Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

[Deleted member 4461]

I'm amazed at the number of men who feel the need to jump into this thread yelling BUT NOT ALL WOMEN FEEL THIS WAY! CHECKMATE!!! as though anecdotal evidence of one woman not having a problem with it means it's suddenly no longer an issue.

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So, for clarity. Is the issue the fact that oversexualized designs exist at all? Or is it the ubiquity? If it's the former, I think it's valid that people (especially women) have different opinions on the subject. If the latter, I 100% agree that it shouldn't be quite so common.

 

[Aske]

Well, a lot people in this very thread are arguing about how female presentation in videogames detriments social justice and ask why we get all these sexy design in videogames. The thing is, the devs behind DOA Volleyball probably give zero fuck about social justice. They just want to make a soft porn (they might as well enjoy the process of making soft porn, or even be proud of it, but that won't change the fact that DOA Volleyball is not art, it's just soft porn). Therefore the question becomes "why do we get these sexy ladies in porn?" And that's easy to answer.

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I'm about to blow your mind: porn is art. Art is creative expression, and anyone who tries to qualify the definition along lines of taste, social value, or complexity, is discriminating against the creative expression of other people with different perspectives.

To try and paint certain games as "art" or "porn" is profoundly disingenuous. I'd like to think we all know the difference between Dead or Alive and Bible Black; and discussing the different portrayals of women in those franchises (as well as the distinct positioning of those games in the industry and broader society) is worthwhile.

 

[Aurica]

There's a lot of discourse in feminist and critical analysis spaces regarding what the female gaze would look like if it can exist at all. Laura Mulvey's "Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema" is a touchstone text in this consideration; it should be fairly easy to find online. It's been some time since I read it but, if my memory serves, I think she more or less implies that it's impossible for a female gaze to exist as the male does because women lack the power to impose that gaze. In the context of this discussion, women do not sexualize or objectify men in the same pervasive, socially-condoned, universal ways that men do women. There's no parallel to the breasts or ass on the male body; one could maybe argue the penis is, simply because it is genitalia, but even then, it's frequently a symbol of male power and domination.

It's difficult to establish a female gaze when women lack the institutional power to create and implement it in works of media.

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You're brilliant. This whole post is great.

 

[Deleted member 1273]

Big general comments? It's a direct quote in response to someone, what are you even getting at.

This is cryptically vague for someone who's clearly taking issue with something. What's your deal?

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Cindy was designed to be sexy and her outfit to highlight her femenine parts and form, Gladio was designed to look cool and strong.

You can be attracted to Gladio rather than Cindy because your preferences, but that doesn't remove the fact that they were designed with such motives, your reply is a false equivalence and that's about it.

 

[Deleted member 2595]

I'm about to blow your mind: porn is art. Art is creative expression, and anyone who tries to qualify the definition along lines of taste, social value, or complexity, is discriminating against the creative expression of other people with different perspectives.

To try and paint certain games as "art" or "porn" is profoundly disingenuous. I'd like to think we all know the difference between Dead or Alive and Bible Black; and discussing the different portrayals of women in those franchises (as well as the distinct positioning of those games in the industry and broader society) is worthwhile.

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Hah, yeah. Well said.

 

[Dice]

There's a lot of discourse in feminist and critical analysis spaces regarding what the female gaze would look like if it can exist at all. Laura Mulvey's "Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema" is a touchstone text in this consideration; it should be fairly easy to find online. It's been some time since I read it but, if my memory serves, I think she more or less implies that it's impossible for a female gaze to exist as the male does because women lack the power to impose that gaze. In the context of this discussion, women do not sexualize or objectify men in the same pervasive, socially-condoned, universal ways that men do women. There's no parallel to the breasts or ass on the male body; one could maybe argue the penis is, simply because it is genitalia, but even then, it's frequently a symbol of male power and domination.

It's difficult to establish a female gaze when women lack the institutional power to create and implement it in works of media.

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This is amazing and...sorta sad that men grow up so accustomed to these sights and images and ideas that taking it away is indeed like trying to remove that big piece of the pie that you've always been served.

But it's time. Women want to be taken seriously, and constantly serving up these sights and images is a hinderance to our perception of women.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Try looking at romance novel covers.

Just looking at those should tell you everything about the sort of cultural hegemony that pervades our society.

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So to clarify, does the typical romance novel cover contain the stereotyped sexualized poses of men that women actually find sexually stimulating or are you saying that even those stereotyped male poses are an outgrowth of a masculine perspective on what women are supposed to find sexy?

 

[Crossing Eden]

It comes down to if you don't like it than change it. More females need to be in game development. Also the director of god of war is a female. So let that sink in.

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David Jaffe and Corey Balrog? Perhaps you're talking about Amy Hennig who used to direct Uncharted.

 

[Her Hero Is Gone]

Which is hilarious because it's not even on the same level as a women with her tits hanging out. Until a man is wearing spandex with half his ballsack sticking out it will never be the same.

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Yep. I think to have a real analogue for objectification of men, the shirtless guy thing doesn't work. It's too tame and not completely focused on sexual aspects, since it's often used to illustrate the character's physical power and the image of shirtless dude also has other associations like hard work, etc.

It's missing some important stuff. Vulnerability, ridiculousness, and size-judgement of physical features as they relate to sexual attractiveness. There's also the cringe factor where it takes you out of the game or makes you not want to play it in public spaces because it's embarrassing and contributes to others who haven't been desensitized thinking that games are in a ghetto artistically the way comic books have been in the past.

For a closer analogue, you'd actually have to have the outline of a semi-boner visible through thin fabric at all times, for no reason other than "he breathes through his dick ok there are story reasons for this."

And this would have to be in a game where everything else is expected to be taken super seriously and has a AAA budget.

 

[Poutine Runner 2049]

I agree with OP for the most part.

Hyper sexualized female characters just make me uncomfortable. Quiet and Cindy are some of the worst possible examples there are.

Fortunately we're starting to get more and more well realized and non hyper sexualized females, especially from Bethesda who deserve to be commended. Emily in Dishonored 2, Billie Lurk in Death of the Outsider (black), Morgan Yu (asian) in Prey (even if its a choice and not the stereotypical twin stuff) plus Wolfenstein 2 recently.

 

[Aurica]

I'd disagree, as a guy reading through a boys love style manga aimed at women. The objectification and gaze is there and pretty vivid. It's immediately noticeable the same say I assume it is for women in reverse. This stuff simply isn't widespread by anymeans.

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And what is necessary in this Japanese genre fiction for the gaze to exist? Two men. No women. The position of power is still male. Just because objectification exists in niche fiction doesn't make it as prominent in society, nor does it create the same societal effects. Gender equality in Japan is quite low, and it dropped internationally 3 places just recently, so using it as an example seems fairly silly to me.

 

[Dice]

So to clarify, does the typical romance novel cover contain the stereotyped sexualized poses of men that women actually find sexually stimulating or are you saying that even those stereotyped male poses are an outgrowth of a masculine perspective on what women are supposed to find sexy?

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I'd argue women don't really care about the washboard abs. Good looks are a perk, I never felt we demanded it more than good looks are 'required' of women.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Imagine if Saving Private Ryan featured a handful of characters in clown make up. Everything else is the same. The story, the characters, the heartache, the violence, the storming the beach at Normandy, all of this is the same. But every so often, there's a clown. They solemnly make balloon animals, they get into spats with Tom Hanks about why Private Ryan is worth all of their lives, and their shoes squeak when they march. Sometimes a clown is the only one on screen and they juggle for a few seconds before the story moves forward.

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This sounds amazing honestly. It turns a boring straightforward war story into something more abstract and profound. Many essays would be written about the meaning of such scenes. Perhaps it's a commentary on how life is one big joke even in the most dire of circumstances. Perhaps Tom Hanks is just reminiscing about the horrors of war but getting it wrong after his mind has detoriated after living through it, turning a seemingly humorous narrative into something far more sinister.

And even if none of that was the intent, it's interesting to speculate. I feel the same way about certain depictions of sexualization in games that seem to have a greater purpose, even if the likely scenario is the developer is just one big horndog.

 

[HypedBeast]

This is amazing and...sorta sad that men grow up so accustomed to these sights and images and ideas that taking it away is indeed like trying to remove that big piece of the pie that you've always been served.

But it's time. Women want to be taken seriously, and constantly serving up these sights and images is a hinderance to our perception of women.

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I have to ask though, what big mainstream games do this that are not Japanese? If you dislike gratuitous sexualization, then western AAA has already moved away from that.
Like if I were to think this year in particular of big mainstream games that have a lot sexualization in them,it would be...
Nier Automata
Persona 5
Yakuza 0 (the hostess club)
ARMS(not much)
Injustice 2( kind of...)
Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2( not really mainstream to non fighting game players)
And that's about it, I guess I just don't see the huge deluge of oversexed characters lately.

 

[Gabe]

I'm not complaining about the ratings themselves (well, a little, but like I said, that's not the part I directed toward you), but that creators need to consider their audience. If you were invited into a middle school to do a presentation, are you going to include graphic sexual content? Absolutely not. If you're marketing your game to teens, should you put tits in it? Probably not. The problem is, game developers place these sexualized women and outfits in otherwise completely non-sexual environments and situations. These aren't the contexts in which you should also be injecting your weirdo ass obsession.

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I honestly don't know where i can find the energy to keep repeating that you have the right to criticize ALL OF THIS and that i will never stop you or anyone else from exercising said right.

It's also a bit silly to assume that game developers simply make their product then send it off to the ESRB blind. They know what rating they want and they design their game to fit that audience. Same deal for movies -- they know precisely how many swear words they can get away with in a PG-13 movie and they design that movie around their audience.

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I've never assumed they blindly send it to the ESRB, so i hope you can keep the "silly" remark out of this and let's keep it civil, thank you. 2018 will mark my 20th year in this industry, no assumptions here.
If the ESRB and PEGI are "gameable" (and yes: they absolutely are) that warrants a whole different conversation.

As has been stated, this is a dismissive argument. Games which treat women well are few and far between, unfortunately. If I'm not buying X game because it treats women like garbage, there's not necessarily another game for me to turn to, and therefore I don't buy a game at all. This is one of the (many) reasons women have a rough time being "gamers" or participating in gamer culture. It's also hard to feel out which games might have crappy portrayals of women before you actually purchase it and play a bit of it because, again, game developers inject their sexual fantasies into otherwise innocuous settings. Your statement is only a few steps away from "well, if you don't like how games treat women, don't play games."

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No, i'm not telling you that you shouldn't play games or that you shouldn't complain...i wonder if it's clear by now, because this is becoming borderline twilight zone.
What i'm saying is that you can protest and you can actually act on your beliefs by not supporting developers you disagree with. You can't say "they shouldn't be allowed to do this" , because unless it's against the law...you'll have to respect their freedom of expression (which doesn't mean you have to swallow their product and stay put, just that you both have the same exact rights).

Not buying games or not supporting games that treat women poorly would mean missing out on a number of AAA games, missing out on games that are otherwise fun to play, missing out on games that do other things really well.
This is a pervasive, unavoidable issue in gaming and it's not as simple as "well, complain about it!" or "just don't buy it." It requires thoughtfulness and action on the part of game developers to change their ways, the integration of more women in game development and design (who can tell these men to quit the nonsense), and, yes, sometimes begins with female gamers calling out these behaviors. Which we do. Often. And then men reply that we're being buzzkills or that we should just ignore it or that we shouldn't play the game.

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No arguments here, this is all valid criticism, which is very different from the "they shouldn't be allowed to do it!" sentiment.
Just a final note: i never said you shouldn't play the game, but for sure if you feel offended by a game you shouldn't give em money. I'm not saying this in a "let the grown ups play and fuck off", it just means that you have that option at your disposal as well as the right to complain, and money is often heard way louder than just the complaints.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Yep. I think to have a real analogue for objectification of men, the shirtless guy thing doesn't work. It's too tame and not completely focused on sexual aspects, since it's often used to illustrate the character's physical power and the image of shirtless dude also has other associations like hard work, etc.

It's missing some important stuff. Vulnerability, ridiculousness, and size-judgement of physical features as they relate to sexual attractiveness. There's also the cringe factor where it takes you out of the game or makes you not want to play it in public spaces because it's embarrassing and contributes to others who haven't been desensitized thinking that games are in a ghetto artistically the way comic books have been in the past.

For a closer analogue, you'd actually have to have the outline of a semi-boner visible through thin fabric at all times, for no reason other than "he breathes through his dick ok there are story reasons for this."

And this would have to be in a game where everything else is expected to be taken super seriously and has a AAA budget.

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There's a video touching on this that I linked to in the other thread:


For a direct example of this, a character likeNewt

 

[Laiza]

So to clarify, does the typical romance novel cover contain the stereotyped sexualized poses of men that women actually find sexually stimulating or are you saying that even those stereotyped male poses are an outgrowth of a masculine perspective on what women are supposed to find sexy?

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It's a bit of both. I can't say how much exactly anyone's perception of what is sexually attractive is molded by society, but I'm certain that a significant proportion of it is, and the fact that so many of the men on those romance covers are positioned as protectors is a definite outgrowth of the position society expects out of men and women.

 

[Principate]

And what is necessary in this Japanese genre fiction for the gaze to exist? Two men. No women. The position of power is still male. Just because objectification exists in niche fiction doesn't make it as prominent in society, nor does it create the same societal effects. Gender equality in Japan is quite low, and it dropped internationally 3 places just recently, so using it as an example seems fairly silly to me.

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It's not about position of power there, the dynamic there is litterally the same as two women. I'm not talking about societally, these are non existent people images in comic that exists for titilation. From lust whatever perspective there's no other way to look at it. I mean objectification has never been limited being something people in power can do from a position of power. objectification is objectification.

I mean there's plenty that also include women that involve them in a position of power. We're talking about erotic stories here.

 

[GrimBorne]

amazed at the number of men who feel the need to jump into this thread yelling BUT NOT ALL WOMEN FEEL THIS WAY! CHECKMATE!!! as though anecdotal evidence of one woman not having a problem with it means it's suddenly no longer an issue.

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It works both ways. Most "problematic" female characters are actually written and designed by women so it's obviously not an issue for them. You're trying to paint this topic as poor women vs MEN when it's actually random internet radical feminist vs women in the industry. They are a creative force in the industry and they deserve praise.

 

[Dust]

I have no problems with stuff like Dead or Alive X3, they are sexy girls on the beach, skimpy outfits are a given (just like in real life).
I hate shit like Quiet, when they try very hard to make character sexy and just create abomination that doesn't fit at all in the said game. Sniper Wolf was sexy but still looked like soldier and even had cleavage showing.

Basically, context and design matters, at least for me.

 

[Ketkat]

It works both ways. Most "problematic" female characters are actually written and designed by women so it's obviously not an issue for them. You're trying to paint this topic as poor women vs MEN when it's actually random internet radical feminist vs women in the industry. They are a creative force in the industry and they deserve praise.

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Can you show who these problematic characters are that are designed by women?

 

[Skitspel]

You mean people in a class where they were there to learn rather to get laid were focusing on learning rather to get laid?

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I'm sorry but that was not even close to a response in the lines of what I wrote, and also quite generalizing don't you think?

Nevermind.

 

[Deleted member 1273]

I have to ask though, what big mainstream games do this that are not Japanese? If you dislike gratuitous sexualization, then western AAA has already moved away from that.
Like if I were to think this year in particular of big mainstream games that have a lot sexualization in them,it would be...
Nier Automata
Persona 5
Yakuza 0 (the hostess club)
ARMS(not much)
Injustice 2( kind of...)
Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2( not really mainstream to non fighting game players)
And that's about it, I guess I just don't see the huge deluge of oversexed characters lately.

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Tekken 7

Nioh

Etrian Odyssey V

QUAKE CHAMPIONS

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And many
many more.

 

[anyprophet]

It works both ways. Most "problematic" female characters are actually written and designed by women so it's obviously not an issue for them. You're trying to paint this topic as poor women vs MEN when it's actually random internet radical feminist vs women in the industry. They are a creative force in the industry and they deserve praise.

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it's actually a structural problem with our society and not on any one person. threads like these are about recognizing and criticising the everyday sexism that most of us, women included, take for granted.

 

[Clix]

What if what women want is not to have the ability to objectify men for their tastes but rather not be objectified at all?

I am not a woman so I'm not saying that is what they want. I am saying you're approach works from the basis that since you enjoy sexualization in games for your tastes, we should give women the chance to do it. That works from the assumption that women want to do this.

Do you actually know if that's the case?

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The assumption is that plenty of women do. Just as how there are men who want nothing more in life than sex and scoring, there are plenty of women like that too. Hell even in my office as the only man in my department, I hear women objectify men too. The hypocrisy comes from society demonizing that behavior way more than it does for men.

And there are women who don't just want sex and scoring, but love the escapism of a good trash novel that does objectify a man or another woman. And there is nothing wrong with that.

But my approach does not work in the way that you think it does. My approach is that if a woman wants to do that in her game, she can. If she doesn't want to, she doesn't. Same for men. I want both men and women do do the content they want.

Now what we need is just more female developers outside of the indie scene also creating content. I am not saying ONLY create that. But a woman should be able to create it if she pleases, and I encourage it. Equal opportunity sexualization for all.

 

[Lime]

It comes down to if you don't like it than change it. More females need to be in game development. Also the director of god of war is a female. So let that sink in.

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If the Games industry wasn't so sexist and if there weren't so many misogynistic gamers, you would have a lot more women in games.

But because of how male gamers react to criticisms by women, such as "if you don't like it go make your own", it's hard to exist and feel even remotely included.

 

[Sawneeks]

Persephone once again making an incredibly on-point thread. Thank you for putting these together.

It works both ways. Most "problematic" female characters are actually written and designed by women so it's obviously not an issue for them. You're trying to paint this topic as poor women vs MEN when it's actually random internet radical feminist vs women in the industry. They are a creative force in the industry and they deserve praise.

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Would love some receipts on that by the way. Also good job of trying to entirely dismiss what OP was saying with the handwav-y 'random internet radical feminist' drive-by.

 

[DerpHause]

It may not cause an obvious, physical result. The problem is that the change is often more insidious and affects the lazy part of your brain that likes to immediately reaffirm things it already believes. For example: The thought experiment involving the child who gets in a car wreck with his dad, and the doctor says "I can't operate on him, he's my son". I have yet to meet a person who automatically is like, "Oh well duh, it's the mom!" Usually people are like, "Huh? What? How?" If you asked a person on their own, "Are there female doctors?", they would definitely say yes. But this experiment taps into the part of your brain that assumes and makes quick judgements, so unless you have a lot of experience with female doctors, the answer doesn't come to you right away because your brain equates "doctor" with "male".

How does this relate to videogames and other popular culture? Well, the more you see a specific gender in a certain role, the more you associate that role with that gender. You do this subconsciously. If you see ten male nurses and one female nurse, you can get the opposite effect. Your mind makes quick associations with what it's familiar with. So if you see 100 sexy women for every 1 "normal" one, the normal one is the one that feels weird, and to think that this does not extend beyond the media you consume isn't realistic. Yes, these are short, fleeting thoughts, but they are still thoughts and they build on themselves. Morrigan's picture of the "sexy dudes" is a perfect example of this.

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The core issue there appears to be gender/role association in the first place rather than the direction it may or may not be swayed in particular examples of media. Or at least that was my takeaway several years after being presented with that "riddle."

Also I'm not sure we've come to a point where a "normal" woman seems out of place in gaming. We still recognize those designs as wanting to stand out often even within the context of that fictional setting. Unless of course the context normalizes it somehow, but that doesn't seem typical of main characters.

Not seeing the issue with Morrigan's picture either, and that's as someone who has never searched for that type of thing, but rather because I'm familiar with the concept of fan sexualizing even cannon non-sexualized characters and assume if it's anything anyone is into it almost certainly exists.

 

[HypedBeast]

Tekken 7

Nioh

Etrian Odyssey V

QUAKE CHAMPIONS

And many
many more.

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I have to disagree with your Nioh example as there are a lot of good female designs in that game.

And for your Etrian Odyssey example, both male and female characters in that class are scantily clad, so that was a bad example.
But you can name some more, my point was that the ratio of non sexualized to sexualized characters has never been larger, so I thought that was a silly point for Dice to make.

 

[Pirate Bae]

I mean, shit. Even Overwatch does it. Côte d'Azur Widowmaker gets a pass because it's a beach design and she's in appropriate beach attire (McCree is the same, if we're talking male sexualization), but look at Witch Mercy. Cleavage, nothing on underneath that flap of loincloth or whatever it is, sexy smirk. They took a non-sexualized character (her base skin is super modest, girl's wearing a turtleneck for crying out loud) and turned her into a basic drunk college student trying to work a sexy Halloween costume.

I think the skin is very creative design-wise, but the butt flap is obvious pandering.

 

[Deleted member 1273]

It works both ways. Most "problematic" female characters are actually written and designed by women so it's obviously not an issue for them. You're trying to paint this topic as poor women vs MEN when it's actually random internet radical feminist vs women in the industry. They are a creative force in the industry and they deserve praise.

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inb4 "Well Bayonetta, a clear joke about over the top designs is actually a WOMAN'S design" receipt

I have to disagree with your Nioh example as there are a lot of good female designs in that game.

And for your Etrian Odyssey example, both male and female characters in that class are scantily clad, so that was a bad example.
But you can name some more, my point was that the ratio of non sexualized to sexualized characters has never been larger, so I thought that was a silly point for Dice to make.

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HypedBeast just posted "Yeah your post is wrong because out of 4 owns, I can get back one because there's a girl with armor in Nioh, even if there's a boss which introduction is her licking her own lips, also EOV is a bad example because the guy is showing pecs and the girl underboob, in my mind, both are equal"

Just got owned online :c

 

[Deleted member 1273]

double post

 

[DerpHause]

And for your Etrian Odyssey example, both male and female characters in that class are scantily clad, so that was a bad example.
But you can name some more, my point was that the ratio of non sexualized to sexualized characters has never been larger, so I thought that was a silly point for Dice to make.

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I've never played Etrian Odyssey, but from just what was posted it seems there is a clear disparity between the body types and poses of the males and females even with equivalent dress.

 

[Aurica]

It's not about position of power there, the dynamic there is litterally the same as two women. I'm not talking about societally, these are non existent people images in comic that exists for titilation. From lust whatever perspective there's no other way to look at it. I mean objectification has never been limited being something people in power can do from a position of power. objectification is objectification.

I mean there's plenty that also include women that involve them in a position of power. We're talking about erotic stories here.

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Okay, I don't think this thread is about erotic stories, though. If you think women's depiction in media has no effect on society, then I'm not sure what we're talking about here. If you just wanted to make the point that objectifying males is possible, I'm not going to argue with you. Does it have the same ramifications for society, though? Absolutely not.

The dynamic is not "literally" the same, though, between two men for women's pleasure and two women for men's pleasure. It's really not. The viewership is completely different, and the depiction of their sexuality is not at all the same.

 

[perfectchaos007]

I agree with the OP in that there needs to be equality among the designs. If all the male warriors in a game are heavily armored head to toe, then its weird for the female warriors to have exposed torso's and legs. But, there is also a time and place for female and male characters to show more skin. A volleyball game like DOAX I have no issue with the women in that game being scantily clad, because everyone is scantily clad when they play beach volleyball irl. That game was one of my sisters favorite video games growing up, I remember she loved the aspect of buying new bikinis/outfits for her character. I never bought the game but my sister asked me to buy it for her so she could play it on my Xbox. She was first introduced to that game at her friends house

 

[Elshoelace]

This sounds amazing honestly. It turns a boring straightforward war story into something more abstract and profound. Many essays would be written about the meaning of such scenes. Perhaps it's a commentary on how life is one big joke even in the most dire of circumstances. Perhaps Tom Hanks is just reminiscing about the horrors of war but getting it wrong after his mind has detoriated after living through it, turning a seemingly humorous narrative into something far more sinister.

And even if none of that was the intent, it's interesting to speculate. I feel the same way about certain depictions of sexualization in games that seem to have a greater purpose, even if the likely scenario is the developer is just one big horndog.

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I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not...
You know perhaps you are right and we can have a discourse on the greater purpose and profoundness of over-sexualized characters like Quiet and what the creator is trying to say with her lack of clothes on a battlefield. Maybe Kojima is trying to tell us something real deep here. Or you know people could just quit BSing themselves in trying to justify it. As a guy I feel bothered by these characters and never used Quiet in my playthrough because it is just dumb how she is designed and frankly gross that she is treated as some object through the game. Which she is obviously developed that way especially when you get back to the base and your told "Hey boss let's go check out where we are holding her and when we get there she's gonna take a shower in front of us". Or you get in the helicopter with her and it's like oh let me just stick my butt right in front of you to stare at. It's just ridiculous.

This thread has been rather depressing with so many comments from dudes saying "yea well I know women who don't mind so it's not a problem then". Guys it's not your place to tell a woman how they should feel or that it isn't a problem on the topic they made that they find concerning.

 

[MaskedNdi]

So, for clarity. Is the issue the fact that oversexualized designs exist at all? Or is it the ubiquity? If it's the former, I think it's valid that people (especially women) have different opinions on the subject. If the latter, I 100% agree that it shouldn't be quite so common.

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It's perfectly valid if women want to offer their own opinions on the subject, but men saying "this one woman I know said it's fine" are adding nothing to the conversation. There's no insight to be found there; they're using their interpretation of another person's feelings as a shield.

It works both ways. Most "problematic" female characters are actually written and designed by women so it's obviously not an issue for them. You're trying to paint this topic as poor women vs MEN when it's actually random internet radical feminist vs women in the industry. They are a creative force in the industry and they deserve praise.

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Ah, yes. Once again, it's all women's fault.

 

[Fauxpaw]

The core issue there appears to be gender/role association in the first place rather than the direction it may or may not be swayed in particular examples of media. Or at least that was my takeaway several years after being presented with that "riddle."

Also I'm not sure we've come to a point where a "normal" woman seems out of place in gaming. We still recognize those designs as wanting to stand out often even within the context of that fictional setting. Unless of course the context normalizes it somehow, but that doesn't seem typical of main characters.

Not seeing the issue with Morrigan's picture either, and that's as someone who has never searched for that type of thing, but rather because I'm familiar with the concept of fan sexualizing even cannon non-sexualized characters and assume if it's anything anyone is into it almost certainly exists.

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If we had more movies, television, and game representations of female doctors, I would guess that that riddle would be a lot less vexxing for people, because they would be used to the association.

And oh man, the amount of threads where normal looking ladies are dragged through the dirt as being "purposefully uggo'd". The most famous example is probably Mass Effect's PeeBee. Another example I can think of was the final design for Alloy in Horizon.

A fandom sexualizing a character does not equal that character getting sexualized in the actual game they are in. Otherwise people would find Sonic fanart totes normal.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

I'd argue women don't really care about the washboard abs. Good looks are a perk, I never felt we demanded it more than good looks are 'required' of women.

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It's a bit of both. I can't say how much exactly anyone's perception of what is sexually attractive is molded by society, but I'm certain that a significant proportion of it is, and the fact that so many of the men on those romance covers are positioned as protectors is a definite outgrowth of the position society expects out of men and women.

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What about male strippers and the stereotypes associated with them? Do women really think they are sexy or is it more of a novelty/amusement thing? Because outside of romance novel covers, I can't think of any other sexualized male pose stereotype that is as targeted at straight women as those that male strippers engage in.

 

[Persephone]

This is tangential but can we please stop referring to women as "females"? It's dehumanising.

 

[Aske]

I agree with OP for the most part.

Hyper sexualized female characters just make me uncomfortable. Quiet and Cindy are some of the worst possible examples there are.

Fortunately we're starting to get more and more well realized and non hyper sexualized females, especially from Bethesda who deserve to be commended. Emily in Dishonored 2, Billie Lurk in Death of the Outsider (black), Morgan Yu (asian) in Prey (even if its a choice and not the stereotypical twin stuff) plus Wolfenstein 2 recently.

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The thing that really gets to me is seeing a character used in a way that doesn't gel with who they are.

I'd have less of an issue with seeing a comic cover showing Wonder Woman in a bikini on a beach (think Greg Horn - an image crafted primarily to titillate) than I would seeing her portrayed with a vacuous expression on her face, or tied up in her own lasso (that old chestnut always makes me want to vomit).

Not to say I'd necessarily be happy about the first cover, but depending on the context, I have no issue with an artist choosing to view the character through the eyes of, say, a horny teenager. That's because that kind of cheesecake doesn't touch Diana: who she is, what she does, her strengths or weaknesses.

None of that is to say that objectification isn't an issue in and of itself, but the sexualisation of a character is so much more egregious when the way they dress, move, think, or act is dictated not by their value to a story, but by their value as a sexy doll the creator can play with while telling a story.

 

[Dorfdad]

As a male gamer to see the transition from pixels to porn in gaming characters it's crazy! As a heterosexual male I find it odd seeing women with breasts and ass popping out of their clothing in gaming. It's obnoxious and creepy sometimes subtle sexuality overtures is more effective. Why the hell do characters in Metal Gear have plastic waxed onto their bodies? Why are women who in games with combat wearing thongs? Developers are resorting to the lowest level of creativity trying to lure kids to their games with perversion. I'm not a prude trust me but I agree with the OP and feel for the women and girls out there trying to enjoy a game and seeing females as nothing but sex dolls.

 

[HypedBeast]

inb4 "Well Bayonetta, a clear joke about over the top designs is actually a WOMAN'S design" receipt


HypedBeast just posted "Yeah your post is wrong because out of 4 I owns, I can get back one because there's a girl with armor in Nioh, even if there's a boss which introduction is her licking her own lips, also EOV is a bad example because the guy is showing pecs and the girl underboob, in my mind, both are equal"

Just got owned online :c

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Im not saying your post is wrong man, its my opinion. You need to stop beong so defensive, I didnt "own" you, I don't carr about winning some petty argument.
I just want to know why even considering the examples we both mentioned, why is having examples of sexualized women( some of those characters like Twintelle and 2B being really good designs) a bad thing, when the industry as a while has been moving away from those designs. I thought that's what you would have wanted, a higher ratio of non sexualized designs to sexualized.

 

[Principate]

Okay, I don't think this thread is about erotic stories, though. If you think women's depiction in media has no effect on society, then I'm not sure what we're talking about here. If you just wanted to make the point that objectifying males is possible, I'm not going to argue with you. Does it have the same ramifications for society, though? Absolutely not.

The dynamic is not "literally" the same, though, between two men for women's pleasure and two women for men's pleasure. It's really not. The viewership is completely different, and the depiction of their sexuality is not at all the same.

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Yeah that's not what I'm talking about. I'm simply arguing woman can "objectify" men much like you can objectfy all sorts of things not that it has any negative impact on society the way the opposite does. Simply an observation. Just largely that sexual instincts are sexual instincts.

The dynamics are the same in that these are two fictional characters acting according to the others authors thoughts purely for the sake of titilation.

 

[ShyMel]

I'd disagree, as a guy reading through a boys love style manga aimed at women. The objectification and gaze is there and pretty vivid. It's immediately noticeable the same say I assume it is for women in reverse. This stuff simply isn't widespread by anymeans.

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I would argue the objectification in this example is more based on making homosexuality palatable/enjoyable for a heterosexual audience.

 

[PogiJones]

I'm amazed at the number of men who feel the need to jump into this thread yelling BUT NOT ALL WOMEN FEEL THIS WAY! CHECKMATE!!! as though anecdotal evidence of one woman not having a problem with it means it's suddenly no longer an issue.

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Let me preface this by saying I agree with you that there needs to be less sexualization in games.

I think the reason people bring this up is because your thread title has you speaking for women, when it's only you for whom you speak. Then when people bring up other women who disagree, you say (rightfully) that they don't speak for women, only themselves. Neither do you, is their point. And your thread title suggests you do.

 

[Aurica]

Just largely that sexual instincts are sexual instincts.

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Yes, both sexes can do this.

 

[Renna Hazel]

While over-sexualised characters don't bother me much, I would prefer it not happen. As is, it's just something in a game that I normally laugh off because of how ridiculous it can be at times. I'd still prefer attractive characters to unattractive ones, but they should all be wearing the appropriate attire, or just something that looks cool.

 

[Pet]

I'm not talking about women in videogame message boards, i'm talking about women in real life.

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Maybe none of us say anything to you because we don't see the point of talking about this stuff in real life to people we don't know very well.

The point is
Clearly women, many women, als love sex and male domination in entertainment
As proven bij 50 shades of grey
That why I said that

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What the flying fuck?

As the poster who wrote the whole goddamm BDSM post of the Kinky OT ERA thread we have on this forum...

what the fuck.

No, no, no.

There is a difference between it being a choice and it being forced on you. 50 Shades is smut intended to be smut. It's the choice of the reader to pick up the smut and enjoy the smut.

MGS is not smut. It is an action adventure spy game. Is MGS the type of videogame intended to be smut? (No, it's not. I own one of those videogames that's basically just porn.) If not, your comparison is invalid.

There's a lot of discourse in feminist and critical analysis spaces regarding what the female gaze would look like if it can exist at all. Laura Mulvey's "Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema" is a touchstone text in this consideration; it should be fairly easy to find online. It's been some time since I read it but, if my memory serves, I think she more or less implies that it's impossible for a female gaze to exist as the male does because women lack the power to impose that gaze. In the context of this discussion, women do not sexualize or objectify men in the same pervasive, socially-condoned, universal ways that men do women. There's no parallel to the breasts or ass on the male body; one could maybe argue the penis is, simply because it is genitalia, but even then, it's frequently a symbol of male power and domination.

It's difficult to establish a female gaze when women lack the institutional power to create and implement it in works of media.

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*kudos

I'd disagree, as a guy reading through a boys love style manga aimed at women. The objectification and gaze is there and pretty vivid. It's immediately noticeable the same say I assume it is for women in reverse. This stuff simply isn't widespread by anymeans.

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I was about to answer you, but Aizo did a better job so I'd like to just quote them and implore you to consider what is written.

And what is necessary in this Japanese genre fiction for the gaze to exist? Two men. No women. The position of power is still male. Just because objectification exists in niche fiction doesn't make it as prominent in society, nor does it create the same societal effects. Gender equality in Japan is quite low, and it dropped internationally 3 places just recently, so using it as an example seems fairly silly to me.

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[Deleted member 1273]

Sigh.

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Because your post is a false premise; you are bottlenecking the pool of examples by saying games that you know about it, this year we got Fates/GO, a big mobile game, isn't that game full of sexist crap? Also GBF? Or pretty much any gatcha game? Sure, some games have moved on from that. but you must consider all the stuff before saying such argument.

This year we got not one but TWO schoolgirl games in big consoles with breaking clothes.

The problem is as big as always, by reducing the scope the way you want, you will get, of course, the reply you want, but if you look at the whole picture, the problem is still there.