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Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I actually think it'd be fantastic - both morally and from a security standpoint - to view meddling in elections as an act of war. It is, after all, destabilising a country in order to attain certain goals - the only difference to actual war is that meddling in elections is using Soft Power and cyber-warfare to achieve those goals, instead of artillery and drones.
I would be very happy if all countries stopped with this shit. Not sure if putting a line in the sand and going to a full on war is the best approach though, since the real difference with actual war is that millions tend to die. I won't be holding my breath for this outcome though, and it's not only because of Russia.

I think it's also important to put shit in perspective, as such things go, that was a pretty light attack. The point I'm trying to stress is not that we should let Russia get away with that, the US should certainly don't, but hat this crap would have not gone very far had the GOP and the right wing media hadn't went along with this shit as active participants.
 

Punished Goku

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,107
The Trump campaign knowingly colluded with Russia either directly or through agents like Roger Stone to hack and compromise, then use, Democratic Party internal documents - and used those to target their activity (including help from Russian bots) in the very specific areas this data helped them target. THAT is straight up Watergate burglary, btw - that's exactly what Nixon was after. However, I also think that in that investigation, Mueller has probably unearthed HUNDREDS of mildly incompetent but serious financial crimes from the entire Trump family, and likely lots of MASSIVE campaign finance violations and straight up crimes.

I believe Congress is compromised. Obviously shills like Nunes are terrified of... something - and it's not the demise of Donald Trump. It's stuff that affects them personally. I also think that there;'s some more stories for when the movie of this hits, like Lindsay Graham being blackmailed with sex kompromat (maybe not Russian, btw - maybe domestic)
Shit, one of the oldest political parties has sold itself to a hostile nation all because it wants to stay in power.

I love Di Fi but someone new would be refreshing

That and past wrongs don't make it right.
She sticks her foot in her mouth way too often, in seemingly increasing regularity.
What makes Feinstein so bad? I'm not familiar with her.
 

Autodidact

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,729
Trent Lott's a blast from the past.

Rohrabacher keeps digging his own grave. I can't imagine his district will be receptive to talk of toddler weapons classes. Baron Cohen has handed Rouda another hammer.
 

Paches

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,682
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Soul Skater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,201
To be honest it is true

If you are going to make an originalist interpretation of the second amendment then there is no age limit

It is in the bill of rights. You don't need to be 18 to have your free speech be protected. So why not guns? If it is an inherent right
 

FreezePeach

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,811
wait wtf where did that footage come from? Is it a trailer for the new SBC series?
To be honest it is true

If you are going to make an originalist interpretation of the second amendment then there is no age limit

It is in the bill of rights. You don't need to be 18 to have your free speech be protected. So why not guns? If it is an inherent right

what?
 

patientzero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,729
It is in the bill of rights. You don't need to be 18 to have your free speech be protected. So why not guns? If it is an inherent right

Yes, you do.

Violations of Free Speech

The Supreme Court said in Tinker that "[If] conduct by the student, in class or out of it, which for any reason — whether it stems from time, place, or type of behavior — materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech." This is the hinge upon which many cases turn when a school violates a student's free speech protections.

In Bethel School v Fraser (478 US 675 [1986]), the Court ruled that a school was not violating a students rights when it suspended a student for the use of crude language in a speech to a school assembly. Said the Court: "It does not follow ... that simply because the use of an offensive form of expression may not be prohibited to adults making what the speaker considers a political point, the same latitude must be permitted to children in a public school... The determination of what manner of speech in the classroom or in school assembly is inappropriate properly rests with the school board."

Violations of Free Press

The Supreme Court has held that schools and school administrators can censor student publications such as student newspapers. The difference between the tolerance of expression, as in Tinker, and in promotion of student views, is the key. By wearing an arm band, a student is expressing his view and the school is not taking a stand, nor endorsing the student. But in a student newspaper, the school itself is represented in the newspaper, and by publishing a student piece, is now no longer a passive observer but an active participant. In Hazelwood School v Kuhlmeier (484 US 260 [1988]), the Supreme Court ruled that articles in the school paper that were counter to the educational mission of the school were subject to censorship.

Though untested in court, it is probably true that students are protected in publication of "underground" newspapers, and perhaps web pages, but the distribution of those papers or use of school computers to view web pages could be restricted.

Violations of Free Expression

Tinker was all about freedom of expression. The students in Tinker merely wore black arm bands. They did not disrupt school activities in any other way. The actions of the students are often used to distinguish the right of speech and expression for students from the rules that can govern those rights. Again the distinction hinges on the impact of the expression on the educational process.

In New Rider v Board (414 US 1097 [1973]), a pair of male Pawnee Indian students were suspended from school for wearing long hair in the tradition of their ancestors. The suspension was for violation of a school rule which forbade the wearing of hair that extended past the collar or ears. The Court refused to hear the case, but Justices Douglas and Marshall wrote a stinging dissent of the denial, "Petitioners were not wearing their hair in a desired style simply because it was the fashionable or accepted style, or because they somehow felt the need to register an inchoate discontent with the general malaise they might have perceived in our society. They were in fact attempting to broadcast a clear and specific message to their fellow students and others — their pride in being Indian." Douglas wrote another dissent in a hair-length case for Olff v East Side Union (404 US 1042 [1972]). No other cases appear to have been decided by the Court on this issue, and circuit courts have made conflicting rulings.

In Cohen v California (403 US 15 [1971]), the Court overturned a conviction of a man who wore a jacket with the words "F___ the Draft" on it. The Court ruled that the presence of a printed vulgarity cannot be sufficient cause for an arrest and 30-day imprisonment. The Court said: "[A]bsent a more particularized and compelling reason for its actions, the State may not, consistently with the First and Fourteenth Amendments, make the simple public display here involved of this single four-letter expletive a criminal offense." Cohen was not a student and the jacket was not displayed in a school, however. Dress codes that prohibit certain kinds of dress (like cut-off shorts or shirts with obscene or commercial messages) have not been challenged at the level of the Supreme Court, but have generally been upheld as promoting the educational process.

In 2007, in the widely-reported case of Morse v Frederick (06-278 [2007]), better known as the "Bong hits 4 Jesus" case, the court narrowly decided that student speech off campus can be suppressed by school administrators if the speech promotes illegal activity — drug use, in this case. In the case, Joseph Frederick erected a banner along a route used to transport the Olympic torch. The route was flanked by students from Frederick's high school. Principal Deborah Morse, on seeing the banner, had it removed and had Frederick suspended, on the premise that the banner ran counter to the school's anti-drug themes and policies. Drawing on both Tinker and Fraser, the Court decided that the message and its most reasonable interpretations, and not the place the message was displayed, was the deciding factor: "Student speech celebrating illegal drug use at a school event, in the presence of school administrators and teachers, thus poses a particular challenge for school officials working to protect those entrusted to their care from the dangers of drug abuse."
 

Punished Goku

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,107
You know I've been thinking, If this country goes into a Civil War who would win Liberals or conservatives? Who would Moderates and Independents side with? Who has the numbers advantage?
 

Soul Skater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,201
My point was in reference to the originalist view of some conservatives who feel justices should rule in that way

We have someone who is almost certainly going to be confirmed ruling that assault weapons bans are unconstitutional and he may be able to legitimately argue that

We wouldn't have these rulings if we was not for justices applying modern day common sense to the law. Every legal argument there applies that

Of course it should be illegal to sell deadly weapons to a five year old. But really if you think about it where specifically does it say that you can't ? Because every argument against conventional gun control says the constitution doesn't allow for it. Really any laws we try to push are just as unconstitutional as age limits
 

FreezePeach

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,811
Mueller is a conservative.

Id expect him to hold off on things until the Supreme Court vote happens
Oh look who it is. No, there are two schools of thought right now. It's standard (unspoken) practice to basically say after labor day no political legal decisions are made before an election. But then the next thought is any sort of proof or evidence that Mueller is considering elections to alter their decisions is equally destructive. So really, once again, nobody has any idea what's going to happen.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,994
Oh look who it is. No, there are two schools of thought right now. It's standard (unspoken) practice to basically say after labor day no political legal decisions are made before an election. But then the next thought is any sort of proof or evidence that Mueller is considering elections to alter their decisions is equally destructive. So really, once again, nobody has any idea what's going to happen.

Yup. And it may be his hand is forced by whatever he finds anyway - for example, if the NRA are funnelling Russian funds to GOP candidates in the midterms, then that's surely an ongoing crime that would need to be shut-down as soon as possible, regardless of the date that it is made known to the media.
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
3,288
Speaking of voting, have we talked about this?



Literally the only law of its kind in the nation and they're talking about "fair elections". This would have likely given another senate seat to the gop and nh to trump. Only silver lining is it doesn't go into effect until next year so there is time to challenge it.

Yeah, like am I reading that right? That's... not only a poll tax, but a really super blatant one, needing not only a driver's license but also needing to own a car to be able to vote. No car? No vote for you! Goddamn, the (NH in this case, but the rest will also naturally be closely watching stuff like this) GOP is getting bold if they feel comfortable even trial-ballooning stuff like this and seeing what happens in the courts and seeing just how far Trump's picks will let them go. And people come out of the woodwork in the Musk thread saying there's really no problem with him giving money to the GOP and it's all just no big deal. Sheesh.
 
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patientzero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,729
My point was in reference to the originalist view of some conservatives who feel justices should rule in that way

We have someone who is almost certainly going to be confirmed ruling that assault weapons bans are unconstitutional and he may be able to legitimately argue that

We wouldn't have these rulings if we was not for justices applying modern day common sense to the law. Every legal argument there applies that

Of course it should be illegal to sell deadly weapons to a five year old. But really if you think about it where specifically does it say that you can't ? Because every argument against conventional gun control says the constitution doesn't allow for it. Really any laws we try to push are just as unconstitutional as age limits

True, but that isn't exactly a new rub with originalists. Originalism is an inherently anarchic stance toward Constitutional interpretation and resulting governance, but that has never stopped anyone who wants to purport to be an originalist from adopting the moniker and running with it. It's just a more "high-minded", bookish Libertarianism, wherein white folks who want to say "fuck you" to everything that they don't like can congregate.
 

Amibguous Cad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,036
He might be, but he's not actually wrong on this point.
I'm not trying to both sides this issue nor do I try to downplay the seriousness of the Russian actions, but the US has done the same shit, and way worse actually. It almost certainly still do.

In the afterlife, Salvador Allende has been cackling for eighteen straight months. And let's be honest: the most fitting end for the American Empire really would be having a foreign superpower smash our democratic institutions and install a far right wing autocrat in their place.

Of course, I don't actually believe this is a divine comeuppance for America's sins, not least because plenty of Americans have fought against those crimes. And I wouldn't be saying any of this in a space that wasn't predominantly progressive, because it's not exactly great debate tactics, and there's nothing more important than beating Trump right now. But I do sincerely hope, when the dust clears and a new progressive administration is in place, that our brush with anti democratic foreign governments screwing with our politics leads to a reckoning with a history too often forgotten, and a reconsideration of the intelligence community's role in American foreign policy.
 

skullmuffins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,491
Yeah, like am I reading that right? That's... literally a poll tax, needing not only a driver's license but also needing to own a car to be able to vote. No car? No vote for you! Goddamn, the (NH in this case, but the rest will also naturally be closely watching stuff like this) GOP is getting bold if they feel comfortable even trial-ballooning stuff like this and seeing what happens in the courts and seeing just how far Trump's picks will let them go. And people come out of the woodwork in the Musk thread saying there's really no problem with him giving money to the GOP and it's all just no big deal. Sheesh.
Nah, non-drivers can still get a state ID and vote. This is more like, you're not eligible to vote if you live in NH and have an out-of-state ID/car registration. Previous law allowed people 'domiciled' in the state to vote. The current one requires that you establish residency, which means transferring over your license and stuff.
 

Luminish

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Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
Shit, one of the oldest political parties has sold itself to a hostile nation all because it wants to stay in power.




What makes Feinstein so bad? I'm not familiar with her.
Well, there is that incident of her putting up the confederate flag at the san francisco city hall, replacing it 3 times as a protestor tore it down, and then tried to prosecute that protestor.

And her generally having one of the more conservative voting records despite being from one of the most liberal states. Or her repeatedly flip flopping on the death penalty, being against it when she needs california votes, and then being for it once she's in power.
 

Punished Goku

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,107
Well, there is that incident of her putting up the confederate flag at the san francisco city hall, replacing it 3 times as a protestor tore it down, and then tried to prosecute that protestor.

And her generally having one of the more conservative voting records despite being from one of the most liberal states. Or her repeatedly flip flopping on the death penalty, being against it when she needs california votes, and then being for it once she's in power.
Yeah, she needs to go then. But like isn't she on the Senate Judicary Committee?
If she is then I'm conflicted.
 

skullmuffins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,491
For the Judiciary Committee the Democratic Party's caucus would get to pick her replacement and Patrick Leahy (D-VT) would replace her as the ranking member, or chairman if democrats take the senate.
Leahy let Feinstein take over Judiciary so he could be ranking member of Appropriations. If Leahy stays with Appropriations, I guess Durbin would have seniority over Judiciary if Feinstein loses in November.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,947
Whenever somebody brought up the GOP's idea of arming teachers in front of me, I'd jokingly respond, "No no no, you're not thinking big enough. What we need to do is give every student their own school-issued six-shooter." I don't know why I didn't expect the GOP to already have come up with and support that idea.
 

Luminish

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Oct 25, 2017
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Denver
Leahy let Feinstein take over Judiciary so he could be ranking member of Appropriations. If Leahy stays with Appropriations, I guess Durbin would have seniority over Judiciary if Feinstein loses in November.
Oh, then Durbin it is. No one would give up Appropriations for Judiciary. Though Judiciary might be a little more exciting in this particular era.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,660
Hmm. I think I was 9 or 10 the first time I shot a gun. It was just a little .22 rifle, though, at a summer camp.

I just remember being really annoyed I had to be in prone position while I did it.
 

Jack Remington

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Oct 25, 2017
3,083
How do you debate any trump surrogate when mostly what they do is lie?

The dishonesty is an issue, but looking at Reinnes today and thinking back to like every Clinton surrogate in 2015-16, just base-level debating techniques.

- Don't concede incorrect premises that will be used to set up a BS argument
- Don't concede false equivalences
- Have your own narrative and supporting evidence ready to go
- Don't use weak counter-arguments when there are stronger ones that should be obvious
- Don't fall into rhetorical traps (easier if you follow the first 3 pieces of advice)
- Hammer the obvious flaws in their arguments; don't waste any openings

I could probably think of other things as well. In most cases the Republican talking points are garbage, and can be picked apart. In 2016 it felt like Poli-*** was always several steps ahead of the campaign when it came to counter arguments. #4 was especially egregious. A Republican would say something dumb, and within an hour someone here had come up with a counter to it that was way more effective than anything the campaign would ever use.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
My parents say Trump wasn't their first choice (in the primary) but they bend over backwards to defend him now and resort to inventing new conspiracy theories I'd never even heard of. Consider yourselves lucky.

That's a lot of my extended friend/acquaintance group. They've shut up about him now and instead just tacitly support him with their right-wing memes and staying silent on all the immigration stuff, scandals, etc.

To be honest it is true

If you are going to make an originalist interpretation of the second amendment then there is no age limit

It is in the bill of rights. You don't need to be 18 to have your free speech be protected. So why not guns? If it is an inherent right

Well, the Bill of Rights is the obvious reason why a strict originalist approach to the constitution is dumb as rocks. Leaving aside the fact that it has a method to be amended built in, or the fact that we don't count black people as 3/5ths of a person, maybe the fact that essential freedoms you rely on had to be added in after ratification should be a clue that it's dumb to argue "what the founders meant".

The founders meant for stuff to get rewritten.

The anti-Musk threads in OT lately have been giving me life.

If Steve Jobs were still alive it would be such an interesting contrast between him and Musk, because it's clear Musk desperately wants to be the next Jobs and is utterly terrible at it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,660
If Steve Jobs were still alive it would be such an interesting contrast between him and Musk, because it's clear Musk desperately wants to be the next Jobs and is utterly terrible at it.

I mean I think Jobs was a shithead, too. Musk just pisses me off because he's brainwashed people into thinking electric cars are good for the environment and that we could actually colonize Mars and helped defund NASA in the process. But mostly I just hate hearing about him and want him to go away.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
I mean I think Jobs was a shithead, too. Musk just pisses me off because he's brainwashed people into thinking electric cars are good for the environment and that we could actually colonize Mars and helped defund NASA in the process. But mostly I just hate hearing about him and want him to go away.

Oh Jobs definitely wasn't a perfect person. But A) he still changed the world materially, whereas Musk's legacy is far from clear, and B) I don't think he'd be grandstanding on Twitter. He was a better showman.

Musk's problem is that he's not Jobs and he seems myopically focused on emulating the spotlight characteristics at the detriment of being a better damn person overall or even just doing better at his job. Jobs himself admitted he screwed up a lot, especially when it came to his family.
 
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