And him staying on the ship DOES give his story meaning and that he has learned from his own film. He even says so himself.
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We need to talk about narrative inconsistencies in the MCU. SPOILERS EVERYWHERE.
- Thread starter Visanideth
- Start date
The other way I was wondering... doesn't Fury says in Avengers 1 (that discussion scene before the big ship is raided) that Shield started developing those big weapons because they acknowledged there were superior aliens when Thor 1 happened? but he already knew about aliens way before from Cap.Marvel, so?
What's with the discussion of Steve kissing his niece? She's not his niece.
Also, as others already stated, the Iron Spider suit was to save Peter's life.
Also, as others already stated, the Iron Spider suit was to save Peter's life.
Soul stone, and I'm pretty sure he was able to hold it because Natasha sacrificed herself. Be weird if the stone was like, "Yeah I know your best friend just killed herself so you could get me, but you also need to be super strong too!"
Agreed OP, reason why I have little interest with the threat compared to other brilliantly written super hero movies, because MCU contradicts itself all the time. Civil War for instance, it meant nothing, we had a thread about this earlier. Friends no long house mates, but still friends nonetheless. Useless film.
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That's a plot hole and a justifiable one. We're talking about narrative consistency in messages, and across movies happening one directly after the other, not 10 years from each other.
I'm surprised OP didn't mention War Machine.
Last scene of Civil War: I signed the accords because I believed it's the right thing, and I still haven't changed my mind.
First scene in Infinity War: Actually no screw the accords I already paid the price for that
Last scene of Civil War: I signed the accords because I believed it's the right thing, and I still haven't changed my mind.
First scene in Infinity War: Actually no screw the accords I already paid the price for that
Hulk got done the absolute dirtiest. Civil War is also a big narrative distraction, lots of potential that feels like it wasn't followed up on.
Ironically the characters just out of the limelight feel like they got the best narrative arcs, like Nebula.
Ironically the characters just out of the limelight feel like they got the best narrative arcs, like Nebula.
You could argue if Civil War hadn't happened they would've beat Thanos in IW, and the five year time jump wouldn't have happened. It's because the Avengers were fractured that they lost. Who knows who would've lived and died in that scenario
Civil War is absolutely important
Civil War is absolutely important
Neither of those are about him stopping, but about him *handling his powers properly*. Iron Man 3, especially, is about how much of an arrogant shithead he's grown to be, and outliving that, as well as his PTSD from the battle of New York. It was all about breaking out of his shell, and then he realized, he doesn't need all those artificial crutches, he *is* Iron Man.
He hasn't been "wanting out", in fact, one of his key character traits that was *resolved* in Endgame, is that he finally learned to quit trying to be "the shield around earth" and shouldering all those damn responsibilities.
Iron Man's entire arc is about power and balance.
Also, for all those people complaining about holding the stones: Only the Power Stone has been shown to ever damage the user through contact.
Reality was literally INSIDE of Jane, that's why it did slow damage to her body, and the only time Space ever "damaged" anyone, was when the Skull tried to actually USE the Cosmic Cube, which isn't, in itself, a Stone, but a Stone contained in something meant to make it more controllable.
And if you pay attention to Thanos when he pulls out the Power Stone to punch Captain Marvel with it, it surges through his hand and arms, damaging and affecting his flesh while handled with bare hands.
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yeah you're right, but this thread just made me remember about it.
Yeah Rodhey last scene in CW was weird in that regard, even Tony realized the accords were kinda BS.
I simply thing that the Soul Stone doesn't kill you at touch like the Power Stone. Possibly each stone has different effects on you.
Cap was stuck in hiding for years because of Civil War. At the beginning of Endgame, Tony was very clearly not his friend. It took 5 years after that for them to make up. You can call it useless but they might've beat Thanos if they were never split up from Civil War.
No it doesn't. Parker even says himself; "what good is a neighborhood spider-man if there is no neighborhood?"
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Civil War is very important and while not flawless it's probably the single movie that is more consistently acknowledged in the following ones.
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I think you don't really get it. The problem isn't Infinity War, it's Homecoming ending the way it does when they fully knew IW was next.
The fact that the movie directly acknowledges how the ending to the previous movie meant nothing in the big scheme is damning, not absolving.
Banner explains it. He treated Hulk like a disease but was quick to use him as an emergency button.
The conclusion was for him to accept he's both. And he was able to contribute being the only who could use the gauntlet without dying. He doesn't need to fight Thanos. As shown by his parody of Hulk rampage in 2012 NYC, he's not like that anymore.
He didn't need to be an Avenger or have the Iron Spider suit.
But shit happens and Tony used to literally saved his life. By IW it was all hands on deck and Peter proved himself useful again so Tony brought him into the Avengers because desperate times call for desperate measures.
It's not that Peter needed Avengers, it's that the Avengers needed Spidey.
As Pepper says, she could never get Tony to stop.
He IS Iron Man. He doesn't need it, but as his dad says put the greater good above yourself.
Tony IS Iron Man because that's how he contributes the most.
To me that shows that Natasha is broken and isn't cut out for relationships. It's also more on Banner running away from everyone.
You can take the SHIELD out of Fury but you can't take the Fury out of SHIELD.
Winter Soldier was about destroying SHIELD as an organization, Nick sort of reformed it with trusted people.
That was Steve trying relationships and it didn't work out I guess.
Exactly. Tony and Cap don't even make up til a third through Endgame. Between Civil War and then, that's like 7 years. They were not talking to each other longer than their entire friendship
It's not like Peter says he never wants to be an Avenger, just that he wants to stay on the ground longer. Tony thrusts all that on him when Thanos shows up. What do you want him to do, get back on the bus?
Some of the minor subplots in between the movies could have been handled better, but it doesn't bother me too much.
And ya know, a lot can change with the passing of time, even if it's just 1-3 years.
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Tony was smiling at Steve's letter at the very end of Civil War, and it's strongly implied Tony was sabotaging attempts to find and arrest the rogue Avengers.
He has a meltdown at the beginning of Endgame because he starved for 23 days, thought he was about to die, was recently beaten and stabbed from an undefeatable opponent who killed half the universe's population including his pupil Peter, as the culmination of a nightmare that has been haunting him since Avengers 1.
He wasn't exactly in the best state of mind.
They need to always be joined at the hip in order to fight threats ? Come on, sounds like a convenience for contrivance sake, Cap magically appeared to help out Vision, so he was always around.
hey look, it's another person who totally whiffed on what the ending of Iron Man 3 meant. movie literally ends with him saying "I am Iron Man" but, sure, that movie was about him retiring so it's totally weird that he didn't!
also I, too, would have rather had Pete die leaving the earth's atmosphere rather than Stark shooting the suit out to him so he wouldn't die. makes sense.
you missed the point of Hulk too, I guess. he actually found the balance between he and Hulk. he's not always angry anymore. remember "that's my secret Cap"? turns out after taking the biggest L of his life to Thanos, twice, he reconciled with Hulk and now he's not angry all the time anymore. neat!
also I, too, would have rather had Pete die leaving the earth's atmosphere rather than Stark shooting the suit out to him so he wouldn't die. makes sense.
you missed the point of Hulk too, I guess. he actually found the balance between he and Hulk. he's not always angry anymore. remember "that's my secret Cap"? turns out after taking the biggest L of his life to Thanos, twice, he reconciled with Hulk and now he's not angry all the time anymore. neat!
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No, I wanted writers who probably know the schedule and plots of the next 5 upcoming movies not to make Homecoming's story about him "staying on the ground a bit more" if the next thing we saw him doing was FLYING INTO SPACE.
It's worth mentioning since everyone kept going on about how those two movies stepped on each other shoes and how Star Wars needs a Feige for reasons I never understood.
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Time happens between these movies and characters evolve off screen.
It isn't like IW happens a day or two after Homecoming ends.
See above.
And again, you are acting like Parker wasn't on the ground for longer.
Sure, he was in a bad state at the beginning. But he still put all the blame on Cap. We didn't see them be civil again until after the timeskip.
Cap appeared because Vision was with Wanda, who was in hiding with them. And yes, they do, because they lost when apart, and won together.
In fairness to Rhodes, by the time he says this there's been a giant alien ship over both New York and Edinburgh, and Tony has going missing. That seems like it'd be enough, like they'd be significant enough events to change his mind.
The funny thing about this complaint, however, is that I think the MCU was more guilty of it with the first two Avengers movies. There you have this sort of push-and-pull, where there's a status quo set after Avengers - and then we have Iron Man 3, Cap 2 and Thor 2. Now, Thor 2 is largely inconsequential, but Cap 2 and IM3 have major implications for characters and organizations. But because Age of Ultron is a sequel to Avengers, it brushes past a lot of those.
So you've got Tony, having blown up his suits, completely happily and non-reluctantly going on Avengers missions. More than that, though, you've got him building hundreds of suits. SHIELD is destroyed, but there's Jackson at the end with a Helicarrier anyway, etc. This is even true at a character level where it really feels like Black Widow changed in Winter Soldier, but come AOU she's back to where she was at the end of Avengers. It always felt like they didn't want to really take major developments from the solo films on board in case it scared away fans of just the team-up movies, as the box office indicated such people clearly existed.
In Phase 3 that worry seemed to shrink and disappear entirely, though, and I feel like those sorts of things are a lot less common or noticeable in anything after AOU.
It's true, the MCU is pretty good at continuity on a plot level (there are issues, but not nearly as many as you'd expect over 22 films), but not nearly as good at continuity of characterization or themes. Personally, my biggest gripe is how the Russos and Markus/McFeely handled Thor post-Ragnarok (he gets his eye back! He needs a weapon again for no reason! he turns his back on being king, which the ending of Ragnarok successfully sells as the culmination of his entire character up to that point!).
Yup. Exactly my biggest issue with the MCU. It's louded as this big storytelling experiment, but when you poke at it, it all falls apart pretty quickly because there is so little consistency on a character level. Infinity War already lost me when Spidey, who in Homecoming completed the arc realising he's okay with being just friendly neighbourhood spider-man, who doesn't need to be an Avenger, starts immediatly eyeing that Avengers-role again, and getting it the minute after.
Don't get me wrong, I like the MCU for what it is, but I generally like the stand-alone(ish) stories way better because this issue isn't present. The potential of a big cross-over universe with a narrative line trough it all often doesn't amount to more than cameo's and cross-overs, while on a story level it's not developped all that well. The whole Civil War should have been a huge shake up for the MCU, resonating strongly in the next team-up film and generating drama, but Infinity War only handles it on a surface level, failing to force Cap and Iron Man to resolve their issue, and in Endgame they resolve it in a single scene, not really making it an issue at all really. We don't ever really explore what the shism means for Cap or Tony. We should've gotten a Cap-movie after Civil War exploring the fall-out, but we swiftly went to the Infinity War.
And the main line troughout all the movies are the Infinity Stones, which are mere McGuffins in stead of a real story thread.
And yes, it's baffling the MCU is praised for its storytelling, while the new Star Wars trilogy gets shit on for suposed inconsistancies, while TLJ is an absolutely logical follow-up on the storylines and character arcs set-up in TFA, without obvious inconsistancies at all (even Rey's lineage is adressed in TFA as unimportant, in the text, not even in subtext). You can point to Snoke or the Knights of Ren as stuff that got sidelined or seemingly not payed of (though I'll argue killing of Snoke was what the story and Kylo needed), but we still don't know what TROS will do (The Knights seem to make a return at least).
And the argument Star Wars is only two or three movies doesn't stand either, because the inconsistancies in the MCU are often also just between two or three movies.
Don't get me wrong, I like the MCU for what it is, but I generally like the stand-alone(ish) stories way better because this issue isn't present. The potential of a big cross-over universe with a narrative line trough it all often doesn't amount to more than cameo's and cross-overs, while on a story level it's not developped all that well. The whole Civil War should have been a huge shake up for the MCU, resonating strongly in the next team-up film and generating drama, but Infinity War only handles it on a surface level, failing to force Cap and Iron Man to resolve their issue, and in Endgame they resolve it in a single scene, not really making it an issue at all really. We don't ever really explore what the shism means for Cap or Tony. We should've gotten a Cap-movie after Civil War exploring the fall-out, but we swiftly went to the Infinity War.
And the main line troughout all the movies are the Infinity Stones, which are mere McGuffins in stead of a real story thread.
And yes, it's baffling the MCU is praised for its storytelling, while the new Star Wars trilogy gets shit on for suposed inconsistancies, while TLJ is an absolutely logical follow-up on the storylines and character arcs set-up in TFA, without obvious inconsistancies at all (even Rey's lineage is adressed in TFA as unimportant, in the text, not even in subtext). You can point to Snoke or the Knights of Ren as stuff that got sidelined or seemingly not payed of (though I'll argue killing of Snoke was what the story and Kylo needed), but we still don't know what TROS will do (The Knights seem to make a return at least).
And the argument Star Wars is only two or three movies doesn't stand either, because the inconsistancies in the MCU are often also just between two or three movies.
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Ehm. Iron Man 3. The Shane Black movie. Shane Black, RDJ's friend. You do know that that movie ends the way it does because it was a time where both RDJ and the MCU leadership were considering ending their partnership?
Now, the movie doesn't scream "I'll never be Iron Man again" because everything was up in the air, but notice how if Tony exited the MCU there, the last thing he'd say would have been "I am Iron Man". And his last words in Endgame? Coincidence? I think not.
What's this? Really, why. Why?
Replied to this already. You're LTTP.
Against Thanos a united front was better than the fractured shit they did in IW. "Cap magically appears" Huh? He was already on the battlefield in Wakanda and as we saw, dude can move. It feels like you guys are purposefully ignoring things or don't pay attention
Well first off, I don't agree with what you're saying about the movies undermining each other. The story of Homecoming was him learning to be comfortable in his own skin, to not rush to grow up. He did that, nothing in IW takes away from that lesson he learned in Homecoming.
It sounds like you want him to not fight against Thanos because he said he didn't want to be an Avenger. He was gonna fight against Thanos anyway, regardless. That's what a hero does. In the context of the movie it all made sense to me
okay so in thor 1: the thor 2 prequel we see the infinity gauntlet in asgard because they had just started making these movies and having a story line in which a bad darkseid ripoff who's horny for a skeleton collects the chaos emeralds seemed stupid as hell
then in Avengers 2: This Movie is Still Going? at the end thanos goes "fine i'll do it myself" and opens up a thing and pulls out his real gauntlet
then in thor 3/hulk 2: thor harder, goth gf galadriel sees the original gauntlet and goes "fake" to make fun of the plot hole
but then in infinity war thor goes to peter dinklage and they're like "ahh he killed all the space dwarves and made us make him the gauntlet, why didn't you protect us" and thor is like all "oh asgard got blown up by a balrog last week" but thanos clearly had the power glove years ago in the avengers 2 credits thing so asgard really was full of shit and not paying attention to the dwarves. but if peter dinklage only made the gauntlet for him a little while ago, how would Hella Cool know that the gauntlet in the vault was a fake. like maybe she'd know the stones were fake but what is fake about the gauntlet
just my two cents
then in Avengers 2: This Movie is Still Going? at the end thanos goes "fine i'll do it myself" and opens up a thing and pulls out his real gauntlet
then in thor 3/hulk 2: thor harder, goth gf galadriel sees the original gauntlet and goes "fake" to make fun of the plot hole
but then in infinity war thor goes to peter dinklage and they're like "ahh he killed all the space dwarves and made us make him the gauntlet, why didn't you protect us" and thor is like all "oh asgard got blown up by a balrog last week" but thanos clearly had the power glove years ago in the avengers 2 credits thing so asgard really was full of shit and not paying attention to the dwarves. but if peter dinklage only made the gauntlet for him a little while ago, how would Hella Cool know that the gauntlet in the vault was a fake. like maybe she'd know the stones were fake but what is fake about the gauntlet
just my two cents
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I didn't touch Thor because while he's constantly done dirty, Ragnarok is one of my favourite movies in the MCU and while I don't like how he was treated in Endgame, the "even with depression you can still be worthy" was a powerful message that I appreciated.
lol, love this too
I thought we were past using the word "literally" incorrectly
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Funny thing was that I thought "Will any smart guy come and say we don't LITERALLY see him doing that because he fights dude in the park for a bit first? Nah, nobody will be so petty".
it's just the cherry on top of that OP, thought it was funny
One thing stuff like this has made me realize is that people don't realize that the MCU movies play mostly in real time.
Not always but generally.
Like Rhodey showing annoyance at the Accords in IW is 2 years after the fact. It wasn't a few months or days, but 2 years to actually live with it. Feelings change.
Spider-man didn't reject joining the Avengers and then a week later go to Space, it was almost a year after.
Not always but generally.
Like Rhodey showing annoyance at the Accords in IW is 2 years after the fact. It wasn't a few months or days, but 2 years to actually live with it. Feelings change.
Spider-man didn't reject joining the Avengers and then a week later go to Space, it was almost a year after.