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Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."
- Thread starter Persephone
- Start date
- OT
It's been awhile, but the TR "survivor" games? Most costumes are mostly tied to the mechanics or setting. Like she gets winter parkas for the cold climates, climbing gear, military gear, etc...
I could be misremembering, but I don't recall anything like cleavage prone evening gowns or bikinis? There was the classic outfit with the t-shirt and cargo shorts being the closest? It has been awhile though.
Edit: Found a link showing all RoTR outfits as an example...
Gamer Chuds: "Stop putting your woke crap in our games."
Also Gamer Chuds "Why do all of these characters look the same. Developers are creatively bankrupt."
I would count the survivor trilogy with the caveat that Lara was done dirty as a character, and the first game having the torture porn deaths and rape attempt scene.
Ah, yes, the classic :
"Oh, a female character of a cartoony artstyle, let's instead put a face that is not cartoony at all and give her big breasts and a deep cleavage !"
Fucks sake...
any of yall watch Luke Stevens? I think he was an IGN writer at one point, anyways, I see this guy pop up every where and I watched his Stellar Blade vid - the long and short of his analysis was "If you just ignore these problematic elements, there's actually a really great game underneath, so dont get worked up and play the game."
like what are we doing here.
also, i love how he goes on about how gameplay is king and the rest is kind of set dressing but then he shit on rise of ronin for having worse graphics, literally ignoring its gameplay.
these content creators aint worth a fuck dude. needless to say hes on the do not watch and avoid list from now on. true clown behavior.
like what are we doing here.
also, i love how he goes on about how gameplay is king and the rest is kind of set dressing but then he shit on rise of ronin for having worse graphics, literally ignoring its gameplay.
these content creators aint worth a fuck dude. needless to say hes on the do not watch and avoid list from now on. true clown behavior.
See the problem with this guy is that you can literally say that for any game that someone depicts as not worth their time or that they consider bad. Anything can become really great if you just ignore the problems. We've been ignoring the "problematic elements" for years because of this mentality and when people finally start speaking out against them, we're told to silence ourselves because it's ruining their enjoyment. In reality, we're just asking people to acknowledge that what they may like has problems and to call out games for piss poor inclusion or representation so game developers can finally step out of their stigmas from the 90s and move forward with the times, but people like Luke and the more vocal idiots are desperately trying to cling to the past.
The guy you mentioned just became the poster child for the meme "this is fine" without even realizing it.
I really hope not, all this stuff is really disgusting. Sexualisation of innocent is basically just big red flags that you're a predator, heck we dated a lady in the past who worked out one of our headkids (littles) didn't know what sex was and hadn't had bad touch talks and got her to do things with her. Children are not sexy, children are children, no matter what their body looks like. I just wish this stuff wasn't even vaugely acceptable withing geek/fandom spaces.We're going to find out that she's 1 day old on the day the game starts. Aww she's so innocent and untainted by the realities of adulthood! As the player it is our duty to train her how to be a grown up.
Luke 'If you're a proud homophobe that's fine with me" Stephens.
Dude is a known plagiarist and conservative hack.
Yup lol. Context (referencing Bill and Frank in TLOU):
Holy run-on....... He used to write for a site professionally?
(Edit: Not to downplay the absolute garbage take said snippet was trying to espouse)
Me watching that Ronin vid must have fucked up my algo.
Yeah, upon further review, he is indeed a total piece of garbage. These fuck heads are everywhere, its like fucking wack-a-mole with chuds.
Sorry to bring attention to him. His video does seem to be general consensus regarding the defending of this game.
Classic. You can be a total hateful piece of shit if it goes against your religion or lifestyle you choose to live!
Alice: Madness Returns maybe:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFrs5UGB-ns
I haven't played it yet but it seems to be an action platformer. Every level has Alice in a different outfit and they all look really cool from what I've seen. (No idea what the budget was.)
EDIT to add: Silent Hill 3 has LOTS of unlockable costumes but most of them are all kinda the same (tanktops with different graphics).
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I'm not sure if the outfits are gazey it's been a while but the story is kind of weird about like sexual abuse in a way that was clearly written by out of touch men. Still a cool game but not really a super feminist game
No joke I still think about Alice: Madness Returns every few months. The way it reimagines Wonderland made me think of how many different ways and themes you could do the same with that base Alice template. Would love to see a new take on it with her in her mid 20's or so. I was already into cosmetic options in games but the variety of dresses in A:MR really stood out and has kinda stuck since. I still reference it on odd occasions where the topic of cosmetics in games comes up.
I've recently played and completed Freshly-Picked Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland which was a... very weird game in multiple ways. But it also kinda reminded me how some Nintendo games pre-2010 had some very questionable female character designs and depictions of women/girls in general.
In Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland, you have a companion character who basically gives you pointers on what you should be doing next in the game. Her name is Pinkle and she wears a bra and fishnet stockings. Aside from that, at the start of the game, when Tingle is told of all the wonders of Rupeeland that makes it such a paradise, one of the selling factors is that it's filled with cute girls.
In many ways, this game reminded me of the Wario games. Which also reminded me that in Wario Land 4, there's multiple different endings, with Wario being kissed by a princess he saves at the end. She's younger and/or "prettier/uglier" depending on how many chests you collect before the ending. That always weirded me out even back in the day, and it's even wilder to think back on now.
In Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland, you have a companion character who basically gives you pointers on what you should be doing next in the game. Her name is Pinkle and she wears a bra and fishnet stockings. Aside from that, at the start of the game, when Tingle is told of all the wonders of Rupeeland that makes it such a paradise, one of the selling factors is that it's filled with cute girls.
In many ways, this game reminded me of the Wario games. Which also reminded me that in Wario Land 4, there's multiple different endings, with Wario being kissed by a princess he saves at the end. She's younger and/or "prettier/uglier" depending on how many chests you collect before the ending. That always weirded me out even back in the day, and it's even wilder to think back on now.
Hellblade kind of nails all that except for having multiple costume options/ordinarily fashionable. The first game was I think very reliant on the UE asset library to get made within budet. The second game has much higher production values obviously but it looks like they're keeping below the dreaded 9-figure mark. Sounds similar to Plague Tale to be honest in terms of how they got it out the door with barely any staff/budget.
Horizon would also be a good choice too except for the budget thing. It looks like it was around $200 million to make.
What we really need is a new Mirror's Edge game.
I never got around to Madness Returns even though I loved the original American Mcgee's Alice. Maybe I should correct that.
If you have a capable one, PC. Well even if you don't for the future. Is is a good game to be able to see a clear difference between raytracing on and off right away and what got me to see how much it could do that wasn't just a gimmick.
If you have a capable one, PC. Well even if you don't for the future. Is is a good game to be able to see a clear difference between raytracing on and off right away and what got me to see how much it could do that wasn't just a gimmick.
It's definitely not going to since they're doing the whole dress up the sex doll however you want or just have her be naked thing(unless they take a wild swing and go for a Teen Titans video game ending), but it's technically possible. They could actually use the dumb biblical stuff and work off of Eve's origin as being created from Adam for Adam. There's an opportunity there for a lot of commentary on the male gaze and objectification(a very literal allegory in this case). That even though she's a space angel, a terminator, etc. she still has to exist as something to provide men pleasure. Deal with the existential horror and dysmorphia that her body isn't her own, but one designed. Whether that be through space magic or the men that engineered her. From there they could go down several routes. Have her ultimately come to terms with her appearance and find meaning in what she does have control over, crafting her identity as a individual. If she is a robot, she could have her appearance changed to something she better identifies with(they could make her non cis if they wanted to be extra spicy). They could even keep her as a more sexual being, but one that's on her terms and for her own pleasure.
It's sort of happened before. Nurse Bendy's characterization in Moral Oral is pretty misogynistic at first, but season 3 does a hard swerve with the Alone episode. Showing the impact it has on her from almost everybody in her life infantilizing and objectifying her. She later develops a really healthy relationship with her son that ends with them both much happier.
Everything can theoretically be done well. Like the 1000 year old dragon trope pretty universally sucks and is gross, but there's still good examples that fall under it like Baby Doll from Batman TAS or Bisky from Hunter x Hunter. Which, on a side note, I'm not looking forward to the discourse when she gets revealed for the HxH fighting game. She slipped under the radar when she got put in Jump Force, but I doubt she'll be so lucky now when Chuds are actively looking for shit to cry about. Doesn't help she's a lot closer to what they act like a lot of woman in games are like.
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Yeah no, you're not showing your ass, it is purely a coincidence I'm sure; maybe I'm just too online lmao
Oh, thanks for all the recommendations! Cannot individually reply to all of them--it would be too much.
Listing the ones so far:
Control (is there anything this game is not good at?)
Alice: Madness Returns
Resident Evil 2 Remake
Princess Peach: Showtime
Final Fantasy X-2 (maybe, not sure about the male gaze part)
Some questions remain:
9 Years of Shadow: Surprised that this has a fair amount of costumes given the style of game. Looking at the screen shots, how many of those are battle armor or other gear that looks more like battle gear rather than fashion?
Horizon: Similar question to 9 Years of Shadow. Are the costumes fashion-like? Or are they battle armor-like?
The fashion-like line is one that I am having some trouble expressing concisely. Basically, I think of impractical costumes that are designed to objectify women differently than fashionable clothing that are merely impractical for the environment. And I think of the latter as a good thing, because they make for more variable designs, even when used in combat situations. So nice looking plate armor, fatigues, or similar battle gear is definitely not what I am looking for with this question.
Listing the ones so far:
Control (is there anything this game is not good at?)
Alice: Madness Returns
Resident Evil 2 Remake
Princess Peach: Showtime
Final Fantasy X-2 (maybe, not sure about the male gaze part)
Some questions remain:
9 Years of Shadow: Surprised that this has a fair amount of costumes given the style of game. Looking at the screen shots, how many of those are battle armor or other gear that looks more like battle gear rather than fashion?
Horizon: Similar question to 9 Years of Shadow. Are the costumes fashion-like? Or are they battle armor-like?
The fashion-like line is one that I am having some trouble expressing concisely. Basically, I think of impractical costumes that are designed to objectify women differently than fashionable clothing that are merely impractical for the environment. And I think of the latter as a good thing, because they make for more variable designs, even when used in combat situations. So nice looking plate armor, fatigues, or similar battle gear is definitely not what I am looking for with this question.
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One of my favorite parts is a completely optional and easily missable little side room where they're experimenting with sound, and you can then go inside the testing chamber. Don't wanna spoil it for anyone who hasn't played Control yet (please play Control it's so good) but I legit just sat there for the full five minutes and something seconds thinking oh... this is peak. Remedy is on a different level.
Maybe infinity nikki I don't know if it fits exactly but it's not male gazey and has lots of fashion options.
Resonance of Fate has alot of problems but they did have fun and unique fashion options that changed in cutscenes for the main trio which was cute. Also, they did have a joke swimsuit outfit but it was not revealing at all and Leanne wears shorts under the skirt.
It's all battle armour for 9 Years of Shadows, I'm afraid! It does have more than you'd expect for that style as armour-swapping is a core gimmick for exploration.
Does Gravity Rush count?
It's been a long time, so I can't remember how male gaze-y it was, but some of the looks were definitely quite stylish.
Does Lightning Returns count because Lightning was in actual Louis Vuitton fashion ads?
I really need to get around to trying Control at some point. I don't even know if my computer would run it but I put it on my Steam wishlist so at least I'll remember it.
The Ultimate edition has gone under $10 so just look out for a price like that. Would expect lower since it has been around that for a while. Game is a great hardware showcase so it will only get better if you wait longer/untill you can get a better setup as well.
The MinnMaxx discussion was another disappointing discussion on Stellar Blade. We have Jacob Geller explain the problems behind the game, the fact that the CEO has fired an individual over being feminist and has made extremely problematic comments in interviews. Then Ben Hanson just immediately wraps up the segment and ends up with 'I'm excited to see how it does, it's cool''. Like literally the next sentence after hearing this information. You have Leo Vader starting the conversation with 'How much of a factor is the sexism in the game, because it's already annoying seeing all the discussion around it'. I mean, even when people are presented with the knowledge they still rampantly disregard it.
Timestamp to at least Jacob trying to speak up while the rest stay silent (and Ben trying to wrap the conversation up at the most crucial point): https://youtu.be/eJHweZsLYYk?t=3335
At least Jacob tried to bring light to the situation. He had a balanced opinion in saying that he was able to enjoy the actual gameplay, but has significant problems with the content and developer. He called it out and tried to spread awareness. That's the least the rest of the people reporting on this could do. They obviously take time to play the game and research information on it. Disappointed in the rest of the crew. This game is really giving me a new light on lots of folk.
Timestamp to at least Jacob trying to speak up while the rest stay silent (and Ben trying to wrap the conversation up at the most crucial point): https://youtu.be/eJHweZsLYYk?t=3335
At least Jacob tried to bring light to the situation. He had a balanced opinion in saying that he was able to enjoy the actual gameplay, but has significant problems with the content and developer. He called it out and tried to spread awareness. That's the least the rest of the people reporting on this could do. They obviously take time to play the game and research information on it. Disappointed in the rest of the crew. This game is really giving me a new light on lots of folk.
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- Control is flawless at everything it does, yes!
- Horizon can be a mix of fashion and battle armor, but it's more so the latter. (I have given my Aloy some mediocre stats at times to look cool.) That being said, it's refreshing to have a female character with so many battle armor options.
- Forspoken as a rec! Whilst Frey's base outfit stays the same, you can change her capes, along with her nails -- which are amazing.
- Another game that immediately came to mind is Bayonetta Origins: Cereza and the Lost Demon, which ticks all the boxes where the base games absolutely do not, lol. The costumes are amazing, the game doesn't objectify Cereza, and it's a really touching and thoughtful coming of age story. The only thing that knocks it down from being 100% is that Cereza has thigh high stockings in her default outfit instead of full stockings, but it's comparatively minor in the scheme of things.
- I think FFX-2 is worth checking out, as I've still played so few games that have an all female party and such a focus on friendship throughout. There's absolutely some silly outfits -- and an awful interactive massage scene! -- but there are some really fun outfits as well.
Does Gravity Rush count?
It's been a long time, so I can't remember how male gaze-y it was, but some of the looks were definitely quite stylish.
Oh, yes! My memory is also a little fuzzy, but I can't think of anything overly egregious outside of Kat's optional outfits being more revealing. God, I miss Gravity Rush's traversal so badly. Pure magic.
No joke I still think about Alice: Madness Returns every few months. The way it reimagines Wonderland made me think of how many different ways and themes you could do the same with that base Alice template. Would love to see a new take on it with her in her mid 20's or so. I was already into cosmetic options in games but the variety of dresses in A:MR really stood out and has kinda stuck since. I still reference it on odd occasions where the topic of cosmetics in games comes up.
Oh, wow! I was always so fascinated by the Alice games as a kid but was too scared to play them -- and then have never got around to playing them as an adult! I really should do that.
BOOBLETS
New favorite word, thank you.
No joke I still think about Alice: Madness Returns every few months. The way it reimagines Wonderland made me think of how many different ways and themes you could do the same with that base Alice template. Would love to see a new take on it with her in her mid 20's or so. I was already into cosmetic options in games but the variety of dresses in A:MR really stood out and has kinda stuck since. I still reference it on odd occasions where the topic of cosmetics in games comes up.
I was thinking about this LITERALLY the other day. Honestly some of the best designed alt outfits ever.
The small details that go into them are particularly great and wonderfully elaborate on steampunk style. The Chessire dress looking like ripped skin at the bottom is terrifyingly great, the short hair and metal arm on Hattress rocks, the dark grey hair on her White Rabbit outfit is pretty (and the actual rabbit feet), her brown eyes for Caterpilllar is a gorgeous touch (it really softens her usual piercing stare), and the meaningful changing symbols on a bunch of her looks (I like the Siren outfit opting for Luna and Neptune symbols).
I also wanna add a back view because the bows on the back were often a great final touch. I particularly love the creepy baby doll head on the Misstitched dress.
Even better is the outfits were more than cosmetic (with gameplay factors attached), so bonus points there.... And more bonus points for surprisingly tight hair physics on the PS3! 👍
A+ stuff.
This is off-topic but I don't like this dude and is a dime-a-dozen gamer bro. Also he (Lukiepoo/Luke Stephens) was caught plagiarising hbomberguy, and was literally the first example in his epic video essay. Hbomberguy brings up how he had a habit of plagiarising and also saying homophobia is fine.
EDIT: I see already mentioned above!
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its not very good unfortunately. I should go back and finish it one of these days, but I probably forgot where I even was by now >_>
also it does not have a "reasonably budget", it looks and feels hella cheap.
I'm looking into playing something outside of the universally lauded, and i feel like this thread is the place to ask, regarding specifically the game i'm looking into:
What's the consensus about Forspoken? As a game.
I'm more than fine both with femmc as well as the awfully bashed banter (it's not even bad in the demo), already played the demo, but i don't think demos are enough to give more than a first impression, and there seems to be bias agaisnt this game that, i feel, isn't actually honest.
My last finished game was Horizon: Zero Dawn, and i'm on a genre cooldown before tackling Forbidden West. It kept a good pace from start to finish if you took time to dive into the subquests, but Forspoken seems to be more linear and action oriented? I would love that.
What's the consensus about Forspoken? As a game.
I'm more than fine both with femmc as well as the awfully bashed banter (it's not even bad in the demo), already played the demo, but i don't think demos are enough to give more than a first impression, and there seems to be bias agaisnt this game that, i feel, isn't actually honest.
My last finished game was Horizon: Zero Dawn, and i'm on a genre cooldown before tackling Forbidden West. It kept a good pace from start to finish if you took time to dive into the subquests, but Forspoken seems to be more linear and action oriented? I would love that.
Agreed, I loved Jessie, and the world wonderful game.. And they added accessibility options so that even someone utterly terrible at games like me, could just enjoy the game free of frustration. I loved it so much for that that I bought the DLC as well.
Costumes are wonderful too.
Oh god yes! I did the same.
Its reminds me I should get back to AW2...
Christmas/depression/kids has really sapped me for gaming since launch.
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There really isn't a consensus on Forspoken, it feels like. If you want to try it, I'd say go ahead and try it. I didn't really enjoy the demo's gameplay, but I'm really picky about controls and game feel, and that was the main thing that repulsed me rather than the writing or the characters.
Forspoken is sort of like Crackdown with battle mage combat. The combat options are pretty cool, but imo the combat interactions with enemies are really underwhelming.
I wanted to like it, was actually really positive on the demo and I think the visual customisation is fun with the capes and fingernail stuff. But it's really not a very good game and a lot of that is cause of its enemy design I feel.
I played Forspoken for 14.5 hours, steam says. Control is a much better rec, in terms of story, presentation, gameplay, just the peerless style of it all.
I wanted to like it, was actually really positive on the demo and I think the visual customisation is fun with the capes and fingernail stuff. But it's really not a very good game and a lot of that is cause of its enemy design I feel.
I played Forspoken for 14.5 hours, steam says. Control is a much better rec, in terms of story, presentation, gameplay, just the peerless style of it all.
Does Gravity Rush count?
It's been a long time, so I can't remember how male gaze-y it was, but some of the looks were definitely quite stylish.
Only showy one was the catsuit, the rest are quite nice. There is no panty shots or such even on the skirt outfits.
A few cutscenes in gr1 had some cheesecake, but nothing too bad.
I can quote myself from earlier in the thread...
Adding that I hated the Demo, and the UI and effects were really a bit overwhelming for my own Neurodivergences, however a robust set of accessibility options allowed me some control over that, and I could just enjoy the parkour and more "simple" spell slinging I set for myself.
I enjoyed it enough to platinum it, and that surprised me. :)
I'd be kind of interested to know what you thought was weird about it (if it is something you're able to articulate, since it was a long time ago and obviously that might have just been a general feeling you got without being able to fully define it). I wouldn't say it was a masterful handling of the topic or anything (like the villain maybe being a bit over the top evil), but I thought it worked well with the theme of the game and Alice in general. Having the playable parts outside of Wonderland was a really interesting choice that played into that too. I'd certainly warn someone about the story before recommending it to them though.
I agree with a lot of other people in here, I adore the designs for all of Alice's outfits. I don't own many art books, but I own the one for Alice Madness Returns because I loved everything about the art direction for that game.
Well, weird wasn't the right word, it's more that as a survivor I don't think they handled the subject matter with much care and it came of somewhat played for shock value, although this is not unexpected from a video game of that generation. At the same time, I do feel that the game tackling these topics at all was laudible and kind of brave for the time it was made and the budget that it had, and I feel a sequel could refine it even further, alhtough I know a sequel will never be made.