single-use object for men.

How many times can the same idea be expressed for you to understand this?

 

[Persephone]

Why don't men ever criticise over-muscled jocks and hunks? Why do the same women who criticise sexualized female characters swoon and get all buttery in the nethers over those same over-muscled jocks and hunks?

It's a mystery!

Click to shrink...

I know you're banned and all, but I'm a lesbian. And I oppose female objectification. Chew on that for a while.

 

[VallenValiant]

Women just want to be treated with some respect.

Click to shrink...

I want to be treated with respect too. But I don't consider men being disrespected in fiction to be a personal insult to me. And if I wanted to I can point out many female entertainment in Japan completely misrepresent men and how men behave. But that would be intruding on other people's enjoyment, so I don't do that. Women should be free to have their entertainment fiction where men acted the way they like men to be, whatever it is that they fancy.

The whole point of fiction is that it isn't real. And if you think you can engineer human society to suit your needs by changing gaming, you don't understand human society.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Sexualization does not mean objectified. Lots of men and women in gaming and other mediums are sexualized. Chun Li is sexualized and so is Quiet. Are those 2 characters the same thing?

 

[Deleted member 2595]

Ha, first time I've seen the new transparent ban procedure in action.

Fantastic stuff. <3 u ResetEra

Sexualization does not mean objectified. Lots of men and women in gaming and other mediums are sexualized. Chun Li is sexualized and so is Quiet. Are those 2 characters the same thing?

Click to shrink...

Read the second paragraph in the OP. The problem is that women are repeatedly sexualised while men aren't.

Even if sexualisation itself isn't a problem (which IMO it isn't, necessarily) that's a terrible double standard.

 

[Alexhex]

I think some people would only truly understand if a ton of games they played started sexualising the male characters like they do females.
After the umpteenth time of a gratuitous, out of place, ass shot and ridiculous looking armor perhaps it'd finally sink in.

Click to shrink...

This is absolutely what would happen. It's like how some react to representation in games: lots of people tout that we need to quit complaining about a majority of main characters being cishet white dudes, but they go absolutely nuts when forced to play as an ethnicity different from their own in something like Rust or when a woman is put on the cover of a FIFA game.

 

[CannonFodder52]

I want to be treated with respect too. But I don't consider men being disrespected in fiction to be a personal insult to me. And if I wanted to I can point out many female entertainment in Japan completely misrepresent men and how men behave. But that would be intruding on other people's enjoyment, so I don't do that. Women should be free to have their entertainment fiction where men acted the way they like men to be, whatever it is that they fancy.

The whole point of fiction is that it isn't real. And if you think you can engineer human society to suit your needs by changing gaming, you don't understand human society.

Click to shrink...

Do you think it's equivalent?

 

[Deleted member 19066]

Over muscled jocks are created for the male gaze just as much as the sexualized women. What women do you actually know that are fawning over them, exactly?

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I really don't know what sexualized men that pander to women would look like. All I can think of is Japanese gay romance manga. The ripped, hunky-type guys some of these posters are thinking about seem to have more gay men fans than women.

 

[Jaffo]

My sister cosplayed Quiet. Next year she will try Bayonetta. So not all girls are like that :D

 

[Aomame]

How am i doing selective reading??? O_o

Even in your example, if you feel like in FFXV there's content that you don't deem fitting for an E or T rated game, by all means complain about it.
Again: my point is only that the thought of forcing what an artist can or cannot do (as some posters here suggest) is super wrong and dangerous.

Click to shrink...

I'm not complaining about the ratings themselves (well, a little, but like I said, that's not the part I directed toward you), but that creators need to consider their audience. If you were invited into a middle school to do a presentation, are you going to include graphic sexual content? Absolutely not. If you're marketing your game to teens, should you put tits in it? Probably not. The problem is, game developers place these sexualized women and outfits in otherwise completely non-sexual environments and situations. These aren't the contexts in which you should also be injecting your weirdo ass obsession.

It's also a bit silly to assume that game developers simply make their product then send it off to the ESRB blind. They know what rating they want and they design their game to fit that audience. Same deal for movies -- they know precisely how many swear words they can get away with in a PG-13 movie and they design that movie around their audience.

You can complain, you even have the amazing freedom of not buying a product and not supporting it.

Click to shrink...

As has been stated, this is a dismissive argument. Games which treat women well are few and far between, unfortunately. If I'm not buying X game because it treats women like garbage, there's not necessarily another game for me to turn to, and therefore I don't buy a game at all. This is one of the (many) reasons women have a rough time being "gamers" or participating in gamer culture. It's also hard to feel out which games might have crappy portrayals of women before you actually purchase it and play a bit of it because, again, game developers inject their sexual fantasies into otherwise innocuous settings. Your statement is only a few steps away from "well, if you don't like how games treat women, don't play games."

Not buying games or not supporting games that treat women poorly would mean missing out on a number of AAA games, missing out on games that are otherwise fun to play, missing out on games that do other things really well. This is a pervasive, unavoidable issue in gaming and it's not as simple as "well, complain about it!" or "just don't buy it." It requires thoughtfulness and action on the part of game developers to change their ways, the integration of more women in game development and design (who can tell these men to quit the nonsense), and, yes, sometimes begins with female gamers calling out these behaviors. Which we do. Often. And then men reply that we're being buzzkills or that we should just ignore it or that we shouldn't play the game.

 

[Deleted member 2595]

I want to be treated with respect too. But I don't consider men being disrespected in fiction to be a personal insult to me. And if I wanted to I can point out many female entertainment in Japan completely misrepresent men and how men behave. But that would be intruding on other people's enjoyment, so I don't do that. Women should be free to have their entertainment fiction where men acted the way they like men to be, whatever it is that they fancy.

The whole point of fiction is that it isn't real. And if you think you can engineer human society to suit your needs by changing gaming, you don't understand human society.

Click to shrink...

Men are disrespected in fiction?

Cool. News to me.

(The fact that you think it's anywhere near comparable to how women are represented is borderline funny, except it's not. It's sad. A sad thing. What you're equivocating here is like seeing an angled see-saw and saying it's completely flat, parallel.)

My sister cosplayed Quiet. Next year she will try Bayonetta. So not all girls are like that :D

Click to shrink...

In a vacuum, these characters can be defended on many grounds - but in this thread, and in this conversation, we're trying to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Even if Quiet and Bayonetta are OK - where's the male Quiet and the male Bayonetta? If you can't find them, why can't you find them? What does that say about our culture's assumptions about what women can do and what men can do?

Where's the scantily clad male sniper who poses near-naked for us and almost gets raped in game? Where's the hair-covered wizard who casts his voluptuous body hair out, becoming increasingly nude, as part of his magic?