Why is it Latin@ folk are uncomfortable or don't want to talk about race?

[Advance.Wars.Sgt.]

For me this is a discussion that has been a long time coming, but that Gina Rodriguez thread finally pushed me over the edge.

The original topic of said thread was looking to explore why Gina Rodriguez not only has a habit of downplaying black representation in favor of Latin@ ones, but also why she never includes visibly black Latin@ as APART of latin@ representation.

And, true to form, when the very idea of her possibly harboring a racial duality animus towards darker skinned latin@ is questioned (intentional or otherwise), THAT discussion is summarily swept inside in order to partake in the semantically tangential argument of "latinx" usage.

This isn't the first time I've seen erasure of the Afro Latin@ experience in discussion treated as an afterthought, as I have on multiple instances brought this up to Latin@ members in other topics; some giving acknowledgement to the phenomena while others chalking it up to a difference in culture.

So maybe in this thread I can potentially receive some answers: Why is it that race is regarded as some invisible force in Latin@ culture, when its manifestation is apparent not only in attitude but in social structure at large?

My issue is.....the sentiments I express are not necessarily my own, but ARE the very real thoughts and words I've seen expressed by Afro Latin@ who struggle living in societies where they are considered neither black or Hispanic. And so when I see a topic that could have very well delved, if only a little, into why that is, only for it to derail into an essentially meaningless nonsequitur, all I'm left thinking is "Why?"

 

[DOT_mjo]

Not Afro-Latino, just Latino here but I think a lot of the problems stem from us viewing ourselves as "not completely white, but hey we are a step ahead of blacks". Hell, some Puerto Rican's don't even like to acknowledge the fact that our ancestory is African & Taino. Even being light skin, it's frustrating to talk about race because so many people want to tell you you are white. You are on this binary playing field, 0 being black and 1 being white, and your stuck right in the middle. You aren't black but you definitely don't feel or want to be labeled white, so what do you do? And that's only from my lightskin experience. I can't imagine being told I'm too black to be Latino or too Latino to be black. All in all, I feel that the unwillingness to talk about race stems from a fear of either being considered black or having to face the same amount of racism that blacks face.

 

[CitizenVectron]

Why are you using the @ symbol?

 

[Roven]

W@t

 

[entremet]

Hispanics are an incredibly varied demographic, racially, economically, and so on.

Plus there is the whole brainwashing of colorism as well. It's very complex topic.

However, Hispanics have historically been more apt to pair up interracially as well in love and marriage.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Why are you using the @ symbol?

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Latino + Latina = Latin@

 

[Fer]

Why are you using the @ symbol?

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Latino / Latina = Latin@

 

[Static]

Post removed as it continues to derail the topic.

 

[nemoral]

When did we swap Latinx for Latin@?

 

[Anacaona]

It's because we're not raised with the concept of race. Here in the states you have to specify what race you're when you fill government documents. In Latam (or at least in my country) such thing does not exists. We don't take into account race. The whitest girl can date the darkest dude and no one it's gonna say a damn thing. It's just normal.

My mom is white as hell, my dad is black as fuck lol. I'm just a bit darker than my mom.

My siblings and I have all kind of colors.

 

[Killthee]

Is latinx out?

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Several posters derailed the Gina Rodríguez thread with their displeasure at the Latinx term so I'm guessing op is trying to avoid that here by using @.

 

[Advance.Wars.Sgt.]

Why are you using the @ symbol?

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1. It was expressed in the Gina Rodriquez thread this is the way they understand gender neutral formalities, so I accomodated accordingly.
2.) I want to limit any disengagement from the topic at hand into another side-discussion about language as much as possible, as that isn't the point of this thread

 

[ArnoldJRimmer]

I lived in Colombia till I was 9 years old. Came from a middle class family. I can only speak for my own experience, but man, were people racist. Pretty much anyone we knew, and we too thought of ourselves as, as someone above mentioned, one step ahead of black latinos.

This was a long time ago, so I don't know how things have changed or even how representative my experience was, but that's what I recall. Just because you are a person of color doesn't mean you can't be a racist ass.

And a lot of central and South America being extremely religious, of course, we also tended to be extremely bigoted towards the LGBTQ.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I'm pretty sure the term "Latin@" is MORE prone to thread derailing than "Latinx"...

 

[nemoral]

2.) I want to limit any disengagement from the topic at hand into another side-discussion about language as much as possible, as that isn't the point of this thread

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Good intent, but introducing a term lots of people don't know just guarantees that people will still be asking about it on page 13. You might consider defining it early in the OP, not that people read the OP, generally.

 

[Post Reply]

Two threads about the same topic derailed in the same manner. Amazing.

 

[entremet]

Two threads about the same topic derailed in the same manner. Amazing.

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I can see why though. Latinx is a term that Hispanics never invented and it's being used to describe them. It comes off as very paternalistic and disrespectful as It originated in American college campuses, not any Hispanic dominated institution.

I have my qualms with the terms but I can see the term comes from good intentions, but it's by design condescending. I just use Hispanics these days to avoid the discussion.

 

[Advance.Wars.Sgt.]

It's because we're not raised with the concept of race. Here in the states you have to specified what race you're when you fill government documents. In Latam (or at least in my country) such thing does not exists. We don't take into account race. The whitest girl can date the darkest dude and no one it's gonna say a damn thing. It's just normal.

My mom is white as hell, my dad is black as fuck lol. I had my mother's skin complexion tho.

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LatAm may not have the concept of race as it is blatantly identified in America, but race by way of social interaction, status, and visibility/inclusion are virtually no different I would say. Like, it's no coincidence the very bottom of LatAm societies where darker skinned Latin@ live are dominated by those individuals.

Also, with regard to Gina Rodriguez and her fight for Latin@ representation, I so early put forth in that thread where her championing sentiments were when Christina Milian was a thing, or why she can't get behind the likes of Amara Le Negra or Zoe Saldana, the very same Zoe Saldana who IIRC is a prominent cast member in a very popular Marvel movie.

The pattern exhibited not only by Rodriguez but other Latin@ members to not include them as examples of representation is just another note into how colorism and race manifests in thought.

 

[T'Chakku]

It's because we're not raised with the concept of race. Here in the states you have to specify what race you're when you fill government documents. In Latam (or at least in my country) such thing does not exists. We don't take into account race. The whitest girl can date the darkest dude and no one it's gonna say a damn thing. It's just normal.

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lol. Right.
Thanks for the laugh.

 

[entremet]

lol. Right.
Thanks for the laugh.

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Yeah lol. Race is very prevalent in hispanic culture. It may not discussed out loud, it is barely discussed out loud in America, but it is there.

Then there is the whole problematic issues with Colorism.

 

[Pau]

The privileged classes in our countries have always been from predominately European ancestry. Our institutions are built on racism just not in the direct way of Jim Crow. But we've been sold an idea of "mestizaje" so if we are all mixed anyways, we can't possibly be racists.

I really recommend Racial Subordination in Latin America if you want a more in depth understanding of the above.

Folks don't want to acknowledge that
we have privilege and that we are systematically holding down a group of people. Easier to just ignore it.

 

[krazen]

It's because we're not raised with the concept of race. Here in the states you have to specify what race you're when you fill government documents. In Latam (or at least in my country) such thing does not exists. We don't take into account race. The whitest girl can date the darkest dude and no one it's gonna say a damn thing. It's just normal.

My mom is white as hell, my dad is black as fuck lol. I'm just a bit darker than my mom.

My siblings and I have all kind of colors.

Click to shrink...

What country? Because that's not LATAM as a whole where generally the rich class/entertainment class tend to be almost solely of those of heavy european lineage. We aren't going to even touch how the indigenous people are treated in LATAM as whole also.

I also take umbrage with the, 'Hey, I don't see it! Ive got black people in my family! We raise them to be colorblind' because thats a common excuse here in the US and we all know how our race issues are going here, LOL.

 

[entremet]

What country? Because that's not LATAM as a whole where generally the rich class/entertainment class tend to be almost solely of those of heavy european lineage. We aren't going to even touch how the indigenous people are treated in LATAM as whole also.

I also take umbrage with the, 'Hey, I don't see it! Ive got black people in my family! We raise them to be colorblind' because thats a common excuse here in the US and we all know how our race issues are going here, LOL.

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Look at the Latin TV networks as well. The majority of the on air talent are white. Same with soap operas.

 

[Hops]

just fucking say latino, jesus christ

 

[Deleted member 6230]

I can see why though. Latinx is a term that Hispanics never invented and it's being used to describe them. It comes off as very paternalistic and disrespectful as It originated in American college campuses, not any Hispanic dominated institution.

I have my qualms with the terms but I can see the term comes from good intentions, but it's by design condescending. I just use Hispanics these days to avoid the discussion.

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That's not true at all. "LatinX" is a term that came from women, non-binary, and trans Hispanic activists. To say it's a term that never came from Hispanic people is absolutely wrong.

 

[Chojin]

It's because we're not raised with the concept of race. Here in the states you have to specify what race you're when you fill government documents. In Latam (or at least in my country) such thing does not exists. We don't take into account race. The whitest girl can date the darkest dude and no one it's gonna say a damn thing. It's just normal.

My mom is white as hell, my dad is black as fuck lol. I'm just a bit darker than my mom.

My siblings and I have all kind of colors.

Click to shrink...

I'm happy that its not an issue for you. But its got historical roots. I'm not shocked at all. Casta has social repercussions that continue to this day. Heck even in the Philippines. We treat the Aeta and other Negrito peoples of the country with disdain. My mother used to be called Baluga in school because she had darker skin than the rest of my aunts and uncles. Baluga is another Negrito people there.

So I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you. This directly has to do with the Spanish and their concept of race.

If you're not familiar with sociedad de castas should read the article.

 

[krazen]

Look at the Latin TV networks as well. The majority of the on air talent are white. Same with soap operas.

Click to shrink...

 

[Deleted member 46493]

Latinos come from a continent with ~700m people ranging from blond and blue-eyed Argentineans to Afrolatino Caribbeans. Latinos don't consider themselves similar to each other e.g. I am Peruvian and grew up in Peru. I was never taught or told I had some sort of racial/ethnic brotherhood with say, people from Mexico, Puerto Rico, or even countries close by like Ecuador. With some countries, we even had rivalries. I was Peruvian and that's it.

As you can probably imagine, there is plenty of color-based racism inside each country which translates to the immigrants who move to the US. Some Latino countries have a very small amount of African immigrants so there's more ignorance about them and their struggles. Even in the US, I didn't see any Afrolatinos until I moved to NYC (and I used to live in Texas).

 

[entremet]

That's not true at all. "LatinX" is a term that came from women, non-binary, and trans Hispanic activists. To say it's a term that never came from Hispanic people is absolutely wrong.

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Is there something on this I read about? Because if you look at searches, they dominate university references and texts.

 

[Advance.Wars.Sgt.]

The privileged classes in our countries have always been from predominately European ancestry. Our institutions are built on racism just not in the direct way of Jim Crow. But we've been sold an idea of "mestizaje" so if we are all mixed anyways, we can't possibly be racists.

I really recommend Racial Subordination in Latin America if you want a more in depth understanding of the above.

Folks don't want to acknowledge that
we have privilege and that we are systematically holding down a group of people. Easier to just ignore it.

Click to shrink...

The ignoring part, among many other things, is what perplexes me the most, because it automatically gloms Afro Latino into the entire Hispanic diaspora, while simultaneously ridding them of their voices and experiences in a society where prejudice/colorism can easily be observed.

It's blatant erasure, and unfortunately it's a problem many don't want to call out all for the sanctity of "culture".

 

[DrewFu]

1. It was expressed in the Gina Rodriquez thread this is the way they understand gender neutral formalities, so I accomodated accordingly.

Click to shrink...

This may be the most ridiculous millennial PC sentence I've ever read. Sounds like something from South Park.

Is just "Latino" no longer allowed or something?

 

[Advance.Wars.Sgt.]

just fucking say latino, jesus christ

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Address the colorism in your culture, Jesus christ!!

 

[entremet]

Address the colorism in your culture, Jesus christ!!

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Damn, bro. This comes off really bad lol. I get that's it supposed to be a clever retort.

 

[Advance.Wars.Sgt.]

This may be the most ridiculous millennial 2019-esque sentence I've ever read. Sounds like something from South Park.

Is just "Latino" no longer allowed or something?

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Depends - do Afro-Latinos exist to you or do you just ignore them like you did the topic of this thread?

 

[MANUELF]

At least here in Mexico afro mexicans are around 1% of the population and focused on the south of the country so you can live your whole life without ever meeting an afro mexican but yeah I admit we have a colorism focused rascism problem

 

[Advance.Wars.Sgt.]

Damn, bro. This comes off really bad lol. I get that's it supposed to be a clever retort.

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You're right - I shouldn't respond to people who clearly have no interest dismantling colorism and anti-blackness, so that and my other quote will be my last response to those users.

 

[DrewFu]

Depends - do Afro-Latinos exist to you or do you just ignore them like you did the topic of this thread?

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What the fuck are you even going on about? Using Latino as a general term regardless of gender has nothing to do with Afro-Latinos. Why are you even bringing that into what I said?

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Light skin Hispanics think they're better than dark skin Hispanics. It's simple, and doesn't need a detailed nuanced thread.

 

[Anacaona]

Let me rephrase it. There is racism, which can be manifested in: Social/work environments and other areas. My previous post was of the family (and or dating) side.

Sorry for not being more specific.

I'm Dominican.

LatAm may not have the concept of race as it is blatantly identified in America, but race by way of social interaction, status, and visibility/inclusion are virtually no different I would say. Like, it's no coincidence the very bottom of LatAm societies where darker skinned Latin@ live are dominated by those individuals.

Also, with regard to Gina Rodriguez and her fight for Latin@ representation, I so early put forth in that thread where her championing sentiments were when Christina Milian was a thing, or why she can't get behind the likes of Amara Le Negra or Zoe Saldana, the very same Zoe Saldana who IIRC is a prominent cast member in a very popular Marvel movie.

The pattern exhibited not only by Rodriguez but other Latin@ members to not include them as examples of representation is just another note into how colorism and race manifests in thought.

Click to shrink...

Yeah lol. Race is very prevalent in hispanic culture. It may not discussed out loud, it is barely discussed out loud in America, but it is there.

Then there is the whole problematic issues with Colorism.

Click to shrink...

What country? Because that's not LATAM as a whole where generally the rich class/entertainment class tend to be almost solely of those of heavy european lineage. We aren't going to even touch how the indigenous people are treated in LATAM as whole also.

I also take umbrage with the, 'Hey, I don't see it! Ive got black people in my family! We raise them to be colorblind' because thats a common excuse here in the US and we all know how our race issues are going here, LOL.

Click to shrink...

I'm happy that its not an issue for you. But its got historical roots. I'm not shocked at all. Casta has social repercussions that continue to this day. Heck even in the Philippines. We treat the Aeta and other Negrito peoples of the country with disdain. My mother used to be called Baluga in school because she had darker skin than the rest of my aunts and uncles. Baluga is another Negrito people there.

So I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you. This directly has to do with the Spanish and their concept of race.

If you're not familiar with sociedad de castas should read the article.

Click to shrink...

I do agree with these posts.

 

[Advance.Wars.Sgt.]

Light skin Hispanics think they're better than dark skin Hispanics. It's simple, and doesn't need a detailed nuanced thread.

Click to shrink...

I'd contend the fact its treated as something which doesn't exist is reason enough to at least highlight the pattern.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Maybe it has to do with the fact that hispanic/latino is sometimes used as a race in the US? Don't the news, police, etc say shit like "the suspects are two hispanic/latino men" , they wouldn't say that if they thought people would have problems picturing how those two men may look like.

In short from what I have seen latino/Hispanic has been used in the US in the same way mestizo is used in Mexico for example.

 

[Royalan]

This was actually a central plot thread of last season's Love and Hip Hop Miami. Amara La Negra is an Afro-Latino artist, and throughout the season she has several hostile encounters with lighter skin Latinos who blatantly deny her right both her blackness and Latin heritage. It's a very challenging dynamic that Amara herself has been very proactive about.

I wish I could embed the Amara La Negra video, but alas its been pulled from YouTube. You can venture to VH1 to watch it:

http://www.vh1.com/video-clips/r8v1...walks-out-of-her-session-with-young-hollywood

 

[Viewt]

Light skin Hispanics think they're better than dark skin Hispanics. It's simple, and doesn't need a detailed nuanced thread.

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Yeah, this is a pretty straight-forward situation. Growing up in Miami in a Cuban family, asserting whiteness (and therefore "superiority") over darker Latin people was extremely common.

There's also the flip side with internalized racism on the part of darker-skinned people in the community, which is sad and unnecessary, but I feel less equipped to analyze that bit, as I am not Afro-Latino/a/etc.

 

[Son Lamar]

Is latinx out?

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Lmao

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I'd contend the fact its treated as something which doesn't exist is reason enough to at least highlight the pattern.

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Forgive me, I didn't mean to Infer this thread is unnecessary. Rather that people are tiptoeing around the issue when it is plain as day. Gina Rodriguez does not see Black Hispanics as Hispanics, and she wants to highlight herself and her identity over blacks.

 

[Bard]

Brazil is racist as fuck, so much so people elected a huge racist to the highest office in the land.

Race does get discussed here, but honestly it echoes a lot of the bullshit seen in the US in regards to treatment of indigenous and afro-brazilians. People saying that racial minorities are all treated the same, that it's their fault for not rising above their circumstances and that those circumstances are even their own fault.

It's fucking infuriating seeing the garbage in chief on the campaign trail say that a colony of slave descendants are all fat, lazy and not even fit to procreate and people fucking elect that gigantic cunt.

So yeah, I can only speak for Brazil but it's pretty much the same level as if not worse than the US in a lot of ways.

 

[Vulcano's Assistant]

Race is absolutely not ignored. Indigenous movements are just as common and as necessary in Latin American Countries as in any place that was an European Colony.

But the thing is that the voices of immigrant Latinos speak different interests once they are no longer on their countries. They leave behind those social structures and as a completely different kind of minority they try to group together under the wing of the biggest group or more powerfully represented nationality of origin within that minority.

 

[Baccus]

Latino is not a race, and not even a culture, we're wildly different people who speak the same language. That's all.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Address the colorism in your culture, Jesus christ!!

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if you had the minimal understanding about the region you would call it racism and not colorism

 

[Advance.Wars.Sgt.]

Brazil is racist as fuck, so much so people elected a huge racist to the highest office in the land.

Race does get discussed here, but honestly it echoes a lot of the bullshit seen in the US in regards to treatment of indigenous and afro-brazilians. People saying that racial minorities are all treated the same, that it's their fault for not rising above their circumstances and that those circumstances are even their own fault.

It's fucking infuriating seeing the garbage in chief on the campaign trail say that a colony of slave descendants are all fat, lazy and not even fit to procreate and people fucking elect that gigantic cunt.

So yeah, I can only speak for Brazil but it's pretty much the same level as if not worse than the US in a lot of ways.

Click to shrink...

One of my friends from high school is Afro Brazilian, but you wouldn't know it because his phenotypic expression came more from his mother's side who is lighter skinned and has Portugese ancestry.

It was actually my talks with him and how poorly his grandfather would be received (visibly black) there, and how downtrodden the conditions the darker skin population lived in when he visited which gave me my first inkling f how race manifested in LatAm. I imagine his experience isn't/wasn't any different from other Afro-Latin@ who have the skin tone to "pass".