Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."

[Dragmire]

It's so unsurprising how people are so hyped up that they become willfully ignorant when people say something like this:

"But here's every single woman in the FF series!" "You see a black man in the first hour of this game." "Maybe next time it'll happen."
I'm not even talking about the really awful people. I'm including people that want a female protagonist again. But fans never want their companies to look as bad as they really are when a new game appears. The minute you talk about representation a switch gets flipped in their head. Like get hyped, but don't put down the meaning behind a discussion like this. Even if it has exaggeration.
The game is still coming out and no one will stop you from buying it and making a video about it. Goddamn.

 

[Tizoc]

So in last remnant

Spoiler

emma dies and her daughter takes her place
...and her 20 something daughter got that zettai ryokai going on XD

 

[Rae]

So in last remnant

Spoiler

emma dies and her daughter takes her place
...and her 20 something daughter got that zettai ryokai going on XD

Click to shrink...

It's a shame since Emma's armor design is great.

 

[ClickyCal']

Hypersexualised Women in Ads in Cyberpunk 2077

So today I watched the two most recent CP2077 trailers Postcards from Night City and Gangs of Night City and was struck by the sheer number of hypersexualised in-game ads there were. Not only were there so many, but they all appeared to feature women. Curious, I decided to go back through each...

www.resetera.com

Another strike on cyberpunk.

 

[Rae]

That entire thread is a big OOF and I feel awk even from reading it like I'm not buying the game but damn.

 

[NovumVeritas]

The thread was temporarily closed.
The whole dissussion in there was going out of hand quickly.
I am not sure but the behaviour on this forum got more into the aggressive tone.
Maybe I imagine things though.

 

[rras1994]

Honestly threads like that are hard to comment in because it's mostly male posters saying it's not a problem and that it's fine cus the setting and the world's meant to be dark blah blah blah

Then they make it seem like you are being insensitive for having a problem with it. In one case I had someone imply I had a mental illness and that was my issue to deal with.

Posters are so defensive of CDPR and they have a history of using minorities issues as edginess in their games and I am tired of butting my head against the wall pointing it out

 

[NovumVeritas]

Honestly threads like that are hard to comment in because it's mostly male posters saying it's not a problem and that it's fine cus the setting and the world's meant to be dark blah blah blah

Then they make it seem like you are being insensitive for having a problem with it. In one case I had someone imply I had a mental illness and that was my issue to deal with.

Posters are so defensive of CDPR and they have a history of using minorities issues as edginess in their games and I am tired of butting my head against the wall pointing it out

Click to shrink...

The thing you describe was basically the thread in a nutshell.
They were saying it is part of the cyberpunk flair and it is common that something like this is in there.
I heard about the things regarding CDPR and I am pretty sad that this developer also suffers from this.

 

[purseowner]

Had a post in response to those who quoted me half typed but the thing got locked. So many people saying 'that's the way the world is with cyberpunk' as if that excuses the specifics of artistic choices made by the developers - no one forced them to make those design choices or frame the sexualisation in that way. Those who quoted me completely ignored the fact that I acknowledged that sexualisation is usually a part of the cyberpunk aesthetic. I just don't see any justification for it present in this.

 

[RecLib]

People in that thread were real quick to defend the sexualization as being "commentary", when we know it isn't. We know it isn't because CD Project Red went out of their way to explicitly say the game features no politics.

 

[NovumVeritas]

Had a post in response to those who quoted me half typed but the thing got locked. So many people saying 'that's the way the world is with cyberpunk' as if that excuses the specifics of artistic choices made by the developers - no one forced them to make those design choices or frame the sexualisation in that way. Those who quoted me completely ignored the fact that I acknowledged that sexualisation is usually a part of the cyberpunk aesthetic. I just don't see any justification for it present in this.

Click to shrink...

I got the same impression. There is no need to put this sexualisation straight into your face via the huge ads or the whole world.
This thread was a tough read.

 

[Azem]

Treading 40 year old ground and not reassessing and updating any of it and upholding the status quo is very not cyberpunk.

 

[hachikoma]

It's locked again, but it only got worse when it was briefly reopened.

 

[NovumVeritas]

Yeah crazy.

 

[purseowner]

Amazed by how many people in that thread are seriously spewing 'stop being offended' rhetoric. What site am I on again?

 

[Persephone]

wowzers that thread. i mean i'm not surprised but i'm still disappointed

 

[RecLib]

Amazed by how many people in that thread are seriously spewing 'stop being offended' rhetoric. What site am I on again?

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I don't want to be like, a broken record, but reset era is not progressive in any meaningful way. This is evident in every single thread where actual diversity or representation issues are brought up. It is progressive in that way where people want to pat themselves on the back because they at least don't actively use slurs.

The only strength of reset era is it is at least moderated enough for this thread and other specific threads like it to function as they do.

 

[Xaszatm]

I like how that thread is insistent that CDPR is just depicting a hellworld and to look at the message behind it when we've had multiple examples of them insisting that Cyberpunk somehow isn't political, them purposefully leaving a transphobic ad when they acknowledged it earlier, had their twitter guy spout out alt-right views that they only removed because the bullshit that was spat out on Twitter became so egregious that they couldn't pretend it wasn't happening, and the other laundry lists that has come out of CDPR.

And the ones going "good I want their to be sexualized women" just show that even if it is going to be a parody, it already failed because people in that thread are absolutely taking it at face value.

 

[RecLib]

Its funny in a sad way that they reopened the thread and almost immediately had to close it again.

And the ones going "good I want their to be sexualized women" just show that even if it is going to be a parody, it already failed because people in that thread are absolutely taking it at face value.

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There is, I think, a really nuanced discussion that can be had about satire or parody of things like sexualized character designs. Whether or not it can actually be accomplished when no matter what your product will still actively benefit from the sexualization in marketing and merchandise.

None of that is relevant to Cyberpunk of course, because the intent is not even there in the first place, as CDPR has made clear themselves.

 

[Shining Star]

I like how that thread is insistent that CDPR is just depicting a hellworld and to look at the message behind it when we've had multiple examples of them insisting that Cyberpunk somehow isn't political, them purposefully leaving a transphobic ad when they acknowledged it earlier, had their twitter guy spout out alt-right views that they only removed because the bullshit that was spat out on Twitter became so egregious that they couldn't pretend it wasn't happening, and the other laundry lists that has come out of CDPR.

And the ones going "good I want their to be sexualized women" just show that even if it is going to be a parody, it already failed because people in that thread are absolutely taking it at face value.

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I cant believe how many "it's supposed to be bad!" posts there were. Like seriously.

 

[caff!!!]

I'm not exactly sure what a bunch of straight male horny ads are supposed to comment on other than pure edge (see: GTA.) I wonder if the agnst will seep far into the writing as well, because I'm still a huge ass sucker for the cyberpunk look and will be disappointed in another AAAA game being written for edgy 15 year olds

 

[y2kyle89]

The "blood good boobs bad? Checkmate." posts are the ones that really perturb me...

 

[rras1994]

We all know if we made a thread highlighting excessive violence the same posters would have a problem with that too - it's not as if any thread criticising the games industry reliance on excessive violence has gone very well either.

 

[Metalsnakezero]

I can see it as ads being bad in the way Cyberpunk being suppressing but they they can be little more subtle or not have so many.
2077 will be a mix of great ideas with real thought of the cyberpunk world (the flying cars and the large oil fields) but will trip up in smaller details (trans characters, races, and the finer details of class).

 

[purseowner]

I can see it as ads being bad in the way Cyberpunk being suppressing but they they can be little more subtle or not have so many.
2077 will be a mix of great ideas with real thought of the cyberpunk world (the flying cars and the large oil fields) but will trip up in smaller details (trans characters, races, and the finer details of class).

Click to shrink...

You could argue that these are the defining elements of a cyberpunk work though in regards to what the genre typically explores.

 

[SemRockwel]

Cyberpunk as a genre was mostly about the evils of hyper-capitalism run amok. I can see how an examination of corporate sexual exploitation can be made in a cyberpunk world, but I think it would be hard for that to be done right in a big-budget, mainstream game as the game's publisher would still want to benefit from any sexualization the game presents.

In the case of CD-Project Red, they don't have any interest in critical analysis so the point is moot.

CDPR's messaging on the game has always been:
"See this Cyberpunk world over here? Isn't it fun, exciting, dangerous, and sexy!?"

 

[Veelk]

Cyberpunk as a genre was mostly about the evils of hyper-capitalism run amok. I can see how an examination of corporate sexual exploitation can be made in a cyberpunk world, but I think it would be hard for that to be done right in a big-budget, mainstream game as the game's publisher would still want to benefit from any sexualization the game presents.

In the case of CD-Project Red, they don't have any interest in critical analysis so the point is moot.

Click to shrink...

This is basically where I'm at, except I want to actually see what happens in the game. From their PR, I agree this is probably the case, but...idk, who knows, maybe some lone writer in CDPR knows the shit they're doing and is writing a side story that actually criticizes the sexualization of the ads.

 

[ItchyTasty]

I haven't seen the ads but I feel like in most cases these "commentaries" on corporate sexualization falls flat since it's always hyper sexualized women created by men for men.

Reminds me of this clip from Detroit Become Human which is also supposed to be this real life commentary sort of thing. There are android strippers and the female ones are sensually animated while the male one was stiff as stick. Really shows where the developer's head was really at.

 

[SemRockwel]

I haven't seen the ads but I feel like in most cases these "commentaries" on corporate sexualization falls a flat since it's always hyper sexualized women created by men for men.

Reminds me of this clip from Detroit Become Human which is also supposed to be this real life commentary sort of thing. There are android strippers and the female ones are sensually animated while the male one was stiff as stick. Really shows where the developer's head was really at.

Click to shrink...

Yeah I definitely agree with this.


Edit:

This is basically where I'm at, except I want to actually see what happens in the game. From their PR, I agree this is probably the case, but...idk, who knows, maybe some lone writer in CDPR knows the shit they're doing and is writing a side story that actually criticizes the sexualization of the ads.

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure having a one off side story that one of the writers slipped in would really negate the overall problems the game has.

 

[Persephone]

if you claim to be "deconstructing" a harmful trope but u don't actually include the criticism of said trope...........................you're actually just playing the harmful trope straight

 

[Veelk]

I'm not sure having a one off side story that one of the writers slipped in would really negate the overall problems the game has.

Click to shrink...

I didn't imply it would. It'd only be some kind of amelioration if it was there. Not every mildly hopeful/non-negative comment about a thing is a staunch defense or dismissal of the problem.

My thing with it is that the marketing of Cyberpunk 2077 has a materially different job than the game Cyberpunk is. The game, as an art product, might be, in theory, designed to criticize capitalism. But the marketing is meant to sell Cyberpunk 2077 as a game, so it's incentivized to use the sex art in the game to sell it. This is not to suggest we should believe the game is going to have an effectively told criticism of sex ads when they use so much of them, but I've never heard once heard of a real life entertainment product selling itself as "Oh, hey, come over here and watch this product, it tells you how shitty marketing is with how it exploits sexuality and shit." Most products either use sex ads or they don't, but they never sell criticism of sex ads as the ad.

My point, I guess, is that I don't disagree that Cyberpunk 2077 is selling itself with sex ads straight up like any other product in it's marketing, but I'm hoping that there is something within the game that bucks down on this, because it'll be really disappointing if the sex ads are really just nothing but actual sex ads, adding nothing to the game and having no criticism of it made.

 

[SemRockwel]

I didn't imply it would. It'd only be some kind of amelioration if it was there. Not every mildly hopeful/non-negative comment about a thing is a staunch defense or dismissal of the problem.

My thing with it is that the marketing of Cyberpunk 2077 has a materially different job than the game Cyberpunk is. The game, as an art product, might be, in theory, designed to criticize capitalism. But the marketing is meant to sell Cyberpunk 2077 as a game, so it's incentivized to use the sex art in the game to sell it. This is not to suggest we should believe the game is going to have an effectively told criticism of sex ads when they use so much of them, but I've never heard once heard of a real life entertainment product selling itself as "Oh, hey, come over here and watch this product, it tells you how shitty marketing is with how it exploits sexuality and shit." Most products either use sex ads or they don't, but they never sell criticism of sex ads as the ad.

My point, I guess, is that I don't disagree that Cyberpunk 2077 is selling itself with sex ads straight up like any other product in it's marketing, but I'm hoping that there is something within the game that bucks down on this, because it'll be really disappointing if the sex ads are really just nothing but actual sex ads, adding nothing to the game and having no criticism of it made.

Click to shrink...

I guess I personally don't have faith the game is any more than what it presents itself as given the history of the company. For a lot of people the cyberpunk genre is just a science fantasy world where you can have cool cybernetic implants and shoot stuff.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I fully expect Cyberpunk 2077 to be CDPR's GTA. Sure it's going to have its "satirical" aspects but the game is largely going to be sticking its head into the cake.

I can see it as ads being bad in the way Cyberpunk being suppressing but they they can be little more subtle or not have so many.
2077 will be a mix of great ideas with real thought of the cyberpunk world (the flying cars and the large oil fields) but will trip up in smaller details (trans characters, races, and the finer details of class).

Click to shrink...

The "smaller details" are the important aspect of cyberpunk. Otherwise you just have vapid scifi.

 

[Persephone]

cdpr: [blatant transphobia, misogyny & racism]
resetera dot com: wow look at this BITING SATIRE

 

[RedSwirl]

I just don't know about CDPR at this point. I think the Witcher games show that CDPR's writers are at least aware of all these kinds of issues, at least aware enough to create fantasy world stand-ins for some of the small details of things like racism and classism and imperialism. Most of that came from Sapkowski's prose, but you could at least say CDPR was exposed to it and had a sense of what direction it was pointed towards.

One of the reasons Cyberpunk 2077 is interesting is because it's the first time CDPR is working without Sapkowski to fall back on. Now their basis is a very 80's Cyberpunk tabletop game which itself was a fairly tongue-in-cheek response to some of the more foundational cyberpunk works. I personally don't think it's gonna be 100% "wow cool cyberpunk" but I'm definitely not expecting Gibson-tier cyberpunk critique or whatever.

Come to think of it, writing-wise the best Cyberpunk game is still probably Deus Ex.

 

[Rhaknar]

Don't have image examples since I have the game on Switch, but Hades should be commended for it's character designs. Very tasteful, very cool, the ladies show SOME skin but nothing out of the ordinary given it's greek mythology roots, but so do the dudes, everyone out there showing shoulders and bellies (again, goes with the greek theme). Even aphrodite is very tame by "goddess of love" standards. Good stuff.

 

[Deer]

After playing the Witcher games, I I absolutely do not trust CDPR to do anything worthwhile regarding women or LGBT+.
(Althought the Gwent story game might be a bit better? I only played a bit of it, but it seemed better)

 

[Dary]

if you claim to be "deconstructing" a harmful trope but u don't actually include the criticism of said trope...........................you're actually just playing the harmful trope straight

Click to shrink...

Standard case of geeks throwing around jargon to convince people that their hobby is cleverer than it actually is :/

[insert ProZD here]

 

[RedSwirl]

(Althought the Gwent story game might be a bit better? I only played a bit of it, but it seemed better)

Click to shrink...

I haven't played the Gwent story but I hear it incorporates stuff set during the books (which I have read)?

Personally I think the Witcher games are overall a mixed bag in this area, though to me they definitely feel more nuanced compared to a ton of AAA games. Well Witcher 2 and 3 at least. Again, most of it came from the tone of the books, which are recognized as at least somewhat progressive for their time and place (1980's Poland). Actually anybody seen any feminist breakdowns of Witcher?

Then again, I have no recollection of any LGBT+ stuff in the Witcher games to speak of.

Spoiler

In the books there's only Ciri's girlfriend, who is violently killed in front of her by some motherfucker who tortures her for half the book.

 

[pizzabutt]

I haven't played the Gwent story but I hear it incorporates stuff set during the books (which I have read)?

Personally I think the Witcher games are overall a mixed bag in this area, though to me they definitely feel more nuanced compared to a ton of AAA games. Well Witcher 2 and 3 at least. Again, most of it came from the tone of the books, which are recognized as at least somewhat progressive for their time and place (1980's Poland). Actually anybody seen any feminist breakdowns of Witcher?

Then again, I have no recollection of any LGBT+ stuff in the Witcher games to speak of.

Spoiler

In the books there's only Ciri's girlfriend, who is violently killed in front of her by some motherfucker who tortures her for half the book.

Click to shrink...

philippa eilhart and dethmold in witcher 2 are both gay. Geralt walks in on Philippa having sex with women twice and Dethmold is revealed to be gay right before Roche kills him.

 

[Persephone]

witcher 3 had that one gay dude who was sad because his boyfriend died, and when you play as ciri you can say you prefer women. it's uhhh not enough

 

[Monstress]

Dethmold is revealed to be gay right before Roche kills him.

Click to shrink...

And sexually mutilates him before. Even the rapist king is "just" killed, he doesn't have his balls cut off and then fed to him.
But hey, being gay is the biggest crime according to CDPR.

 

[Aexact]

So in last remnant

Spoiler

emma dies and her daughter takes her place
...and her 20 something daughter got that zettai ryokai going on XD

Click to shrink...

The Last Remnant

Spoiler

I was pretty let down by that too! Not in the sense that I think Emma was just a cooler character but that almost immediately after her death, Emmy dramatically strides in like a carbon copy of Emma's skills but better but it's not the same character at all, I am emotionally not on par with what the game thinks it's triumphantly giving me. She came outta nowhere and doesn't have the same connection with the existing characters. What a bizarre moment.

 

[RedSwirl]

I still gotta look this up to see if it's true, but one of the actresses for one of the sorceresses in Witcher 3 was apparently a trans woman. I don't remember if someone said it was the mocap actress or the face model or the English voice actress or a mix of the three.

philippa eilhart and dethmold in witcher 2 are both gay. Geralt walks in on Philippa having sex with women twice and Dethmold is revealed to be gay right before Roche kills him.

Click to shrink...

Totally slipped my mind. Philippa's portrayal in that regard was a bit more subtle in the books. The only "smart" thing I can think about is that one dude in the beginning of Witcher 3 who says he's a "freak" and Geralt first assumes he's like a werewolf or something.

witcher 3 had that one gay dude who was sad because his boyfriend died, and when you play as ciri you can say you prefer women. it's uhhh not enough

Click to shrink...

Spoilers if you haven't read the books:

Spoiler

Ciri is implied to at least be canonically bi, and possibly a lesbian, in the books, but they go through the whole kill-your-gays thing I describe above.

 

[Jaded Photographer]

And sexually mutilates him before. Even the rapist king is "just" killed, he doesn't have his balls cut off and then fed to him.
But hey, being gay is the biggest crime according to CDPR.

Click to shrink...

That sounds needlessly fucking excessive. Bad enough their combat systems are bland, but they have to grotesquely mutilate a gay person and it gets defended?

 

[PaperSparrow]

That sounds needlessly fucking excessive. Bad enough their combat systems are bland, but they have to grotesquely mutilate a gay person and it gets defended?

Click to shrink...

"It's supposed to be bad."
"It's realistic for the setting."
"It fits with the tone."

 

[RecLib]

Spoiler

In the books there's only Ciri's girlfriend, who is violently killed in front of her by some motherfucker who tortures her for half the book.

Click to shrink...

My interest in reading the witcher books did a real whiplash as I passed the comma in your sentence.

 

[Jaded Photographer]

"It's supposed to be bad."
"It's realistic for the setting."
"It fits with the tone."

Click to shrink...

There's nothing wrong with being gay though. Holy shit some people have a narrow view point.

 

[RedSwirl]

My interest in reading the witcher books did a real whiplash as I passed the comma in your sentence.

Click to shrink...

Spoiler

I mean, she kills him at the end of the last book, but yeah.

Overall though I like the general thrust of Ciri's arc in the books. It's basically that various groups want to control her in one way or another, whether it's her powers, bloodline, or womb, and ultimately all of them fail to do so. And in the end she gets the warp thing she has in Witcher 3, which lets her forever stay out of anyone's reach.

I just want the Netflix show to get to the part where she kicks a whole bunch of dude's asses while ice skating.

 

[Monstress]

That sounds needlessly fucking excessive. Bad enough their combat systems are bland, but they have to grotesquely mutilate a gay pers

Click to shrink...

Yeah, and it comes from nowhere: we don't know Dethmold is gay until his death scene, where he appears to be... Quite vain, even if it never was a part of his character before.
I played W2 after W3 and it'll be my very last CDPR game. Never again.