Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."

[steejee]

FFXIV's supporting cast is about 50/50 at this point. For the NPC trusts (the thing that let you do dungeons with NPCs) you have Thancred, Urianger, and Alphinaud for the men (plus a spoilery new guy), and Y'shtola (White/Black Mage), Alisae (Red Mage w/ rapier), and Ryne (Ninja?? No idea if she'll be in future expansions though) for the women. Plus Krile and Tataru as regular supporting characters. Pretty much all of them are treated respectably from what I've seen, with their own motivations, flaws, and personalities. The only real controversial one I can think of is Minfilia.

It expands even more if you count side characters who always have a chance of randomly showing up in the future (Merlwyb, Yugiri, Lyna, Lyse, Jessie, Dulia Chai, and way more besides). Pretty much all of the content, whether it be a raid series or a main quest line, involves a major female character providing input.

Also Lyna should take over Fran to be the iconic Viera of the franchise tbqh

The CG stuff is a shame for sure, though. Especially when I can't imagine "male human caucasian hume" is the most common race from their player data. I guess they figure they're in too deep now to change him out (that and he has vague lore connections, sort of)

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I loved Lyna, do wish she had more of a presence in Shadowbringers - she sorta faded into the background after a bit. I was hoping she'd act more as a core member of the storyline, like as the Exarch's liason or something. With the way she's introduced and especially since she's one of the expansion races it led me to think she'd be hugely important, but nope.

Minfilia and Yda in ARR sorta put me off from the outset - Yda's absurd pants (and how she's framed if doing the Gradania path) and whatever the hell Minfilia was wearing and whatever they did to her breasts. There was a solid evolution of far-less-awful outfits from HW forward on whole, even if it's a rather imperfect evolution.

I honestly disagree. Don't get me wrong, FFXIV's female representation is decent, and it certainly looks pretty good when compared to a lot of other video games (and especially MMOs, not naming any names at all,) out there, but it could really be improved upon and it's honestly one of my main complaints throughout every single expansion so far.

FFXIV's cast of characters is gigantic, and there's a good amount of female characters in the game, but an overwhelming amount of major story characters are male. Every Ascian is male, every villain from the empire is male except for the one female commander under Gaius whose name I don't remember and who dies immediately, and Yotsuyu who gets killed off while every single male villain surrounding her that's died has gotten resurrected. Heavensward is a complete sausagefest except for Ysayle who's constantly given shit by Estinien and the narrative and then also dies without fanfare or ceremony while Haurchefant get a billion tributes to his death. Shadowbringers is all about the Exarch, Ardbert and Emet-Selch, the one major plot-important female character is Ryne (who I love, who is my precious daughter, who I am standing in the background and cheering on in hopes that she will get together with her goth gamer gf Gaia soon) who's a plot device and constantly accompanied by Thancred's shitty dad behavior. Stormblood is probably the best about this, with Lyse, Yugiri, Yotsuyu with all her caveats, and I guess Fordola who I actually forgot about until halfway through writing this post even though I love her because she is so underutilized in the story. I just personally have a bunch of complaints about Lyse's writing, and I still desperately want to see a female villain who isn't a henchman stepping stone for the real important male villains.

The Scions, the reoccurring party members, are the one group of characters I'd probably compliment in this regard, with the exception of Moenbryda who I probably don't need to explain. But the expansion storylines could be much better. I do love Lyna a lot as well, but I personally wouldn't really advertise her as an important standout female character, she's functionally just the bodyguard of a far more important and story-centric male character.

This post probably comes across as more argumentative than I mean it to be, FFXIV's female representation really is okay, but it still has a lot of room for improvement. Of course, the female representation is also a nonissue compared to other things like FFXIV's bipoc representation, but it's still something that's regularly bothered me. Basically, I'm just saying that there really is a good amount of female characters overall, but the main storyline importance and screentime often goes to male characters, and there are some egregious examples of female characters being sidelined or outright disrespected in the story.

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Kinda agree with both of you I suppose. FFXIV is better than any MMO I can think of (and far better than most JRPGs), but storyline still feels male focused. I think my perception helps in that I play a Viera, so it always feels like the storyline is centering around a woman by default as the WoL/WoD. I'll give FFXIV a bit of a break in that stuff like the Ascians being all male does trace back to ARR decisions. Though I still get pissed anytime I do Meridium and do the Livia fight and get a reminder the only female general in ARR is basically an abused child who is Gaius' bed warmer and gets no real development beyond that. Meanwhile

Spoiler

Gaius comes back from the dead for what seems like is framed as a redemption arc with very token reminders of all the horrid things he did

.

I hate their defacto WoL bland male human dude in all the videos and am crossing my fingers the villains set up at the end of 5.3 aren't actually going to be the villains of 6.X, cause uuuuuuuuuuuuuughhhhh.

 

[PaperSparrow]

There's nothing wrong with being gay though. Holy shit some people have a narrow view point.

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People can not see outside of their modern lens and bias for these things.

There's no reason homophobia has to exist in a fictional universe. There's no reason oversexualization of women has to be a genre staple of cyberpunk. There's no reason for white people to be 99% of a fictional "historical" population.

The only reason is "I say so".

 

[Jaded Photographer]

People can not see outside of their modern lens and bias for these things.

There's no reason homophobia has to exist in a fictional universe. There's no reason oversexualization of women has to be a genre staple of cyberpunk. There's no reason for white people to be 99% of a fictional "historical" population.

The only reason is "I say so".

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I for example would have no problem with a black protagonist as long as they don't adhere to a bunch of outdated stereotypes. GTA V pissed me off for that exact reason. I am very tired of over sexualization of women and I'm a guy. I know where to find porn, I don't need softcore porn in my video games.

 

[Timu]

What a gang!

 

[Famassu]

That critique of capitalistic exploitation of women's looks! I'm sure it will be deeper than surface-level, I'm sure of it!

 

[Dice]

What a gang!

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It's like slutty/murdery cyberpunk version of Jem and the Holograms.
....I know there's some dude out there who's gonna think this is empowering women lol

Anyways. While I'm still eager to see a AAA game do cyberpunk, and while I do think I've seen awesome/crazy elements from the game (that indeed target both sexes).... I also have no doubt gamer/fratboy mentality is also leading the charge on the designs for the majority of it.

My bar is kinda low the more I see.
But since I know the game will have strippers, I just hope they can do better than Detroit's attempt at male striptease:

 

[Jaded Photographer]

What a gang!

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Does the city this game takes place in have a temperature regulated ecosystem or something? They look fucking cold.

 

[Timu]

It's like slutty/murdery cyberpunk Jem and the Holograms.

....I know there's some dude out there who's gonna think this is empowering women lol

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Ha, ha, pretty much.

And I don't find this appealing TBH.

 

[AuthenticM]

Hi

Regarding the thread title "her ass is part of her character", is this something that someone here actually said to defend a character's design? (I'm going to guess: Cammy?)

 

[Timu]

Does the city this game takes place in have a temperature regulated ecosystem or something? They look fucking cold.

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I wonder about that too. Yeah it seems that way.

 

[Jaded Photographer]

I wonder about that too. Yeah it seems that way.

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Still not even an excuse, the black one is about as non nude as they can get away with regarding the ESRB rating.

 

[Timu]

Still not even an excuse, the black one is about as non nude as they can get away with regarding the ESRB rating.

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Oh yeah, that's true.

 

[Morrigan]

Hi

Regarding the thread title "her ass is part of her character", is this something that someone here actually said to defend a character's design? (I'm going to guess: Cammy?)

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Yes

 

[misho8723]

What a gang!

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Oh come on.. so now you're criticizing that members of a gang of prostitutes look like prostitutes or something?

Moxes : Formed in 2076 after the death of Elizabeth "Lizzie" Borden, a strip club owner & ex-prostitute who treated her workers fairly and defended them from violent clients, The Moxes refer to themselves as "those who protect working girls and guys" from violence and abuse.
There are atleast 9 gangs in the game and one of them are the Moxes - they are relatively small, non-territorial, and consist of of mostly sexworkers, anarchists, punks, and sexual minorities. Formed in 2067 in the interest of mutual self-defense purposes, their name comes from the old slang term "moxie," denoting their determination to stand up against their oppressors. Some members, especially those who focus on combat, have heavily modified bodies that sometimes evoke a "plastic doll" style, but may also be disguised with Realskinn - the most expensive option of covering "skin", a flexible plastic that looks very much like skin with follicles, hairs, small scars and imperfections, and has a 75% chance of passing as a "meat" limb to all but the closest inspection.

I mean, there are going to be a ton of female characters in the game and that there is a gang of prostitutes that defends other sexworkers from abuse, I just don't see a problem atleast with this or in this case

 

[Persephone]

Oh come on.. so now you're criticizing that members of a gang of prostitutes look like prostitutes or something?

Moxes : Formed in 2076 after the death of Elizabeth "Lizzie" Borden, a strip club owner & ex-prostitute who treated her workers fairly and defended them from violent clients, The Moxes refer to themselves as "those who protect working girls and guys" from violence and abuse.
There are atleast 9 gangs in the game and one of them are the Moxes - they are relatively small, non-territorial, and consist of of mostly sexworkers, anarchists, punks, and sexual minorities. Formed in 2067 in the interest of mutual self-defense purposes, their name comes from the old slang term "moxie," denoting their determination to stand up against their oppressors. Some members, especially those who focus on combat, have heavily modified bodies that sometimes evoke a "plastic doll" style, but may also be disguised with Realskinn - the most expensive option of covering "skin", a flexible plastic that looks very much like skin with follicles, hairs, small scars and imperfections, and has a 75% chance of passing as a "meat" limb to all but the closest inspection.

I mean, there are going to be a ton of female characters in the game and that there is a gang of prostitutes that defends other sexworkers from abuse, I just don't see a problem atleast with this or in this case

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uuuuuuggggghhhhhhhhhhh

 

[Tommi]

My bar is kinda low the more I see.
But since I know the game will have strippers, I just hope they can do better than Detroit's attempt at male striptease:

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It's weird how this is still passed around. If you played the game, you would know that that's not representative of the game at all. You have a point though, I agree

 

[Dice]

It's weird how this is still passed around. If you played the game, you would know that that's not representative of the game at all. You have a point though, I agree

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I played the game. It's....not good with its central message/s, but it's fine dumb fun (like most of David Cage's games).

 

[Deleted member 16876]

Oh come on.. so now you're criticizing that members of a gang of prostitutes look like prostitutes or something?

Moxes : Formed in 2076 after the death of Elizabeth "Lizzie" Borden, a strip club owner & ex-prostitute who treated her workers fairly and defended them from violent clients, The Moxes refer to themselves as "those who protect working girls and guys" from violence and abuse.
There are atleast 9 gangs in the game and one of them are the Moxes - they are relatively small, non-territorial, and consist of of mostly sexworkers, anarchists, punks, and sexual minorities. Formed in 2067 in the interest of mutual self-defense purposes, their name comes from the old slang term "moxie," denoting their determination to stand up against their oppressors. Some members, especially those who focus on combat, have heavily modified bodies that sometimes evoke a "plastic doll" style, but may also be disguised with Realskinn - the most expensive option of covering "skin", a flexible plastic that looks very much like skin with follicles, hairs, small scars and imperfections, and has a 75% chance of passing as a "meat" limb to all but the closest inspection.

I mean, there are going to be a ton of female characters in the game and that there is a gang of prostitutes that defends other sexworkers from abuse, I just don't see a problem atleast with this or in this case

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Is this you reading the OP?

Cause if you haven't read it then I suggest you do so. For your sake and others.

 

[purseowner]

Oh come on.. so now you're criticizing that members of a gang of prostitutes look like prostitutes or something?

Moxes : Formed in 2076 after the death of Elizabeth "Lizzie" Borden, a strip club owner & ex-prostitute who treated her workers fairly and defended them from violent clients, The Moxes refer to themselves as "those who protect working girls and guys" from violence and abuse.
There are atleast 9 gangs in the game and one of them are the Moxes - they are relatively small, non-territorial, and consist of of mostly sexworkers, anarchists, punks, and sexual minorities. Formed in 2067 in the interest of mutual self-defense purposes, their name comes from the old slang term "moxie," denoting their determination to stand up against their oppressors. Some members, especially those who focus on combat, have heavily modified bodies that sometimes evoke a "plastic doll" style, but may also be disguised with Realskinn - the most expensive option of covering "skin", a flexible plastic that looks very much like skin with follicles, hairs, small scars and imperfections, and has a 75% chance of passing as a "meat" limb to all but the closest inspection.

I mean, there are going to be a ton of female characters in the game and that there is a gang of prostitutes that defends other sexworkers from abuse, I just don't see a problem atleast with this or in this case

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Actually, judging from this the main problem here is that the writing seems terrible.

 

[Bit_Reactor]

I loved Lyna, do wish she had more of a presence in Shadowbringers - she sorta faded into the background after a bit. I was hoping she'd act more as a core member of the storyline, like as the Exarch's liason or something. With the way she's introduced and especially since she's one of the expansion races it led me to think she'd be hugely important, but nope.

Minfilia and Yda in ARR sorta put me off from the outset - Yda's absurd pants (and how she's framed if doing the Gradania path) and whatever the hell Minfilia was wearing and whatever they did to her breasts. There was a solid evolution of far-less-awful outfits from HW forward on whole, even if it's a rather imperfect evolution.



Kinda agree with both of you I suppose. FFXIV is better than any MMO I can think of (and far better than most JRPGs), but storyline still feels male focused. I think my perception helps in that I play a Viera, so it always feels like the storyline is centering around a woman by default as the WoL/WoD. I'll give FFXIV a bit of a break in that stuff like the Ascians being all male does trace back to ARR decisions. Though I still get pissed anytime I do Meridium and do the Livia fight and get a reminder the only female general in ARR is basically an abused child who is Gaius' bed warmer and gets no real development beyond that. Meanwhile

Spoiler

Gaius comes back from the dead for what seems like is framed as a redemption arc with very token reminders of all the horrid things he did

.

I hate their defacto WoL bland male human dude in all the videos and am crossing my fingers the villains set up at the end of 5.3 aren't actually going to be the villains of 6.X, cause uuuuuuuuuuuuuughhhhh.

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My relationship with FFXIV is 90% positive with a bit of skepticism based on the points you and your quoted posts bring up.

Ysayle getting killed and never brought up, Yotsuyu whose single boss fight was more interesting than all the patches dealing with her, and Fordola who should be a main character moving forward in my mind.

Fordola having the "fake" power she has and the scene with her and the WoL was one of my favorite scenes in the game because the concept of someone seeing everything the WoL has been through is always interesting when it's shown. Things like Fray are great in this regard because it allows the writers to direct a microscope at the shit that the WoL is expected to do on a daily basis and it really brings it up in a cool way, not to mention her character looks pretty cool and her story was one of the few compelling points of the ala mhigo plot.

If I had to choose I'd want Her, Estinien, and Gaius in the Trust system in the next expac but we'll see what happens.

On the subject of representation I think Yshtola, Ryne, and Alisaie are consistently better characters than their male counterparts and while it doesn't make up for some of the worst stuff in the game, it definitely makes me happy that Alisaie has gotten a tremendous amount of development in SB and ShB that isn't tied to "am girl."

To add to that, while it was a shame, I remember reading the reason Yugiri got shoved to the background (which bummed me out because I liked her) was because her VA died/was murdered, and I think they just hesitated to do too much with her out of disrespecting the dead VA. That doesn't mean they couldn't recast and bring her back, but I understand why that was kind of a weird situation to be in from a development standpoint. Her relationship with Hien sucked though no joke.

Lyna, Ryne, Yshtola, Matoya, Alisaie, and others while having the benefit of more "time" due to it being an MMO are still leagues above most common representation in the genre. I can understand wanting more but I can also look at the characters like Alisaie and go "this is what the bare minimum should be"

EDIT: Not to mention the Dwarf storyline, the Warriors of Light of the First, etc all have well rounded female characters as well, and normally all the job quests have good female character representation as well. And there's also that (half?)elf girl from HW that shows up in the MCH quests whose name is eluding me at the moment.

 

[Timu]

Oh come on.. so now you're criticizing that members of a gang of prostitutes look like prostitutes or something?

Moxes : Formed in 2076 after the death of Elizabeth "Lizzie" Borden, a strip club owner & ex-prostitute who treated her workers fairly and defended them from violent clients, The Moxes refer to themselves as "those who protect working girls and guys" from violence and abuse.
There are atleast 9 gangs in the game and one of them are the Moxes - they are relatively small, non-territorial, and consist of of mostly sexworkers, anarchists, punks, and sexual minorities. Formed in 2067 in the interest of mutual self-defense purposes, their name comes from the old slang term "moxie," denoting their determination to stand up against their oppressors. Some members, especially those who focus on combat, have heavily modified bodies that sometimes evoke a "plastic doll" style, but may also be disguised with Realskinn - the most expensive option of covering "skin", a flexible plastic that looks very much like skin with follicles, hairs, small scars and imperfections, and has a 75% chance of passing as a "meat" limb to all but the closest inspection.

I mean, there are going to be a ton of female characters in the game and that there is a gang of prostitutes that defends other sexworkers from abuse, I just don't see a problem atleast with this or in this case

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Uh, what?

 

[Dice]

Oh come on.. so now you're criticizing that members of a gang of prostitutes look like prostitutes or something?

Moxes : Formed in 2076 after the death of Elizabeth "Lizzie" Borden, a strip club owner & ex-prostitute who treated her workers fairly and defended them from violent clients, The Moxes refer to themselves as "those who protect working girls and guys" from violence and abuse.
There are atleast 9 gangs in the game and one of them are the Moxes - they are relatively small, non-territorial, and consist of of mostly sexworkers, anarchists, punks, and sexual minorities. Formed in 2067 in the interest of mutual self-defense purposes, their name comes from the old slang term "moxie," denoting their determination to stand up against their oppressors. Some members, especially those who focus on combat, have heavily modified bodies that sometimes evoke a "plastic doll" style, but may also be disguised with Realskinn - the most expensive option of covering "skin", a flexible plastic that looks very much like skin with follicles, hairs, small scars and imperfections, and has a 75% chance of passing as a "meat" limb to all but the closest inspection.

I mean, there are going to be a ton of female characters in the game and that there is a gang of prostitutes that defends other sexworkers from abuse, I just don't see a problem atleast with this or in this case

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I, too, wear a combat bikini.

 

[Shining Star]

Oh come on.. so now you're criticizing that members of a gang of prostitutes look like prostitutes or something?

Moxes : Formed in 2076 after the death of Elizabeth "Lizzie" Borden, a strip club owner & ex-prostitute who treated her workers fairly and defended them from violent clients, The Moxes refer to themselves as "those who protect working girls and guys" from violence and abuse.
There are atleast 9 gangs in the game and one of them are the Moxes - they are relatively small, non-territorial, and consist of of mostly sexworkers, anarchists, punks, and sexual minorities. Formed in 2067 in the interest of mutual self-defense purposes, their name comes from the old slang term "moxie," denoting their determination to stand up against their oppressors. Some members, especially those who focus on combat, have heavily modified bodies that sometimes evoke a "plastic doll" style, but may also be disguised with Realskinn - the most expensive option of covering "skin", a flexible plastic that looks very much like skin with follicles, hairs, small scars and imperfections, and has a 75% chance of passing as a "meat" limb to all but the closest inspection.

I mean, there are going to be a ton of female characters in the game and that there is a gang of prostitutes that defends other sexworkers from abuse, I just don't see a problem atleast with this or in this case

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Yeah super cool that the game is managing to represent...prostitutes.

 

[Rotobit]

I played the game. It's....not good with its central message/s, but it's fine dumb fun (like most of David Cage's games).

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I always "enjoyed" David Cage games because of their hammy qualities. I actually traded in the copy of GTAV I got within a week for Beyond: Two Souls. That game's terrible too, but I don't regret the decision at all because boy was it a more enjoyable ride.

After all those Quantic Dream allegations came out though it became a lot less endearing and more uncomfortable. That combined with Detroit mimicking civil rights movements while the people behind it called it "non-political" and yeah, I'm done with 'em.

At least his games are perfect case studies for how not to write women (the three types are sex object, mother figure, or child).

Oh and as an aside the most frustrating defense in that Cyberpunk thread is "the tabletop RPG did it". When 2077 has already updated the time frame, the fashion, and the technology, there's nothing stopping it from updating the rest of the world.

 

[ShyMel]

I am guessing that the owner's name is a reference to the actual Lizzie Borden, which eh not really sure if that was a good idea.

 

[Dice]

I always "enjoyed" David Cage games because of their hammy qualities. I actually traded in the copy of GTAV I got within a week for Beyond: Two Souls. That game's terrible too, but I don't regret the decision at all because boy was it a more enjoyable ride.

After all those Quantic Dream allegations came out though it became a lot less endearing and more uncomfortable. That combined with Detroit mimicking civil rights movements while the people behind it called it "non-political" and yeah, I'm done with 'em.

At least his games are perfect case studies for how not to write women (the three types are sex object, mother figure, or child).

Oh and as an aside the most frustrating defense in that Cyberpunk thread is "the tabletop RPG did it". When 2077 has already updated the time frame, the fashion, and the technology, there's nothing stopping it from updating the rest of the world.

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lol literally saw Woolie's succinct reation video to this a week ago. xD

 

[Famassu]

Oh come on.. so now you're criticizing that members of a gang of prostitutes look like prostitutes or something?

Moxes : Formed in 2076 after the death of Elizabeth "Lizzie" Borden, a strip club owner & ex-prostitute who treated her workers fairly and defended them from violent clients, The Moxes refer to themselves as "those who protect working girls and guys" from violence and abuse.
There are atleast 9 gangs in the game and one of them are the Moxes - they are relatively small, non-territorial, and consist of of mostly sexworkers, anarchists, punks, and sexual minorities. Formed in 2067 in the interest of mutual self-defense purposes, their name comes from the old slang term "moxie," denoting their determination to stand up against their oppressors. Some members, especially those who focus on combat, have heavily modified bodies that sometimes evoke a "plastic doll" style, but may also be disguised with Realskinn - the most expensive option of covering "skin", a flexible plastic that looks very much like skin with follicles, hairs, small scars and imperfections, and has a 75% chance of passing as a "meat" limb to all but the closest inspection.

I mean, there are going to be a ton of female characters in the game and that there is a gang of prostitutes that defends other sexworkers from abuse, I just don't see a problem atleast with this or in this case

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Being protectors of prostitutes requires dressing half-naked because of... why? Wouldn't they be better able to protect prostitutes if they had some protective gear?

 

[CaptainKashup]

What a gang!

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This looks like a weird fetishist Second Life screenshot.
Also what the fuck is going on with that black lady, is she made out of lube ?

 

[Bit_Reactor]

Honestly, the most tiresome part of Final Fantasy XIV is how it handles gear. Like the Neo-Ishdardian set, which is straight bullshit.


Like, I love the shit out of this game, but I'm 90% sure that if you were ask them why they do things like the Neo-Ishgardian gear, why generally they replace pants with skirts or wee shorts, they'd say "Well... Girls want to be cute, right?"

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I mean...it's a steampunk set. And I don't know a girl that doesn't wear some variety of this set right now or the 2B sets that plays FFXIV a lot.

That's not to use my anecdotal evidence as anything against your perspective, but the audience is there for the steampunk outfit. The Neo-Ishgardian set is one of the few I wouldn't use as reference because it's clearly going for the specific trope of the corset and frilly dress that's in the art style it's replicating.

PERSONALLY I think there should be no gender locks on the "styles" of gear and FFXIV has made strides towards that like Guys being able to wear dresses and bunny outfits and the like, but I'd still say the unfortunate truth is I've got a ton of friends who play the game who are female and all wear either 2B or NeoIshgard when not modding their outfits.

Can't fight things when being celebrated/enthusiastically supported by the fanbase usually.

 

[Sachiel]

Does the city this game takes place in have a temperature regulated ecosystem or something? They look fucking cold.

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Being protectors of prostitutes requires dressing half-naked because of... why? Wouldn't they be better able to protect prostitutes if they had some protective gear?

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Also what the fuck is going on with that black lady, is she made out of lube ?

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The answer to all three questions might be: artificial bodies. If that makes it good design, though, is a different question.

 

[Tunahead]

Even if they were more sensibly dressed, one has to wonder how this all female sex worker gang came about. Like I'm not sayin' the creative process definitely went "How would woman commit crime? Solution: Vagina" but also I am definitely squinting to see if there's a tiny Frank Miller signature somewhere on that picture.

 

[Choppasmith]

I for example would have no problem with a black protagonist as long as they don't adhere to a bunch of outdated stereotypes. GTA V pissed me off for that exact reason. I am very tired of over sexualization of women and I'm a guy. I know where to find porn, I don't need softcore porn in my video games.

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Preach! I think the sad thing is is people are so used to fanservice it becomes noticable when it's toned down. People DO want that softcore porn in their games.

To me, the best way to describe it, it's like a Poochie. You know the character that tries way too hard to be cool. I like cool characters but then there's a level of trying too hard that it becomes obnoxious.

What a gang!

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I get a Harley Quinn Fan Club come from this.

 

[ClickyCal']

What a gang!

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"iT's pArT oF tHe WoRlD tHoUgH"


FFS....this damn game.
This game seems like the definition of try hard.

 

[Persephone]

"fuck to live, kill to fuck" wow,,so dep.,e,,,,,

there's definitely an opportunity for commentary on the commodification of women's bodies and sex work (i'll admit i'm not knowledgeable on the cyberpunk genre and i've seen ppl express dislike of this trope) but i don't trust a bunch of dudes to deliver anything insightful

 

[Htown]

a reminder

 

[RedSwirl]

What a gang!

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The plastic skin stuff could be applied in any way so it doesn't really matter for this argument. The other other important detail I'm aware of is CDPR described this gang as sort of like a labor union for sex workers. The idea is probably something like the Old Town girls in Sin City or something (which has its own issues). I think they're supposed to be on the job, but still armed or something.

I'm interested in seeing this game's attempts to examine sex workers and the issue therein (the most recent trailer specifically mentioned LBGT+ groups when talking about this game), and it's probably going to try way harder than any GTA game or any of the Witcher games. It's probably going to stumble, but I still want to see the attempt.

Does the city this game takes place in have a temperature regulated ecosystem or something? They look fucking cold.

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It's in the middle of the desert (tangentially-related, FFXII is probably the only big example I can think of where you had a whole society of people living in the desert and wearing desert clothes without that automatically meaning bikinis), but there also seems to be rain and stuff. Who knows.

 

[RedSwirl]

These are the screenshots for all of the gangs revealed so far.

Not really screenshots as these are wallpapers, but good high quality look of gang designs, materials etc.

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If you ask me, these gangs look like they came out of a PS2 era or early 360 era urban street game or something. Like True Crime or Saints Row 2. But there might be some interesting aspects to them.

I also still have some hope for body diversity in the NPCs for the game (Witcher 3's female NPCs were pretty uniform in that regard as far as I can remember).

It's just a question of whether this body type would be available when creating V.

 

[misho8723]

"fuck to live, kill to fuck" wow,,so dep.,e,,,,,

there's definitely an opportunity for commentary on the commodification of women's bodies and sex work (i'll admit i'm not knowledgeable on the cyberpunk genre and i've seen ppl express dislike of this trope) but i don't trust a bunch of dudes to deliver anything insightful

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You know that CDPR has women working on the project too, right?

 

[Kyuuji]

Is there like some bat symbol that goes out whenever anyone criticises Cyberpunk or something.

 

[Veelk]

a reminder

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He mentioned that he is going to do an updated version of that video sometime. I look forward to it.

Anyway, as a stylistic choice, I think a sexually oriented gang in a genre like Cyberpunk is appropriate, but if you're going to do that, there are numerous ways to combat the worst aspects of it. For example, include men in that set up in equal number. Whenever I see the "sex oriented group" that is always automatically equated to "all (or nearly all) women" group, and you'd already be doing a lot to stem the tide of misogyny associated with prostitution if you make it gender neutral. I mean, this is supposed to be the transgressive, creative, futuristic genre, and after all these years, you're framing only women in terms of sexual objectification? Cyberpunk is supposed to transgress what you believed was possible with the human body, and you can do all sorts of creative things with gender in creating a sexually oriented group.

And, additionally, sex oriented does not necessarily mean skimpy. Again, cyberpunk is about transgressive social norms, so "Oh, these women are barely dressed with their asses and tits out" is pretty cliche. For example, corperations are super big now, right? You could imagine there is a big corperate cosplay section of the population that wants the fantasy of being able to fuck successful people in the business world. Same thing with the other gangs like the big boy gang that's full of strong muscled people. Or those extremely cybernetically enhanced dudes that look like terminators. If this group is having fucking as their business, then they want a diversity of body times and themes so that people could come in and fuck whoever they wanted.

There's a level of criticizing cyberpunk for having a sexualization objectified gang at all, which is a genre convention born out of obvious sexism and desire to objectify womens bodies. But if you accept that as a genre convention of Cyberpunk, then the next step is to be actually creative about what sexualized cyberpunk can actually be.

 

[misho8723]

Actually, judging from this the main problem here is that the writing seems terrible.

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Please, be specific why do you think the writing is terrible

I, too, wear a combat bikini.

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You know that they aren't soldiers, right? They are still working sex workers who go help someone from their field of work to help when someone is abusing them or threating with violence

Yeah super cool that the game is managing to represent...prostitutes.

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The game is going to represent various types of characters and societes.. why is there a problem that part of the society are also prostitutes?

Being protectors of prostitutes requires dressing half-naked because of... why? Wouldn't they be better able to protect prostitutes if they had some protective gear?

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Because they are still working sex workers... simple answer, I don't know what are you here looking for.. and they have the most expensive cyberskin already installed on them - the reason why they look so, shiny

This looks like a weird fetishist Second Life screenshot.
Also what the fuck is going on with that black lady, is she made out of lube ?

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You haven't read what I wrote in my previous comment, right? They have Realskinn - the most expensive option when you want to cover your real skin: a flexible plastic that looks very much like skin with follicles, hairs, small scars and imperfections, and has a 75% chance of passing as a "meat" limb to all but the closest inspection. It can took a huge amount of hits to get it atleast a little bit to damage

Even if they were more sensibly dressed, one has to wonder how this all female sex worker gang came about. Like I'm not sayin' the creative process definitely went "How would woman commit crime? Solution: Vagina" but also I am definitely squinting to see if there's a tiny Frank Miller signature somewhere on that picture.

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How to gang get together I wrote already in my previous comment : Formed in 2076 after the death of Elizabeth "Lizzie" Borden, a strip club owner & ex-prostitute who treated her workers fairly and defended them from violent clients, The Moxes refer to themselves as "those who protect working girls and guys" from violence and abuse

 

[Veelk]

You know what would have been interesting? If they asked actual sex workers what they wanted to be depicted like in a cyberpunk world. What enhancements would they get, what they'd want to look like.

 

[KujoJosuke]

You know that CDPR has women working on the project too, right?

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Are they in any positions of power/management/whatever?

Because CDPR has proven that the people in charge are generally clueless. From the weird twitter shit to saying the CP2077 is not "political", to a number of other issues

 

[RedSwirl]

"Where is the transhumanism stuff?" is indeed a question that Cyberpunk 2077's marketing hasn't answered yet.

You know what would have been interesting? If they asked actual sex workers what they wanted to be depicted like in a cyberpunk world. What enhancements would they get, what they'd want to look like.

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And more importantly, "what would an armed sex worker union look like?"

 

[Rhaknar]

Hi

Regarding the thread title "her ass is part of her character", is this something that someone here actually said to defend a character's design? (I'm going to guess: Cammy?)

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I think its a joke / general statement, but I like to think it's about 2B. But I guess Cammy works aswell.

 

[misho8723]

I am guessing that the owner's name is a reference to the actual Lizzie Borden, which eh not really sure if that was a good idea.

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Well that name is from the original lore book - Night City Sourcebook is a highly detailed user guide on Night City, the setting for the Pen and Paper RPG Cyberpunk 2020. Published by R. Talsorian Games in 1991.

 

[Morrigan]

I think its a joke / general statement, but I like to think it's about 2B. But I guess Cammy works aswell.

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It was about Cammy and they were not joking

 

[Ruisu]

You know I think I'm kind of bad in matters of objectification and often make bad arguments for it the games and anime I like, but at least I'm not trying to come mansplain in a long running OT.

 

[purseowner]

You know I think I'm kind of bad in matters of objectification and often make bad arguments for it the games and anime I like, but at least I'm not trying to come mansplain in a long running OT.

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It's as if they're working from the mansplaining textbook it's so predictable, which incidentally was published in

 

[ClickyCal']

You know what would have been interesting? If they asked actual sex workers what they wanted to be depicted like in a cyberpunk world. What enhancements would they get, what they'd want to look like.

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Yep. Like what ND did with Part II for its representation.