This I agree. The boobs alone aren't the problem, the whole design is just terrible.
But men using that so say people complaining are "the real villains"... c'mon.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs | OT3 | "make her look more...corpulent, more stuffed where the eyes can't escape."
- Thread starter Persephone
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- OT
This I agree. The boobs alone aren't the problem, the whole design is just terrible.
But men using that so say people complaining are "the real villains"... c'mon.
A lot of them, yea. There seems to be a lot of basically mansplaining type posts that bleed into gaslighting anyone criticizing the designs at all. Especially for ones using that one post of someone that was actually bodyshamed irl for their own "crusade" of defending character designs.
Okay, cool, I get self-conscious!
But I agree with y'all for the most part in here. And the thread is already a complicated mess.
I don't know what a next thread or better thread would be like, but... It's both a Smash thread AND a Xenoblade thread AND with chars who are obviously designed for on-the-nose sex appeal
I don't know there's another way it could have gone. The side conversation about Nomura is cool, though
Yeah, without question. I don't mind people liking the design or the character, but pretending it isn't 10 layers of ridiculous and explicitly sexual is straight up disingenuous.
EDIT: And yeah, I feel bad that people are using my posts to defend the design as a whole. I tried to be specific, but maybe I should clarify further.
Despite the massive amount of terrible posts in that Smash thread, there were still a bunch of well thought out posts from people trying to make good points or "fight the good fight". It's just that a single terrible post is going to be way more damaging than a good or neural post. But if there was a "yeah/high-five/thumbs-up" option next to the report button, I would've used it at least half as much.
Its just really draining for me to try and read any thread outside of this one lately. You see the bullshit boys club mentality being SO prevalent in this forum and it makes it hard to want to participate in other threads, even ones where that isn't happening. Because you still know its the same posters.
Triangle strategy or whatever it was called looks really cool.
Triangle strategy or whatever it was called looks really cool.
I rushed to post and didn't proofread that porn comment. I meant to say how her design was in more inline with porn/hentai games which often has characters with large breasts and similarly revealing clothing.
That's fair. Plus as Dice added, she's evidently embarrassed about it/she's not the type of char to wear that? Which is another trope. It's not even like she owns it - the outfit is just a thing that happened.
I can't confirm/deny because I haven't played XB, but.
Yeah, the best way to survive on forums are community threads. They are almost always better than their main forum counterparts.
Almost
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this is actually a common misconception if we are talking about pyra, pyra isn't embarrassed at her outfit, she is embarrassed at her ether lines glowing at night. it is something that got misconstrued and taken out of context from the changing day line.
Is it out of context when her ether lines only serve to accentuate her curves and draw your vision towards her genitalia?
I played the first level of the triangle strategy game (what a bad name), and it really is very cool. I skipped all the story because I just wanted to see what the gameplay was like so I can't comment on how the story treats them, but I love the design on these women. All 4 of the women in your party in that first battle look really cool, especially for being in a JRPG game.
Check out Anna
Imagine a world where women getting to look like that was just common and normal in anime games.
Its a real shame that the women thread and the gay thread are both very inactive.
Check out Anna
Imagine a world where women getting to look like that was just common and normal in anime games.
Its a real shame that the women thread and the gay thread are both very inactive.
i mean yeah it kind of still is, here's the thing pyra in the game has no issue with her body outside her glowing tattoos(that we never actually see in game) instead she is either oblivious to it or happy rex is taking an interest in her. mythra being the tsundere archetype does get embarrassed when rex stares at her, but even she doesn't really get to worked up about people seeing her body just rex. So yeah pyra doesn't care that she looks revealing only that she turns into a flashlight at night. So as i said the self consious line is taken out of context
I played the first level of the triangle strategy game (what a bad name), and it really is very cool. I skipped all the story because I just wanted to see what the gameplay was like so I can't comment on how the story treats them, but I love the design on these women. All 4 of the women in your party in that first battle look really cool, especially for being in a JRPG game.
Check out Anna
Imagine a world where women getting to look like that was just common and normal in anime games.
Its a real shame that the women thread and the gay thread are both very inactive.
This is one of my favorite designs ever, just awesome.
But they are only portrayed like that to satisfy their primarily male audience. Pyra is a sex object but only reacts with happiness or obliviousness to her sexualization. Similarly, Mythra only gets to react with the stereotypical tsundere routine. Both are reactions that don't threaten a CIS male audience nor does it grant them any agency with their reactions.
It's one of those things where it's so obvious how much better this is by comparison to like, any modern jRPG design. And the design's so fucking cool too. I miss well-designed characters.I played the first level of the triangle strategy game (what a bad name), and it really is very cool. I skipped all the story because I just wanted to see what the gameplay was like so I can't comment on how the story treats them, but I love the design on these women. All 4 of the women in your party in that first battle look really cool, especially for being in a JRPG game.
Check out Anna
Imagine a world where women getting to look like that was just common and normal in anime games.
I didn't say it gave them agency i was just clarifying they aren't embarrassed at what they are wearing, and pointing out the line that people mistakenly said that she is embarrassed about her outfit is not referring to it at all and has little to do with her sexual design. whether the characters had agency was not in question just clarifying an aspect of the characters personality that had indeed been interpreted wrongly. I am in no way justifying the character design just correcting the assumption of personality
That other thread is an embarrassment and I'm surprised it isn't a graveyard. It's nuts what some people in there are saying to defend a really rough design, and distressing that that sentiment can apparently thrive even here.
your comments weren't exactly helping especially the first one you posted in that thread
Why can't there be more games (or anime) that use more classic anime styles like Cowboy Bebop?
I'm sorry if you had some issue with what I said, and I'll admit I got a little heated. The conversation around Xenoblade 2, in particular, is one that comes up a lot, one where I find the designs and the treatment of the female characters especially awful and one where handwaving and rationalization is like an Olympic sport for a lot of the posters. It's a sore spot.
may introduce you to gundam games they are the only ones that still use classic style since most get based off UC the rest are currenty based on modern anime
what you said with the sex doll comment was mysogonistic, imo. it wasn't simply the character design you were saying she was simply a sex doll with no other redeeming qualities, which is what it seemed like to me. you may want to word your words carefully next time
I was commenting solely on the character design, which is absolutely terrible and extremely clear in its intent. I felt I made that pretty obvious in the thoughts that followed that were also focused on the design, but it can't hurt to make my words more specific in the future.
Yeah... it's exactly because of this that I have little to no energy to posting on here. I mean, I have a lot I want to talk about when it comes to issues like these of sexualized/objectified/misogynistic/sexist/chauvinistic female character designs, but then when I see how boys club even a place like this can be... it makes me think twice about even this forums and the inhabitants of it. I mean, this is the only forums I bother to look at and read on anyway, but even then I am provided with reasons and proofs/evidence of why I shouldn't bother to post, even in a forums such as this one. It's tiring, sickening, depressing, angering, disappointing, lamenting, saddening, etc etc to have this continuity of games as a hobby, and games as a "community"--- or lack of??? "community"??? I just can't.
Also thank you for your post, I was finally able to let this out of me. And to everyone here, thank you for your contribution, gives me a little hope that there's people out there like me in regards to the whole concern of the existence of this very thread. Maybe one day I'll make a lengthy post to get everything out of me, but until then, I'll post here when my spirit is up to it.
I was watching the direct with my boyfriend and boy I was embarrased from the beginning when the Xenoblade designs popped up. You'd need to pay me good money to play a game like that in front of anyone.
I wish there was a game that sexualised men in such a shameless way that made the dudebro audience gasp in shame like I do. *cue the batman/catwoman inverted roles video*
I wish there was a game that sexualised men in such a shameless way that made the dudebro audience gasp in shame like I do. *cue the batman/catwoman inverted roles video*
Not sexualised men, but TLOU II made them "uncomfortable" with
Abby's sex scene
there's only one that i can think of but it still sexualizes women even worse than that i wil post the character design but won't say the name.
I wish I'd never said "performatively woke" in the cyberpunk trans thread, because while it describes how I feel about this forum sometimes (where it's supposed to be progressive but certain topics, especially ones with anime women, get filled with chuds), I feel like I handed chuds another club to beat us with and another term to misuse and beat into the ground. I feel I owe all of you an apology. I am so sorry that I said that and did not choose my words more carefully. I don't know how many people saw or read my post because I tend to panic and run out of topics or panic when I see alerts, which makes me a drive-by/seldom poster, which will obviously make my posts more sus. I don't know what to do about that, other than to make a small effort to post more, but I've got so much going on in my life right now that I keep forgetting. But this forum needs to do better about these topics and I'm ashamed to have hurt good discourse in any way.
But yeah, my heart sank as soon as I saw the reveal in the Direct because I knew what the discussion would be like. It isn't even just on Era, games discussion is a boy's club everywhere, it's just maddening here because it's supposed to be better. I'm not blaming the mods or staff, I know mods post in here and have lots of interesting things to add to the discussion, it'a more me just feeling fed up after decades of boys' club bullshit.
But yeah, my heart sank as soon as I saw the reveal in the Direct because I knew what the discussion would be like. It isn't even just on Era, games discussion is a boy's club everywhere, it's just maddening here because it's supposed to be better. I'm not blaming the mods or staff, I know mods post in here and have lots of interesting things to add to the discussion, it'a more me just feeling fed up after decades of boys' club bullshit.
I sympathize with your stress, I definitely feel it a lot myself when I get an alert, and I think it's pretty much always a good choice to bail on an internet argument for the sake of mental health for what it's worth. The conversation surrounding this reveal has been difficult to stomach although I understand as a man my perspective on that isn't worth quite as much. I came in here basically because I felt like venting and hoped to see a more empathetic discussion, and was relieved to find it. It just sucks that women have to go into a specific cubby, even here, to get some semblance of a reasonable space.
for you mental health i suggest avoiding these three topics, tlou2, tlj, and xc2. these three topics that eve i have contributed to i admit bring out the worst in resetera,
I've been feeling this way as well, as of late. The Mythra thread is rough. I almost want to make it, it's own thread, but we can stop with the posts that are like, "I'm a women and I think blank?" or "I'm african american and I think, blank."
I feel like these are always followed by rough takes and reminds me of the white twitter guy that kept saying he was black, etc. People forget women can be misogynistic and poc of color can be racist towards their own race etc. It's really grating lately.
You shouldn't feel bad at all. You are far from the first to call Era performative woke in actual good faith. There is no way to know how certain types of people will in bad faith try to turn around and use progressive things in return.
Let's not pretend that Pyra's personality isn't one that's designed by men for a male audience. The blushing, easily-embarrassed girl who dots around the MC is a trope that is rife in anime and manga and occasionally makes its way to JRPGs. This character-trope is used a lot in anime and manga because it appeals to introverted men who get afraid of women with specific interests or complex personalities. She has very little agency to her character besides being "blushy-crushy" for Rex and the male audience.
And please don't say I'm criticizing actual women with shy personalities because I'm not doing that anymore than people who call out the manic pixie dream girl trope are criticizing women with eccentric personalities.
I haven't gone back to look in depth, but yeah, it wasn't great when I exited out of it. There was a post I made where I worry I gave the more disingenuous users more ammunition to work with re: female characters in games with large breasts. There's nothing wrong with Pyra having large breasts, but considering her proportions (she's extremely, extremely slim for breasts of that size), along with her sexualized character design and the way the game objectifies her with camera angles, it's awful. I really like Pyra as a character, along with a lot of the female characters from XC2, but the designs undermine some great character writing*.
It's tough, because there is a societal issue where large breasts are considered inherently sexual, but it's damn hard to have that conversation within the context of video game design, because so many female characters are extremely sexualized and then objectified. Following that, there is a societal issue of small breasts being considered unfeminine or childlike, but within the content of some video games and a lot of anime, characters with small breasts are frequently sexualized characters that look extremely underage. Xenoblade Chronicles X was a weird thing, because removing the breast slider in the English release gave a loss in body variety, but considering how freakin' young you could make your player character look, I think it was the right decision.
Trying to reconcile ingrained societal issues with breasts with video game character design gives me an ongoing headache.
Happy!Abby to bless the thread:
(*There's a frustration with Takahasi's Xeno games where there are a lot of great female characters and friendships between women, but those damn sexualized designs undermine those aspects, particularly from Xenosaga onward.)
This is actually something I've been thinking about a lot lately and I'm wondering if there are any nice examples of a character with big breasts made in good faith? I totally agree with the concept that there's nothing wrong with a character having a larger bust, but like you point out there almost always comes with it questionable costumes, leering framing, etc. that make it clear the design has an objectifying intent. I'd be curious to see what folks in here think is an alright design, if there are some. It doesn't seem like it should be so hard to make diverse body types without ingrained sexist baggage coming along with it.I haven't gone back to look in depth, but yeah, it wasn't great when I exited out of it. There was a post I made where I worry I gave the more disingenuous users more ammunition to work with re: female characters in games with large breasts. There's nothing wrong with Pyra having large breasts, but considering her proportions (she's extremely, extremely slim for breasts of that size), along with her sexualized character design and the way the game objectifies her with camera angles, it's awful. I really like Pyra as a character, along with a lot of the female characters from XC2, but the designs undermine some great character writing*.
It's tough, because there is a societal issue where large breasts are considered inherently sexual, but it's damn hard to have that conversation within the context of video game design, because so many female characters are extremely sexualized and then objectified. Following that, there is a societal issue of small breasts being considered unfeminine or childlike, but within the content of some video games and a lot of anime, characters with small breasts are frequently sexualized characters that look extremely underage. Xenoblade Chronicles X was a weird thing, because removing the breast slider in the English release gave a loss in body variety, but considering how freakin' young you could make your player character look, I think it was the right decision.
Trying to reconcile ingrained societal issues with breasts with video game character design gives me an ongoing headache.
Happy!Abby to bless the thread:
(*There's a frustration with Takahasi's Xeno games where there are a lot of great female characters and friendships between women, but those damn sexualized designs undermine those aspects, particularly from Xenosaga onward.)
Side note, I really appreciated Abby's character design and the way she was framed in such a human fashion. The game had some issues with representation, but she was definitely not one of them and I can't believe how much Naughty Dog changed my opinion of her from hour 1 to hour 20.
Fully agreed with you both.
It is like loving something means you can't criticize it because you "ruin the hype". It should be the opposite because you improve said game if you criticize it. Devs make games for people to play and criticism is always taken (well when I say always, it depends on the developer. Someone like CDPR has shown they don't care).
Lack of empathy is a good explanation. Nobody is taking away their games. But that doesn't mean that people like us shouldn't get games that have good representation for Women, LGBTQ and POC. Having more variety is a good thing yet to them it feels like we are taking their games away. I guess the good old "fuck them got mine" is a good description.
Agreed. Like at times you forget that those people do exist in here but then out of nowhere you see that no, they do exist.
It hasn't even been a week and so many times did I get dragged into arguments that go nowhere because people don't want to understand your perspective and why something might offend you or make you feel something. Sometimes I think there are kids on here and if that was the case I can understand that some people might be immature but that doesn't explain everyone and there are many older people who spew ignorant stuff anyway.
Oh well, at least we got this thread full lovely people. They can't take that away from us.
There's a lot of layers behind that ask. While technically correct, part of what we preach is "listen to the actual marginalized groups." On a multinational, multicultural forum like ERA, it's very complicated.
In theory, it's as simple as this: if I'm hearing women say "this is good," it's not my place to shout them down. Similarly, if they're saying "this is bad," it's also not my place to shout them down.
So it's important for people holding that identity to express their opinion under that identity. Especially on a male-dominated forum. Otherwise we're talking over them.
The part where it gets complicated is that stuff like this often ends up being split based on where you are. If I go to women in other communities, I may find people disproportionately positive about Pyra/Mythra and probably even some psyched to cosplay. On ERA, I will disproportionately find people embarrassed and disgusted by the design.
It ends up being a conversation that, in an ideal world, happens between those women & then we act on it... But as a forum of mostly males, we're pretty limited in that regard. So we share our perspective based on what we learn from the women around us.
Any time I engage in a thread regarding the Xenoblade 2 character designs I come out of it feeling so insulted by the male userbase here.
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I have the first Xenoblade on 3ds but the sequel's bullshit makes me never want to play it. Is it as bad on that front?
You mean like "cushie blushie time"? Hell no, just skeevy outfits that you can definitely have better looking armor over. XCX is also better than XB2 in that regard... XB2 went anime in a way the series hasn't been since xenogears (except the whole crucifixion of that pink plushie anime thing... thats still wierd)
Best way to sum it up, XB and XCX seem like they were made by same team, XB2 had guest creator Master Roshi involved (there are some good story beats in it... but XB2 is a game that I wouldn't play in public because it's like those "moments when your parents/friends walk in and see you watching anime "
I put that game out of my mind for so long I forgot how bad they looked until the smash trailer
Project triangle looks great character design wise though
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there's only one that i can think of but it still sexualizes women even worse than that i wil post the character design but won't say the name.
I feel like this is quite a bit different since even to people attracted to men I get the feeling this character is supposed to illicit an uncomfortable feeling, not titillation. That's mainly due to the face though.
As a result it kinda looks like it falls into the "depraved homosexual/trans person" trope hole.
I think an example of a male character being designed to titillate in a way that made straight men uncomfortable was the main dude from Final Fantasy Mobius
The hypocrisy of the "my censorship" crowd kinda showed itself back then.
I could be wrong but I dimly remember someone bringing up Voldo from Soul Calibur as an example of male sexualisation in this discussion ages ago, as if the design and animation isn't supposed to make the player uncomfortable rather than cater to desire.I feel like this is quite a bit different since even to people attracted to men I get the feeling this character is supposed to illicit an uncomfortable feeling, not titillation. That's mainly due to the face though.
As a result it kinda looks like it falls into the "depraved homosexual/trans person" trope hole.
I think an example of a male character being designed in a way that made straight men uncomfortable was the main dude from Final Fantasy Mobius
The hypocrisy of the "my censorship" crowd kinda showed itself back then.
I feel like this is quite a bit different since even to people attracted to men I get the feeling this character is supposed to illicit an uncomfortable feeling, not titillation. That's mainly due to the face though.
As a result it kinda looks like it falls into the "depraved homosexual/trans person" trope hole.
I think an example of a male character being designed to titillate in a way that made straight men uncomfortable was the main dude from Final Fantasy Mobius
The hypocrisy of the "my censorship" crowd kinda showed itself back then.
You don't even need to get out of Xenoblade 2 for this case. Plenty of people criticize Rex design with being a dude in a stupid armor and short parts, and praise Pyra's design consisting in... boob armor and hot pants.
Beyond the sexualization part lots of dudes don't realize how stupid these hypersexualized desgins look on women, yet more tame examples on male designs are perceived more harsh.
"someone" aka lots of people, because it was certainly some of them, I remember.
Stupid.Sexy.Voldo.
Zangief or Kratos too, btw.
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I feel like someone should ironically post the variant of "her ass is a part of her character"
Don't forget the ever popular using one women's post to have a go at another woman and accuse her of dismissing other women! Felt like hitting my head against the wall when I saw that one.
🙃me: well maybe the Smash thread will be good for a laff
me five minutes later:
Last time I stepped into a Xenoblade thread was late 2017. I figured it'd be better now but it's still the same dismissive horny bullshit.
Yeah, I'll even admit that I myself was way more harsh on Vaan in FFXII than Ashe, who objectively looks way sillier, for years. There's probably some sort of social study to be had there.
Honestly I just think a lot of JRPG designs look plain silly because the surrounding world-building rarely if ever supports them or makes them feel cohesive. I can like the games well enough but it's just exasperating to have that one aspect just be plain bad on a technical and artistic level.
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as an aside I have big boobs and your post was absolutely correct. it's not body shaming to say that a) big-boobed women exist irl but they generally don't have a figure like Pyra's b) Pyra doesn't look like that for representation but because they want to pander to horny dudes