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HyperionX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
295
It's not that it's a bad movie per se, it just doesn't build on top of the last movie nor does it build towards anything itself. It's basically a standalone SW movie that would have made sense if it wasn't part of the Sequel Trilogy. It's flaws would have been forgivable if it felt like part 2 of 3 rather than what it is.
 

BetterOffEd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
857
It's evident that many of the die hard defenders are Rain Johnson fans rather than Star Wars fans. See the willingness to throw TFA under the bus and insist that TLJ did all that it could with what it was given. Once it became clear the TLJ criticism wasn't coming from a small contingent, the JJ hate cranked up to 11

I had no idea who this guy was before TLJ came out, or that he had such a cult of personality surrounding him. Even the best authors miss the mark now and then, so it's bizarre identifying the flaws in TLJ is such sacrilege, especially when this author has such a short resume as one
 

Deleted member 9486

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,867
Sometimes its nice to discuss things you enjoy with likeminded people, but I agree with where you're coming from. Your opinion becomes subject to opposition as if it were presented as a fact and discussions turn into arguments over having the "correct" opinion regardless of the fact that its subjective content.

And Im guilty of that too, it becomes easy to get caught up in when that's the norm rather than the exception. But for the most part Ill try to exercise some self awareness when I can.

Yeah, it's just hard to find those communities of likeminded people when it comes to movies and shows. Movie threads tend to be like review threads, tv show threads are filled with people hate watching and bitching about the show weekly etc. Gaming at least has the OTs which tend to be hangout threads for people playing and enjoying the game (especially after they get moved to Hangouts), game specific sub-Reddits that are generally positive (exceptions like Destiny 2 aside) and so on.

I mean there's nothing wrong with it and plenty of people clearly enjoy arguing over movies and what not. I just don't and I choose to limit negativity and cynicism in my life and just focus on enjoying the things I enjoy and if I discuss them at all it's just with people who also enjoy them. Life's too short to not focus on positivity IMO.
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,228
Toronto
Probably the same reason those same people can't go five minutes without talking about how much they don't like it. Its not that nobody underatands that you don't like it, its that nobody else actually cares.
Seriously. It's been six months of non-stop hyperbolic whining. There's one guy on here who's said he felt "punched in the gut" on probably a hundred separate occasions.

We get it.
 

Doctor_Thomas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,680
This, 100%, goes both ways.

Shock - People like different things.

If you liked it, you have a good movie you can enjoy.
If you didn't like it, you don't ever have to watch it again.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,443
Great contributions to the thread. Maybe you could reply to some actual comments instead of derailing with strawman bullshit.
Ok.

It's not that it's a bad movie per se, it just doesn't build on top of the last movie nor does it build towards anything itself. It's basically a standalone SW movie that would have made sense if it wasn't part of the Sequel Trilogy. It's flaws would have been forgivable if it felt like part 2 of 3 rather than what it is.
Here's the reminder that literally every plot point is a continuation of the most important things established in TFA, to this day I have never seen anyone answer the question at the end:

Resistance is packing up trying to get away from their base on D'Qar. Direct continuation from TFA where, if you don't recall, Starkiller base was charging up to fire on the Resistance base. FO knew where they were. FO forces were not concentrated at Starkiller base, and it's destruction did not destroy the FO ability to swiftly enter into the galaxy conquering mode.

Finn wakes up from coma, shouting REY, first thing he asks anyone he recognizes, 'Where's Rey?' Direct continuation of his attitude and mission from TFA. If you don't recall, he told Han he specifically came to Starkiller to get Rey.

Luke and Rey on Ach-To, don't know how you can miss the direct continuation there.

Snoke and Kylo. end of TFA, Snoke orders Hux to bring Kylo to him so he can complete his training. Direct continuation, where Snoke berates Kylo for his failure to take out Rey. I personally assume that this convo could itself be an aspect of his training, though it isn't necessarily that, could just be what it appears to be, a dressing down for failure. Training to come later.

That all work? How does TLJ disregard things set up in TFA?
 

Ricky_R

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,997
I'm no huge SW fan, I just enjoy the movies. I recently watched TLJ and honestly tought it would be better. Everything about it felt below TFA and I didn't even enjoy TFA as much as I thought I was going to. Still, TFA felt far better to me.

TLJ didn't have the charm. Some scenes felt pretty out of place, the pacing wasn't as tight, some characters lines and moments looked lame, etc. I don't know, it honestly didn't feel like a good SW movie for me.

However, I have no issues with those who enjoyed it.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
Disclaimer: I liked the movie

I think "both sides" (yuck) need to chill out. Just reading 90% of the comments here, you get the sense that everyone's problem is with the group that disagreed with their opinion. If you disliked it, it's the defenders who are obnoxious. If you liked it, it's the haters.

Can we just agree that fanboys are fucking annoying, along with people who assert their opinions as indisputable fact?

I will say when this bleeds over into box office discussion there was a lot of hyperbole about the movie bombing from people who, what a coincidence, also hated the movie. You can't pretend there wasn't some agenda there (towards something that is ultimately pretty meaningless).
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,363
New York
It's not an issue of disliking it, it's the fucking outrage motherfuckers having over it. Calm the fuuuuck down. It's Star Wars, not a damned religion.
 

Cbrun44

Member
I missed the theatrical showings so I wasn't quite sure why the film was getting so much hate. How bad could it be I thought. So I decided to grab the 4K UHD release. Now I understand. Not a good film.

Not absolutely terrible either but it just felt off. I wanted to enjoy it but it just didn't work. Unfortunate.
 

jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,068
NYC
Thread backfire incoming, it's actually the exact opposite. The critics can't accept that people liked it, and they also can't accept that a huge number of them hate the movie for thinly veiled sexist and racist reasons.

Tokenizing the black lead is one of the reasons I don't enjoy TLJ , so you're off base here.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,144
I gave TLJ a 7.5 out of 10 (I would give TFA a 6 and Rogue One a 5, for context), and even I think most of the complaining about it is massively overblown. It feels to me like the people who love the movie the most and the people who hate it the most are both in the same boat - they both love Star Wars as a franchise too much to think about it in any way outside of an emotional one. The movie is essentially a "for or against" in a lot of people's minds and there isn't a lot of room for discussion: it's either the worst film since the prequels (or the worst Star Wars ever) or the best movie since Empire to a lot of people, and when you're coming at a film from such an extreme point of view you're bound to run into people who want to convince you otherwise.

And I'm gonna be honest, anyone who says that Luke's treatment in the film "ruined (their) childhood" is someone whose opinion I just can't take seriously. You want to critique Canto Bight for being too long and too heavily focused on visual effects at the expense of developing the story and the characters in a meaningful manner? Go right ahead. You want to complain about Finn having very little to do overall or Captain Phasma basically being an ascended cameo appearance? Awesome, right there with you. The movie has a LOT of flaws and it's impossible to deny that unless you're not paying attention.

But if your complaints involve things like "Luke should've been there in person and really fought Kylo" or "why wasn't Snoke a super-important Sith Lord"...it's just really hard to look at that as anything other than someone being really overly invested in a movie and being upset it didn't go the way they figured it would.
 

Deleted member 4614

Oct 25, 2017
6,345
Could definitely use a thread filter specifically for discussions about TLJ. They're nauseating.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,319
Nerds have a hard time accepting that people don't like [favorite thing] and usually resort to strawmans to discredit those who don't like [thing]
 

VectorPrime

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
11,781
I loved TFA in large part because I loved the new characters that it introduced, and I felt it laid a great foundation to build off on.

Going into TLJ I wanted Rey to be Rey Nobody and I was hoping they'd be brave enough to kill Luke off. It fulfilled those expectations, while also being a movie I disliked greatly.
 

AHA-Lambda

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,820
I gave TLJ a 7.5 out of 10 (I would give TFA a 6 and Rogue One a 5, for context), and even I think most of the complaining about it is massively overblown. It feels to me like the people who love the movie the most and the people who hate it the most are both in the same boat - they both love Star Wars as a franchise too much to think about it in any way outside of an emotional one. The movie is essentially a "for or against" in a lot of people's minds and there isn't a lot of room for discussion: it's either the worst film since the prequels (or the worst Star Wars ever) or the best movie since Empire to a lot of people, and when you're coming at a film from such an extreme point of view you're bound to run into people who want to convince you otherwise.

And I'm gonna be honest, anyone who says that Luke's treatment in the film "ruined (their) childhood" is someone whose opinion I just can't take seriously. You want to critique Canto Bight for being too long and too heavily focused on visual effects at the expense of developing the story and the characters in a meaningful manner? Go right ahead. You want to complain about Finn having very little to do overall or Captain Phasma basically being an ascended cameo appearance? Awesome, right there with you. The movie has a LOT of flaws and it's impossible to deny that unless you're not paying attention.

But if your complaints involve things like "Luke should've been there in person and really fought Kylo" or "why wasn't Snoke a super-important Sith Lord"...it's just really hard to look at that as anything other than someone being really overly invested in a movie and being upset it didn't go the way they figured it would.

This basically echoes my thoughts pretty much entirely.
 

gforguava

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,721
If you want to talk about a film I am going to criticize you when your thoughts on the matter are vapid nonsense. A large swath of the negative discourse on here about The Last Jedi was worthless, it was little more than people wanting to have their say even when they had nothing to actually say.

You disliked it? Fine, more power to you. But then people try to take their dissatisfaction with it and apply that as some sort of valid critique of the film when it is nothing of the sort.
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
I can understand that the backlash since TLJ can feel overblown and get obnoxious to people who enjoyed the movie, especially when a lot of it gets more into nitpicking about decisions they personally didn't like and then it become a back and forth with people who did like it, but there has been some people who have been utterly in denial that TLJ was divisively received by a not-insignificant number of fans for reasons that the film itself was trying to provoke emotions by subverting expectations in order to explicitly shake the viewer up in some type of way.

I think it should at least provoke some empathy in Star Wars fans, especially if you believe Johnson was executing perfectly and purposefully in the way he intended, but that's not the way it has gone. I liked the movie and I even feel it didn't leave us with much to look towards in the future or even defend as leading up to something new or deeper or even just providing a new perspective on the old.
 

Deleted member 9486

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,867
This, 100%, goes both ways.

Shock - People like different things.

If you liked it, you have a good movie you can enjoy.
If you didn't like it, you don't ever have to watch it again.

And the world would be better if both camps would shut the fuck up about it. People generally don't care about other's opinions on things like movies, people just like to share their opinions as strongly and repeatedly as possible.

It makes a some sense around release as that's when reviews and impressions are rolling out. Much less months and years later when it's the same people stating the same opinions (positive or negative) for the umpteenth time.

But that's just internet culture and I can't say much since I post online and have been a forum addict for 20+ years. My biggest flaw by far.
 

Flow

Community Resettler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,340
Florida, USA
I think we have more threads about people disliking tlj than people actually liking it on OT.
You can legit replace "TLJ" with any thing and it will still be the same topic and post
Also Op where have you been when it comes to fan bases and etc. people do this for everything. It goes both ways. Not a big deal. And RLM is boo boo
 

Seductivpancakes

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,790
Brooklyn
The first TLJ OT was filled with people who hated the movie but couldn't be bothered to string coherent arguements to why they hated it and those who can, resorted to extreme nitpicking and claimed nothing happened in the movie.
 

Soj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,733
I enjoy that it's so divisive. I also really love the movie while acknowledging that it has some glaring flaws. Like every single attempt at humour falling completely flat.

Also, I can't put too much stock in RLM's opinion of the movie when Mike spent 5 minutes ridiculing something (the Yoda scene) that he had completely missed the point of.
 

Phrozenflame500

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
2,132
I don't know why people feel the need to have an internet war over a children's movie at all. There are valid reason to like and dislike the movie, and that's fine.
 

SolVanderlyn

I love pineapple on pizza!
Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,513
Earth, 21st Century
Really? It seems like the opposite to me. Everyone who hates it feels the need to shout it from the rooftops.

I guess people notice dissenting opinions more, because they conflict with their own inner thought processes.

No problem with not liking it, some people don't like movies. Many of the things I've read, though, go after the movie with MRA bullshit, hyperbolic whining about how the series is now ruined, their childhood is spoiled, please make this movie non-canon, the film "cucked" Luke, the whole series has been cucked, etc. Obviously there are actual critiques to be made, it's not a perfect movie at all (the casino planet was bad, del Toro's character was an absolute waste and totally pointless), but a lot of crap that I've seen online has echoes of all this garbage vitriol and impotent anger.
Yeah, I agree with this.
 
Oct 27, 2017
679
Because less interest in the ip, which tlj will almost certainly guarantee, will harm something they enjoy. You are ruining the potential for future toys by not liking even the bad ones.
 
Oct 25, 2017
29,586
The first TLJ OT was filled with people who hated the movie but couldn't be bothered to string coherent arguements to why they hated it and those who can, resorted to extreme nitpicking and claimed nothing happened in the movie.
Who would bother when they were constantly either being called sexest or told "forget the past" over and over?
There were like 3 of the same users in there that literally responded that to any criticism
"movie was a tad long"...
"FORGET THE PAST!"

The fanbase was so insufferable at that time I abandoned everything until Rebels was getting ready to return.

I didn't like the direction they took the movie.

Trolling everyone that wanted to see Luke as Luke and a hero again, IN A LIGHT SABER DUEL, was low.

Add in talking about how in the movie they say LET THE PAST DIE, its pretty easy to realize how people could feel let down by the story they ultimately ended up doing, especially when it seemed hallow, logically impaired and was meant to basically just be a huge swerve in terms of everyone's expectations.

And in the end, for me, it wasn't the best movie they could have done with the plot points they wanted to do.
Actually thats what it was specifically
"Let the past die"
 
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Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
No, I watched the Red Letter Media video yesterday, and the scenes of those (quasi-)religious fans cheering at these rally-like corporate events are what inspired this thread.

Yeah, it's really creepy.

I used to see myself as a Star Wars fan, but I have come to realize I am just someone who likes a few of the SW movies and that's it.

The fans are on a whole other level.
 

Raein

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
980
Because some people get a raging hardon for the status quo being upended even when it's upended by shit, which is what TLJ and TFA both were.
 

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,147
I didn't like the direction they took the movie.

Trolling everyone that wanted to see Luke as Luke and a hero again, IN A LIGHT SABER DUEL, was low.

Add in talking about how in the movie they say LET THE PAST DIE, its pretty easy to realize how people could feel let down by the story they ultimately ended up doing, especially when it seemed hallow, logically impaired and was meant to basically just be a huge swerve in terms of everyone's expectations.

And in the end, for me, it wasn't the best movie they could have done with the plot points they wanted to do.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,414
This is the greatest buzzword post of all time.
Yeah that did come off as pretty buzzwordy. All I meant was that some fans like to identify with highly formed opinions on franchises they like and fight about it on the internet because it's easier to argue about a movie than something that actually matters. This applies to both sides.
 

Raein

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
980
I didn't like the direction they took the movie.

Trolling everyone that wanted to see Luke as Luke and a hero again, IN A LIGHT SABER DUEL, was low.

Add in talking about how in the movie they say LET THE PAST DIE, its pretty easy to realize how people could feel let down by the story they ultimately ended up doing, especially when it seemed hallow, logically impaired and was meant to basically just be a huge swerve in terms of everyone's expectations.

And in the end, for me, it wasn't the best movie they could have done with the plot points they wanted to do.

You know what rubs me the worst about that "LET THE PAST DIE" horseshit? They're the fucking shitheads who didn't have the balls to make a new trilogy without CONSTANTLY PULLING IN THE FUCKING PAST TO SELL TOYS. They should have never brought any of the old cast back and just set it in the future, or during the Old Republic and done something new instead of just fellating the fans with nostalgia.

Fuck Disney.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,144
Who would bother when they were constantly either being called sexest or told "forget the past" over and over?
There were like 3 of the same users in there that literally responded that to any criticism
"movie was a tad long"...
"FORGET THE PAST!"

The fanbase was so insufferable at that time I abandoned everything until Rebels was getting ready to return.

Honestly, in my recollection, people with complaints like the movie being too long weren't the ones being yelled at. It was mainly the people whose criticisms involved blatantly emotional reactions or who complained at length about Luke not being a superhero at the end of the movie. Nobody yelled at me for being lukewarm on the film.

You know what rubs me the worst about that "LET THE PAST DIE" horseshit? They're the fucking shitheads who didn't have the balls to make a new trilogy without CONSTANTLY PULLING IN THE FUCKING PAST TO SELL TOYS. They should have never brought any of the old cast back and just set it in the future, or during the Old Republic and done something new instead of just fellating the fans with nostalgia.

Fuck Disney.

You guys do realize that the main villain being the one saying "let the past die" means the movie doesn't agree with that statement, right?
 

Nerrel

Member
Oct 31, 2017
406
I have no problem with the fact that a lot of people don't like the movie. What I do have a problem with is that most of them seem to insist on filling every corner of the internet with comments that it's the worst film ever made, that Star Wars is ruined forever, and that Ryan Johnson is a giant fucking asshole. I think the haters of the movie really need to get over it and start preparing to hate Solo for the next year until IX comes out.
 

HyperionX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
295
Ok.

Here's the reminder that literally every plot point is a continuation of the most important things established in TFA, to this day I have never seen anyone answer the question at the end:

Well yes, the events of TLJ are a direct follow-up of TFA. Thematically, logically, plot direction-wise, they are totally inconsistent. The whole movie was basically a long chase scene that hardly felt like it was part of anything greater. The only thing that worked for me, and felt like a real follow-up to TFA, was Kylo and nothing else.

It will be clearer when Episode 9 comes out. If it ends up being a total mess of a movie, we can point to the Episode 8 as the one that screwed up the trilogy.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,443
Who would bother when they were constantly either being called sexest or told "forget the past" over and over?
There were like 3 of the same users in there that literally responded that to any criticism
"movie was a tad long"...
"FORGET THE PAST!"

The fanbase was so insufferable at that time I abandoned everything until Rebels was getting ready to return.
I searched the phrase "Forget the past" in the OT, only got 15 results, none of which are a response to criticism.

Well yes, the events of TLJ are a direct follow-up of TFA. Thematically, logically, plot direction-wise, they are totally inconsistent. The whole movie was basically a long chase scene that hardly felt like it was part of anything greater. The only thing that worked for me, and felt like a real follow-up to TFA, was Kylo and nothing else.

It will be clearer when Episode 9 comes out. If it ends up being a total mess of a movie, we can point to the Episode 8 as the one that screwed up the trilogy.
They're actually very consistent
-Rey starts TLJ as the same benevolent SW fangirl that she was in TFA
-Finn starts TLJ still worried solely about Rey
-Poe starts TLJ as a hotshot pilot
-Kylo starts TLJ as a Vader fanboy
-The FO and Snoke start the film completely concerned with destroying the resistance & Luke so that they could crush all hope in the galaxy and rule.

TFA left all of these plot threads open and none of the ones presented in TLJ contradict them. Thematically, the ST is about passing the torch of SW to a new generation, TLJ goes in line with that theme.
 
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Chumley

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,651
You know what rubs me the worst about that "LET THE PAST DIE" horseshit? They're the fucking shitheads who didn't have the balls to make a new trilogy without CONSTANTLY PULLING IN THE FUCKING PAST TO SELL TOYS. They should have never brought any of the old cast back and just set it in the future, or during the Old Republic and done something new instead of just fellating the fans with nostalgia.

Fuck Disney.

Lmao

Because while there are certainly legitimate criticisms to made of the film, in my experience most detractors of the film opt to incoherently screech about how it's the worst thing ever made instead of actually forming an argument.
 

Eidan

AVALANCHE
Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,594
I don't have a problem with people disliking the movie. I just think the reasons people have for disliking the movie are often aggressively stupid.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
Why do some fans have such a hard time accepting that some just liked TLJ?

It's just a divisive film, just like ESB was back in the day. I want to say it'll be looked upon fondly by the majority in time, but... Thing is, the internet didn't really exist back then and I think the presence of such a communication tool will keep the debate going on for years and years.

Also people need to acknowledge a lot of the haters DO dislike it because of sexist reasons. Maybe you don't, but to ignore that people constantly call Rey a Mary Sue (and "Mary Sue" is far too often a sexist moniker) not just in TFA but also in this film just does a disservice to criticism of the actual problems with the plot. Not to mention the stupid shit people say about Holdo and Rose in relation to their gender.

Like, there are reasons to dislike it, but I hope we can all acknowledge that fact.
 
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