Okay, most people who work on Indies don't own a part of the company - they are employees who are much less job secure, worse working conditions, less pay and less benefits than their AAA counterparts. Indie does not mean working for yourself, it means the company isn't owned by a publisher.The power dynamic and profit sharing at a AAA dev versus an indie are way different though. I firmly believe that a 4 person indie team, where each person owns 25% of the game (and potential upside) should be free to work as they please. In a corporate environment, the dynamic is so, so different.
These are the people that made Majora's Mask, the game that was an entire metaphor for crunch time lol
Yeah...you see, indies crunch too! Even more, because some of them sold their house to keep chasing their dream.They dont have someone backing them, its just the team.If AAA can only exist because of these kinds of working conditions, it deserves to die.
It's not just a AAA issue all developers crunch. Read Schreier's book and how hard the shovel knight people crunched. It affects all games out there and arguably indie devs more because they have limited funds. Like those shovel knight devs were burning through their money and had to go a brief time without any pay while they rushed to finish everything. At least with a AAA publisher they can keep paying.
But eliminating crunch isn't something most gamers would be ok with either. It'll result in higher budgets and games taking even longer to release than the 3-5 years they already take.
Could be remembering incorrectly but pretty sure DICE is part of a swedish Game dev union - as in the whole company, not just QA.
We have a collective bargain agreement with Unionen and Sveriges Ingenjörer and also provide our employees with an occupational pension.
One of the bigger problems is that insane crunch is constantly validated by the fact that Naughty Dog, Rockstar and CDPR titles are among the biggest in the world in terms of hype, acclaim and Game of the Year awards. All 3 of these companies are reportedly very high up when it comes to inhumanly high crunch. Crunch is awful, yet at the same time there is a misconception that it also "works".
I'l admit to some cognitive dissonance when it comes to unionization in the gaming industry- on one hand I'm pro-worker in general, but on the other hand I acknowledge we wouldn't get these huge, amazing games as often or in a timely a manner (relatively speaking) without peak efficiency.
They should find a way to ask Japanese Nintendo about crunch. I'm sure the results would be interesting.
The secret here is some game devs would rather be at work than any other place - let's enforce union rules so they can't do what they want with their lives
Progress
The thing with the prestigious studio's they are a great place to learn as well. So you pay your dues through crunch or otherwise (for something around 4 years) and then you can always transfers (in additon to a great resume) those skills to somewhere with more manageable hours.One of the bigger problems is that insane crunch is constantly validated by the fact that Naughty Dog, Rockstar and CDPR titles are among the biggest in the world in terms of hype, acclaim and Game of the Year awards. All 3 of these companies are reportedly very high up when it comes to inhumanly high crunch. Crunch is awful, yet at the same time there is a misconception that it also "works".
But that's the thing, there's also highly competitive companies in the industry that don't have crunch.The thing with the prestigious studio's they are a great place to learn as well. So you pay your dues through crunch or otherwise (for something around 4 years) and then you can always transfers (in additon to a great resume) those skills to somewhere with more manageable hours.
I don't think it's wrong to have a few highly competitive companies in the industry (which tend to have crunch). As it provides an options for those who want to put their career on the fast track. Though this only true, if there are actually alternatives present.
I don't work in the video game industry so this is just speculation based on the financial services industry.
These are the people that made Majora's Mask, the game that was an entire metaphor for crunch time lol
I somehow have feeling those type studio's trend towards micro transactions, multiplayer focused, and GAAS type games. Basically types of games a significant portion of this forum dislikes (this partially includes myself as well).But that's the thing, there's also highly competitive companies in the industry that don't have crunch.
There shouldn't be any excuses for companies still having crunch culture in this era.
All big studios trend toward that because it makes more money.I somehow have feeling those type studio's trend towards micro transactions, multiplayer focused, and GAAS type games. Basically types of games a significant portion of this forum dislikes (this partially includes myself as well).
We just need to do better then I guess.All big studios trend toward that because it makes more money.
But Bethesda's studios (Arkane, BGS, etc) aren't particularly known for crunch for example, despite not following those trends at all.
edit: while Naughty Dog has multiplayer modes and microtransactions in their game yet is one of the worst offenders in terms of crunch. CDPR is adding multiplayer in Cyberpunk. Rockstar is known for both crunch and multiplayer + microtransactions, etc.
It's not related.
Shipping a videogame is not what I'd consider "humanity's achievement" and worth dying for.All of humanitys achievements come at the expense of human blood.
I can't imagine Naughty Dog ever replying to a question of that with an answer that does not contain the word passion somewhere. You just have to look at Cory Barlog's answer on the topic to get a picture of how bad it probably is at ND.
Naughty Dog specifically does not hire producers or project managers so that there's no real scheduling other than the "work as hard as you can, for as long as you can, until leadership says it's done" and so teams aren't empowered to push back on unreasonable requests.
Maybe they finally learned after a decade+ of running themselves into the ground. Go read up about that company's history.
Props on them for not crunching on Destiny 2, but it's a bug not a feature (yet).
If AAA can only exist because of these kinds of working conditions, it deserves to die.
The bolded is actually a significant problem as the game industry has a talent drain problem. It's not that other tech fields necessarily have better work/life balance, but most of them at least pay considerably better.If a dev does not want to work at a company that crunches...he has many many choices within and outside the gaming industry
The bolded is actually a significant problem as the game industry has a talent drain problem. It's not that other tech fields necessarily have better work/life balance, but most of them at least pay considerably better.
Naughty Dog specifically does not hire producers or project managers so that there's no real scheduling other than the "work as hard as you can, for as long as you can, until leadership says it's done" and so teams aren't empowered to push back on unreasonable requests.
One of the funnier disconnects between experienced AAA devs and your average "smart" forum-goer gamer is that if you ask the gamer what studios they would want to work for, Naughty Dog is always in the top 5, but if you ask the AAA dev Naughty Dog (or CDPR) is rarely ever mentioned.
From what I can tell most devs in established western studios are paid more than handsomely for their time.
List themYou are conflating crunch with unions
Many, many development studios have incredible benefits and little crunch
Unionization is a completely different thing
Its not always about the money, if you can't go to your son birthday, or a funeral during a weekend or after work but they play you enough doesnt make it right.Those terrible working conditions with highly competitive salaries, benefits, and paid vacation!!! We must stand up and fight for these people!
Games developers don't actually get paid as much as those working in different (software) engineering fields. Additionally, software is only a part of the issue, there are a lot of artists etc, that get paid even less.'Crunch' happens in every software dev vertical with strong deadlines. It's not unique to gaming and acting as such comes off as extremely entitled. From what I can tell most devs in established western studios are paid more than handsomely for their time. I'm a Software Developer by trade and have experienced 'crunch' at nearly every employer I've had. Software Devs make extremely high amounts of money relative to their cost of education and necessary training, so I consider it part of the deal. Software development on complex project is hard as hell, usually involving a LOT of very smart people from multiple disciplines, and yet projects still manage to go sideways half of the time. It just.. part of the job if you have deadlines.
Can someone please give me a cogent reason as to why software development on games should operate differently than software development in any other vertical?
Or, you know, we could let developers do whatever they want to do. Nobody is forcing anybody to work on any game, to my knowledge.If AAA can only exist because of these kinds of working conditions, it deserves to die.
Nope, gonna cut you off there. Software developers (and even software testers) make more money than those in the games industry.
Huh, that's pretty interesting had no idea I wonder if the Dice's (not EA's specifically) QA is protected under that Union.Could be remembering incorrectly but pretty sure DICE is part of a swedish Game dev union - as in the whole company, not just QA.
Depends, 343i seems rather crunchprone and we all remember Ensemble Studios
Yeah, people should stand up for them. And everyone else in similar (or worse) conditions.Those terrible working conditions with highly competitive salaries, benefits, and paid vacation!!! We must stand up and fight for these people!
Or, you know, we could let developers do whatever they want to do. Nobody is forcing anybody to work on any game, to my knowledge.
Valve seems to be like Naughty Dog in having a flat structure. It kind of sounds like a "work when you want to work" company and when something is done then its done. No harsh deadlines etc. At least that's the perception. I wonder with how often people constantly harass them to make more games or whatever if it will push them to into unhealthy work practices (if they aren't already).
Depends, 343i seems rather crunchprone and we all remember Ensemble Studios
No idea how it is at Turn10 or the Gears studio
I would like to talk about Hitman 2