I think AAA at $60 can only exist because of these conditions. I'd gladly pay $90 if the industry Unionized
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Waypoint - "We Asked Nintendo, Microsoft, and 12 Other Devs How They Deal With Crunch"
- Thread starter MadLaughter
- Start date
Thanks for the post.
I think it's possible to make a parralel between the concept that:
-Localization and testing are tasks that can be speeded up by hiring more people, Development less so.
With:
-Amdahl's law on performance speedup that explicits that some parts of an algorithm can be sped up by parallelisation (aka. hire more processors to do the task) while other parts can only be performed linearly and won't benefit from parallelisation to reduce execution time.
Which hints that there's a limit of how much you can speed up overall development by hiring more people=adding man-hours without adding actual time.
I think this is a key concept to understanding crunch in relation to project management (from an algorithmic point of view).
If I remember correctly the main problem that this was causing was the psychological obligation to crunch because you were seen as inferior if you did not crunch (you're not as passionate, you don't deliver as much content, etc...). I feel the solution goes in making sure management doesn't penalize the lack of crunching and rewards healthy behavior.
I personally see no problem in a developer choosing to crunch on its own free will BUT I believe it should be a "positive" crunch (an example of a negative crunch would be the idea that if everyone is doing it you should do it too or that would mean you are not as valuable in the team). The creative arts demand that extra time many times because of something called creativity. Sometimes you are inspired and you have to ride on that.
So I believe a change of culture will do more for the industry than unionization ever will. And if that requires a change in the way we consume this medium, so be it.
I personally see no problem in a developer choosing to crunch on its own free will BUT I believe it should be a "positive" crunch (an example of a negative crunch would be the idea that if everyone is doing it you should do it too or that would mean you are not as valuable in the team). The creative arts demand that extra time many times because of something called creativity. Sometimes you are inspired and you have to ride on that.
So I believe a change of culture will do more for the industry than unionization ever will. And if that requires a change in the way we consume this medium, so be it.
As if they wouldn't be risking their careers with an industry that has no problem with an influx of new "passionate" labor coming in at a constant rate. Establishing an industry-wide union is a fight, and alot of people can't afford to lose their jobs in the risk of that fight.
This comic needs to be updated stat but with Waypoint being the interviewer and shitty publishers dodging the question about crunch. Also, Unionize. Y'all look like chumps letting these companies work you like indentured servants. Have some respect for yourselves and your talents.
I'm sorry but this is one of the grossest things I've ever read on this forum. I can't even understand how someone can be anti-union.
CDPRs Response sounds like something I'd expect from a polish company. So far I haven't met a polish worker that wasn't pulling insane hours and working like an ox.
Anecdotal for sure, but I've heard this attitude from polish people before, so I am not surprised.
Anecdotal for sure, but I've heard this attitude from polish people before, so I am not surprised.
Crunch exists on the flawed notion that longer hours equals more work done. In reality, more hours means less concentrated and more tired workers and more mistakes being made, that in turn requires even more crunching to fix. Perhaps crunch does produce results on a short term basis, but on a regular long term basis it's more trouble than it's worth.
As for this notion that unions and less crunch would mean more expensive games, if so then bring it. I don't care. I only buy a handful of new games a year anyway.
As for this notion that unions and less crunch would mean more expensive games, if so then bring it. I don't care. I only buy a handful of new games a year anyway.
I guess I'm not the only one disappointed that there was nothing on Nintendo of Japan, but here's an interesting thought: does Nintendo of Japan need to crunch?
- It's got several tankers' worth of cash and no debt. It absolutely doesn't need to worry about meeting deadlines to pay their bills. I get the impression they don't Really care that much about investors either.
- It doesn't announce release dates well in advance. Hell it doesn't announce the existence of most games well in advance. Many games only get definitive release dates half a year in advance, and by then you can be certain that it's pretty much done already.
- And if it turns out that the game really isn't ready, they just delay it like it's nobody's business (see Zelda, and many of us suspect Yoshi was delayed).
- Nintendo of Japan is big. I read somewhere that when someone at Nintendo of Japan comes up with an idea, he walks around gathering people to work on a prototype. So maybe it works that way for development too: if they're approaching a deadline, they walk around kidnapping people from other divisions. Since most games don't have release dates coming up soon, nobody on the outside would even know if some other game was delayed as a result.
When a deadline is looming, longer hours does in fact lead to more work being done. The quality of work may be in question though. Take it from a guy that has to write reports to coincide with an annual tax deadline.
This is some great journalism from Waypoint. Its a shame that the reality of the game industry is such that journalists usually doesn't have such high-density access to creators and studios, so it's great that they used E3 for this purpose instead of the typical hype machine.
It's good that these studios are on the record with their stances, because now they are accountable to these statements if their employees leak anything to the contrary.
It's good that these studios are on the record with their stances, because now they are accountable to these statements if their employees leak anything to the contrary.
It is but in a different way. I think the changes that unionization brings tackles the problem of crunching in a wrong way and crunching is connected to a lot of other problems (job security, fresh blood employment, salaries, etc..). It does a lot of good and I'm not against it BUT I feel there is a better way.
I don't know how games will change if we become a industry that is fully unionized (will they simply increase in price? I don't think it can be as simple as that) but I feel that the changes in culture I was suggesting would allow a lot of problem solving without destroying what we already have (that I like in my personal opinion).
I guess we will have to see
I think crunch is ridiculous. As in the unpaid type of crunch. If crunch is needed but people are getting paid overtime as they should, then it's all up to the individuals and the company to agree on what amount of extra time is necessary.
Personally, I'd never crunch for CDPR. I'd never even work for them. I find their games bland and uninteresting and would dread every single day working on something I wouldn't want to play. Have no type at all for Cyberpunk. However, I'd happily crunch for Naughty Dog to help bring to life some of the most amazing, emotional and satisfying games I've ever played. It's all relative. But provided I was getting paid my due overtime, of course, at acceptable rates.
Personally, I'd never crunch for CDPR. I'd never even work for them. I find their games bland and uninteresting and would dread every single day working on something I wouldn't want to play. Have no type at all for Cyberpunk. However, I'd happily crunch for Naughty Dog to help bring to life some of the most amazing, emotional and satisfying games I've ever played. It's all relative. But provided I was getting paid my due overtime, of course, at acceptable rates.
Why do Waypoint care so much about something that the people involved don't seem to care about though. I would expect countless anonymous horror stories but they are few and very far between. It's weird the people making the most noise are people outside looking in
Interesting input, but your anecdotes are at odds with so many other voices like this:
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-04-03-an-industry-driven-by-passion-not-pay
You shouldn't speak for the entire gaming community just because you don't notice all the woeful cries that many developers make as they endure crunch. Waypoint (and Kotaku) have started doing this kind of investigative journalism BECAUSE of the fact that so many developers have came out in public about the soul-crushing scenarios they go through during crunch.
There are horror stories though. Have you been living under a rock?
I'm just thankful to be at a studio (Survios) where crunch is kept to a minimum and work-life balance is highly valued. I'm glad that Waypoint is bringing this situation to light, though, as I've heard many horror stories from my coworkers about some of their previous employers.
Ones from years ago? I would expect endless horror stories from people that have moved companies or quit the industry.
About mercury steam, and metroid.
Enric Alvarez wasnt even let near the game by Sakamoto and Nintendo.
They knew what they were doing and who was the trouble maker there.
Pretty sure the development process of metroid and other projects with enric alavarez as the led were completely different in nature.
People usually don't like to burn bridges, or someone just don't even want to talk about it again (cf that recent article about Retro's working conditions on MP1).
Not recognizing the power of numbers in a thread about unionizing is a bad look. This doesn't relieve the responsibility from CEOs.
Journalism.
Usually people suffering from an injustice are the least likely to complain and try to fight it. This happens in abuse cases, cults, industries, and countries. Why couldnt it be the case for the game industry?
I mean, who knows how much "the people involved" care or not, when there is such narrow visibility into the business practices of these studios? Perhaps there are some studios where crunch is regular and literally everyone on the team is OK with it, but I would imagine in such cases there is a lot of group pressure to perform at such a high level for fear of reprisal/looking less valuable then fellow employees. It's all anecdotal at this point, but I certainly know that I work in tech and have worked month long periods of crunch that I wouldn't have complained publicly about for fear of reprisal, even anonymously. I do recommend Jason Schreier's book though, which has a throughline that crunch is indeed a problem that plagues studios large and small.
By Waypoint making it an issue, it puts accountability that organizations should be "on notice" that there will be an outlet willing to go to the mat on tarnishing the goodwill value of the company if they aren't treating their people as well as they say they do. I actually don't really have a problem with some of the studios in this article saying "crunch is part of the culture" because at least they are being transparent about the type of studio they are running even if that doesn't sound great for prospective employees. However, for companies that are trying to take stance that crunch is bad, they should be held accountable if they are following their own stated goals to reducing it.
I don't love every "take" Waypoint has, but it's a net good to have an adversarial publication in the gaming industry such as theirs that will try to root issues such as these out.
I understand a lot of people don't want to burn bridges but surely SOME would. These are intelligent educated professionals, not one of them has ever thought 'fuck this I'm going to be the one to make a difference and bring about change'? I don't believe that for one second.
It's sadly fairly easy to get blacklisted in this industry, and nobody wants to hire someone shitting publicly on their previous employer.
Hence the call for unions and similar.
What about people who have retired, or quit the industry, or just thought enough is enough?
If developers can earn so much more money and work much fewer hours in other areas why don't we see a mass migration away from game development? Sure, some people might be risk-adverse, have families, etc but these aren't poor uneducated people with no other options. I love the posters that say they would pay $90 for games - how many people here refuse to buy full price for a game and wait until a deep discount?
But isn't crunch already built into the Japanese work culture?
Well, it depends. Japanese culture has 'normal overtime' so to say: you can be expected to work late and then hang out drinking with your co-workers.
Crunch is more intense than 'normal overtime' though. Normal overtime is working late, but it's not necessarily (always) intense, you just stay at the office longer because you're sort of expected to, and even if you are busy, you're not rushing like mad 24/7 to get everything done. It's like, crunch is expecting you to sprint for several weeks/months, and normal overtime is just walking or jogging at a normal pace, except for for a really long time and all the time.
Might want to re-read what I wrote rather than do a drive-by post.
You are saying you would do crunch for a naughty dog because you like their games. Am I correct?
You're probably right, with how wealthy this corporations are there definitely seems to be several avenues to alleviate this problem- like buying more office space, hiring more employees- in the long term, this can only be a good thing for the industry else all the talent will be driven out like Bruce Straley.
I'm not a fan however of how Era is the only place we are willing to discuss these issues, on Reddit for example where CDPR (for example) is the do-no-wrong golden boy, you would get such responses like "lazy devs" or "lol cant handle the pressure". These shortsighted fanboys miss the point- that talented individuals will avoid the games industry/leave if these conditions persist. Why do high-grade work for low-grade pay when the lucrative software industry can provide many jobs with better pay AND more free time? All the talent being driven out will own negatively impact the industry in the long run.
I've been part of multiple unions and never ever heard of this. And even if something like this exists, how would you know that this bizarre outlier method would be enforced in a potential game developer union??
Yeah I've worked for 3 studios myself, two AAA, and that dudes post seemed like a giant pile of bullshit.
Read the first line of my post. The first line is my stance on crunch, the second paragraph is personal.
Nintendo has no stakes in Mercury Steam.
Not comparable to Retro Studios (100% owned) or even NLG (second party deal) at all
Reggie's answer was the right one - if your business is incapable of fulfilling workflow with existing staffing levels, then put on more staff.
Paid overtime laws were not fought for by unions to give you more money. In many countries the overtime rates of pay are the same or higher than the hourly rate of pay. Why? The goal was to discourage disreputable employers from squeezing their own staff to the bone. Not only is that bad for the people working there, it also creates unemployment by forcing one person to do the work of two people. Unions fought for these laws for a reason.
If you don't get paid overtime for crunching (or get leave in lieu), you are donating your own personal time to your employer for free. It doesn't matter what Industry you are in, whether it's coal mining, investment banking or video game development.
If you want to donate your own time to your employer for free because you're passionate, that's your business. And you're an idiot.
Paid overtime laws were not fought for by unions to give you more money. In many countries the overtime rates of pay are the same or higher than the hourly rate of pay. Why? The goal was to discourage disreputable employers from squeezing their own staff to the bone. Not only is that bad for the people working there, it also creates unemployment by forcing one person to do the work of two people. Unions fought for these laws for a reason.
If you don't get paid overtime for crunching (or get leave in lieu), you are donating your own personal time to your employer for free. It doesn't matter what Industry you are in, whether it's coal mining, investment banking or video game development.
If you want to donate your own time to your employer for free because you're passionate, that's your business. And you're an idiot.
If it means developers get to actually enjoy their families and not get abused, I'm happy to.
Exactly. And Yoshi was indeed delayed, already confirmed.
But that would only apply to Nintendo EPD, I don't think that this would apply to their owned studios or partners who work with them.
The Japanese industry has a long history of really bad work practices, although I'm not sure how much they've cleaned up their act in recent years. It was very common to have a "hamachi room", which was a room where you'd be locked in and you'd crunch and crunch.
https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JohnSzczepaniak/20160921/281799/Dark_Side_of_the_Sun.php
https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JohnSzczepaniak/20160921/281799/Dark_Side_of_the_Sun.php
I read a lot about unions, but can someone explain what that would look like? Not from the US, so I'm having trouble with that.
I think I remember an article being posted here about the difficulties of finding senior employees, because most of them left the industry. So there is a migration. However, there are enough young people, willing to join their favorite game companies. I also wouldn't pay fullprice for a game anytime soon, my backlog is way too big for that.
I think I remember an article being posted here about the difficulties of finding senior employees, because most of them left the industry. So there is a migration. However, there are enough young people, willing to join their favorite game companies. I also wouldn't pay fullprice for a game anytime soon, my backlog is way too big for that.
The huge difference in tone between the producer/management side(IO, Microsoft, ESA, that Ubi PR dickhead) and the actual directors/designers/artists in this article is fucking comical.
Tells you all you need to know.
Tells you all you need to know.
There's not a lot of horror stories because I feel most people just walk off quietly to work in a more lucrative industry with less demands. There was just an article detailing a GDC poll that stated 32% of atendees have been in the industry for less than 6 years.
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/318588/The_great_video_game_exodus.php
It's pretty normal in Sweden. Almost everyone, regardless of industry, is part of a union representing that industry. It's actually kind of weird if you're not part of a union.
The situation is kind of interesting since we don't have minimum wage here. Wages, vacation days, and everything else is negotiated between unions and the industries. Then of course you can further negotiate your wage with your company, but the minimum is set by unions. People in IT, including game devs and QA, are usually members in "Unionen". You don't have to be part of a union to take advantage of the benefits that the unions negotiate with companies, but they won't help you if you're not a member should you need it.
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