UK pilots voter ID laws in today's local elections. Goes as you'd expect.

Jackpot · May 3, 2018

We're having some local elections in the UK today. 5 areas - Bromley, Gosport, Swindon, Watford and Woking - are running mandatory ID checks before you can vote as a pilot scheme.

There hasn't been much promotion of the scheme and different areas allow different forms of ID.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...b077b21dff2031#block-5aeb01c3e4b077b21dff2031

https://twitter.com/ClaireEMcDonald/status/991974266760499201
https://twitter.com/DmcG1982/status/992010646567956481
https://twitter.com/EdmundGoldrick/status/991977277826232321

ad nauseum.

None of the five English boroughs taking part in a controversial trial of compulsory voter ID in local elections on Thursday has experienced a single instance of polling station impersonation in the past decade.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...id-trial-discrimination-fears-electoral-fraud

Demanding a rethink of the policy in March, a group of 40 charities and academics said Electoral Commission figures showed there were only 28 allegations of impersonation out of almost 45 million votes in 2017, and one conviction.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ication-polling-stations-london-a8334306.html

The Minister for the Constitution said that it was about combating the "perception of electoral fraud".

Translation: "perception" = "these people who don't look and sound British are allowed into the polling station just like me! I bet they're immigrant scroungers voting for benefits."

Principate · May 3, 2018

So good old Voter ID based racism.

AgainstTheCurrent · May 3, 2018

I mean that stat speaks for itself, seems pretty pointless.

But, on paper, the concept of needing ID before you can vote seems fine to me.

ReplacementPelican · May 3, 2018

Principate said:
So good old Voter ID based racism.

Where does the article discuss racism? What's your evidence for it having a racial angle?

I understand why it definitely does in America but I'm wondering what you're pulling this from or is it just the OPs take as well.

Same question to the OP, actually.

Lagamorph · May 3, 2018

Aren't a lot of the arguments for it being racist in America due to how hard it is to get ID in certain parts of America?
That isn't really a problem in the UK as even government ID can all be done online/via mail without ever having to physically visit somewhere.

Gernau Morat Gurgeh · May 3, 2018

The point is that voter suppression always helps the right, and the governments own statistics show that voter fraud is so vanishingly rare as to be irrelevant

Jackpot · May 3, 2018

ReplacementPelican said:
Where does the article discuss racism? What's your evidence for it having a racial angle?

I understand why it definitely does in America but I'm wondering what you're pulling this from or is it just the OPs take as well.

Same question to the OP, actually.

Why is it "definitely" if it was America but a mystery if it's the UK? Other countries have plenty of history with racism.

Lagamorph · May 3, 2018

Morat7 said:
The point is that voter suppression always helps the right, and the governments own statistics show that voter fraud is so vanishingly rare as to be irrelevant

Ironically though in this case many of the people being turned away are right voting elderly voters.

Gernau Morat Gurgeh · May 3, 2018

Lagamorph said:
Ironically though in this case many of the people being turned away are right voting elderly voters.

Ironic indeed, we'll have to see the stats of this trial I suppose. The whole thing is unnecessary though.

Dali · May 3, 2018

Saddens me to see UK ape the tactics of American conservatives. I thought y'all were better than that but increasingly over the last year or so it's become more apparent how off base I've been.

John Caboose · May 3, 2018

In Sweden you have to identify yourself with ID or have someone with ID vouch for your identity. About 85% of people who are eligible to vote in Sweden do so.

Breqesk · May 3, 2018

Making it more difficult for people to exercise their democratic rights for the sake of fixing a problem that doesn't actually exist is fucking disgusting. The only way to make a scheme like this in any sense fair would be to introduce mandatory ID laws, and send everyone a valid ID for free... Which would be super shitty for its own reasons, of course, and a fucking huge waste of money besides. And that's not even getting into the fact that I wouldn't trust this government to actually get those IDs to everyone who's eligible to vote, not for a fucking second. Theresa May is a fucking monster, and her 'hostile to migrants' policies have destroyed thousands of lives, through unjust detentions alone:

EDIT: Since a buncha people seem to be trying to make the argument that the only posters in this thread vehemently against this are American, I'd like to clarify that I'm very much British, have lived in Britain for my whole life, and still think this is a shite idea.

itsgreen · May 3, 2018

Photo ID voting has been mandatory like forever in The Netherlands. Never had a problem with it, photo ID's are easily attainable.

Principate · May 3, 2018

ReplacementPelican said:
Where does the article discuss racism? What's your evidence for it having a racial angle?

I understand why it definitely does in America but I'm wondering what you're pulling this from or is it just the OPs take as well.

Same question to the OP, actually.

It's done for the perception of voter fraud. Noone cares about voter fraud, this isn't a major percieved issue. The only reason this exist is to disenfranchise voters least likely to have ID's Considering this government is currently under a massive scandal involving windrush which consists of british citizens unable to prove their citizenship due to the government destroying their landing certificates this idea almost certainly does nopt come from a good place. Hence good old voter ID racism.

Frankie_baby · May 3, 2018

itsgreen said:
Photo ID voting has been mandatory like forever in The Netherlands. Never had a problem with it, photo ID's are easily attainable.

But as ID is not compulsory (or free) why should you need it for exercising your fundamental right to vote

Geoff · May 3, 2018

Principate said:
It's done for the perception of voter fraud. Noone cares about voter fraud, this isn't a major percieved issue. The only reason this exist is to disenfranchise voters least likely to have ID's Considering this government is currently under a massive scandal involving windrush which consists of british citizens unable to prove their citizenship due to the government destroying their landing certificates this idea almost certainly does nopt come from a good place. Hence good old voter ID racism.

There certainly are elements of voter fraud in some areas but AFAIK it's the postal vote system that gets abused

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/apr/05/politics.localgovernment

itsgreen · May 3, 2018

Frankie_baby said:
But as ID is not compulsory (or free) why should you need it for exercising your fundamental right to vote

It isn't free, but like 40 euro, and is compulsary for every person above 12 (I believe).

Eumi · May 3, 2018

itsgreen said:
Photo ID voting has been mandatory like forever in The Netherlands. Never had a problem with it, photo ID's are easily attainable.

As someone who knows people who literally can't afford to get an id, nah, this is a problem. Why should someone lose their right to vote?

The system works fine already here, we didn't need to introduce this, and even a single person being turned away is a failure.

I Don't Like · May 3, 2018

Dali said:
Saddens me to see UK ape the tactics of American conservatives. I thought y'all were better than that but increasingly over the last year or so it's become more apparent how off base I've been.

Conservatives are shit-heels no matter where they are. It's simply in their nature.

itsgreen · May 3, 2018

Eumi said:
As someone who knows people who literally can't afford to get an id, nah, this is a problem. Why should someone lose their right to vote?

The system works fine already here, we didn't need to introduce this, and even a single person being turned away is a failure.

I can only speak for The Netherlands, never been a problem over here, never stories of huge disenfranchised groups of people. Has been semi-mandatory for 20 years now. Everybody has to be able to show their photo ID, and must present it to police when they ask for it.

TBH, 40 euro's for an photo ID seems reasonable to me. And it is easily attainable. You can make an appointment for a time that semi-suits you and pick one up 1 or 2 weeks later. Also photo ID's that aren't valid anymore (up to, I believe 5 years), are valid for voting.

European ID, drivers license or passport are valid ID's and everyone has one of those.

Eumi · May 3, 2018

itsgreen said:
European ID, drivers license or passport are valid ID's and everyone has one of those.

But they don't. And the people who don't are much more likely to be poorer/younger.

Like, I can kinda see your argument as to why it isn't a big deal, even though I disagree, but I can't see you making any argument as to how this change is at all positive, whilst the easy argument as to why it's negative is that some people are going to lose their right to vote.

ReplacementPelican · May 3, 2018

Jackpot said:
Why is it "definitely" if it was America but a mystery if it's the UK? Other countries have plenty of history with racism.

In America, efforts to target this are targeted at minority-heavy areas and it's largely minorites who do not have easy access to photo ID.

I'm asking for similar evidence, not denying racism exists in the UK.

Principate said:
It's done for the perception of voter fraud. Noone cares about voter fraud, this isn't a major percieved issue. The only reason this exist is to disenfranchise voters least likely to have ID's Considering this government is currently under a massive scandal involving windrush which consists of british citizens unable to prove their citizenship due to the government destroying their landing certificates this idea almost certainly does nopt come from a good place. Hence good old voter ID racism.

That's an interesting point about the Windrush scandal.

That being said, is there large amounts of evidence that minorites within the UK are severely less likely to have photo ID?

You are correct though, in a sense but last general election social media was ablaze with people claiming all kinds of a shit about voter fraud but I do agree that most people don't even think about it.

Deleted member 4452 · May 3, 2018

We have voter id laws here in Quebec too, but our medicare card counts as photo id.

If the UK is genuinely concerned about voter fraud, they should provide photo id based on something everyone should have, like a NHS card with photo. Basing it on passport or driver's license targets the poor.

NeonCarbon · May 3, 2018

Seems unnecessary to me.

itsgreen · May 3, 2018

Eumi said:
But they don't. And the people who don't are much more likely to be poorer/younger.

Like, I can kinda see your argument as to why it isn't a big deal, even though I disagree, but I can't see you making any argument as to how this change is at all positive, whilst the easy argument as to why it's negative is that some people are going to lose their right to vote.

Are you Dutch or are you talking about the British situation? (Because I am talking about the Dutch situation, since I don't know the ins and outs of that system.)

Tacitus · May 3, 2018

What's up with the Anglosphere's (or at least, UK&USA) problem with voter IDs. It's handy as shit, as proving your identity at the polls is basically as strenuous as getting carded while buying alcohol. The only difference is that they scan the bar code at the polls here while cashiers can just look at it.

itsgreen · May 3, 2018

Tacitus said:
What's up with the Anglosphere's (or at least, UK&USA) problem with voter IDs. It's handy as shit, as proving your identity at the polls is basically as strenuous as getting carded while buying alcohol. The only difference is that they scan the bar code at the polls here while cashiers can just look at it.

Yeah also that, shop holders have to ID everyone they think might be 25 or below. Always a compliment when you get a bit older and they still ask it ;)

Heromanz · May 3, 2018

Tacitus said:
What's up with the Anglosphere's (or at least, UK&USA) problem with voter IDs. It's handy as shit, as proving your identity at the polls is basically as strenuous as getting carded while buying alcohol. The only difference is that they scan the bar code at the polls here while cashiers can just look at it.

Because voter fruad isn't a issue, it hurts the elderly and minority voters

Slayven · May 3, 2018

Will tariffs be imposed on this imported racism?

Fularu · May 3, 2018

Voter ID is mandatory to vote in Canada and, afaik, France

I really don't see the issue but I can understand frustrated people who aren't used to it and feeling angry at the turns of events.

I doesn't look like how it's done in the US where it seems to specifically target poor/black zones where ID cards "dispensers" are few and far between

itsgreen · May 3, 2018

Heromanz said:
Because voter fruad isn't a issue, it hurts the elderly and minority voters

I am aware that that is an issue in The States where it is hard to get an ID, but is that an issue in Britain? How hard is it to get an ID over tehre?

Frankie_baby · May 3, 2018

itsgreen said:
It isn't free, but like 40 euro, and is compulsary for every person above 12 (I believe).

It' Not compulsory for anyone in the UK

Eumi · May 3, 2018

itsgreen said:
Are you Dutch or are you talking about the British situation? (Because I am talking about the Dutch situation, since I don't know the ins and outs of that system.)

Either?

I just can't see a single positive to this system, what with voter fraud not actually being an issue.

Dernhelm · May 3, 2018

Lagamorph said:
Ironically though in this case many of the people being turned away are right voting elderly voters.

We'd have to wait to see the overall results, but my God if that turned out to be the case here, just wow; this government cannot stop shooting itself in the foot.

Principate · May 3, 2018

Tacitus said:
What's up with the Anglosphere's (or at least, UK&USA) problem with voter IDs. It's handy as shit, as proving your identity at the polls is basically as strenuous as getting carded while buying alcohol. The only difference is that they scan the bar code at the polls here while cashiers can just look at it.

Alcohol is a product you don't need voting is a right. Now imagine if they were to ask for your ID when you went to buy a bottle of water. The reason why in person voter ID fraud is rare is because you have register your detailed citizen information before you vote and they tell you exactly where to vote. The chances that someone goes through all that just to vote in your name is minimal and for someone to be able to do that on a large scale with a number of voters is even less so. Compare that with the number of people unable to vote because at that specific moment they don't have an ID. It's not like you can come back a week later once you have your ID to go vote.

Deleted member 8561 · May 3, 2018

Tacitus said:
What's up with the Anglosphere's (or at least, UK&USA) problem with voter IDs. It's handy as shit, as proving your identity at the polls is basically as strenuous as getting carded while buying alcohol. The only difference is that they scan the bar code at the polls here while cashiers can just look at it.

Because in the US there are large swaths of people who don't have an official ID that can be used for voting, and while they enact voting regulations they do things in parallel like cutting the hours to government offices (Which are already stretched thin and have limited hours) which makes it more difficult to obtain such an ID.

Oh, and it just so happens that the states who enact voter ID laws and restrict the access to facilities to get an ID just happen to be republican controlled and the people who don't have easy access to voter identification happen to be poor black voters.

So there is obvious implications for a party creating roadblocks for an issue that doesn't exist because it prevents a specific voting block from having ease of voting like other groups of voters, and the inherent implications of making it difficult for blacks to vote in general which ties into the racist history of our nation.

If the people who were advocating for voter ID also were lobbying for a free state ID that gets sent to every household, and assistance to those who don't have the information for such an ID, then I would be more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. But the people who advocate for such things and enact them literally make it harder to get ID's for a specific group of people.

itsgreen · May 3, 2018

Eumi said:
Either?

I just can't see a single positive to this system, what with voter fraud not actually being an issue.

Sounds reasonable enough to me to ask a person to identify himself with proof if they want to vote. But this is the system I am used to all my life.

Eumi · May 3, 2018

itsgreen said:
Sounds reasonable enough to me to ask a person to identify himself with proof if they want to vote. But this is the system I am used to all my life.

But why should we do it? What's the point? What's the benefit?

SeventhEvil · May 3, 2018

Just get a fucking ID...Jesus Christ. Yes, yes it costs money...tough shit.

Deleted member 8561 · May 3, 2018

SeventhEvil said:
Just get a fucking ID...Jesus Christ. Yes, yes it costs money...tough shit.

whoa so tough

Messofanego · May 3, 2018

ReplacementPelican said:
Where does the article discuss racism? What's your evidence for it having a racial angle?

I understand why it definitely does in America but I'm wondering what you're pulling this from or is it just the OPs take as well.

Same question to the OP, actually.

There is very negligible voter fraud as the statistics point out, so why did the Tories implement this? UK has racism, not sure why you're divorcing our country from the racial conversation.

Bony Manifesto · May 3, 2018

Eumi said:
But they don't. And the people who don't are much more likely to be poorer/younger.

I'm not sure about that. Maybe if you're young, still live with your parents, and don't drink, you can get away without any ID, but I don't think you could survive without it if you live independently. Not being able to open a bank account would pretty much lock you out of society - you'd struggle to even find a job that would be willing to pay you cash-in-hand.

That's a separate issue to requiring ID to vote, which is stupid because it's just inserting a layer of bureaucracy that even its advocates admit is entirely unnecessary, as the amount of voter fraud is vanishingly small. And even the argument that it's to improve the 'perception' of voter fraud is nonsense, as not only is that reasoning spurious in itself, they've not even done any sort of study or survey to determine what the public perception of voter fraud even is!

Dernhelm · May 3, 2018

SeventhEvil said:
Just get a fucking ID...Jesus Christ. Yes, yes it costs money...tough shit.

But why though?

hans_castorp · May 3, 2018

Voting without showing your ID sounds alien to me.
It's mandatory in most European countries if I'm not mistaken.

QuicheFontaine · May 3, 2018

Whinge whinge whinge. How about taking some personal responsibility and ensuring that you have the proper documents when you turn up to vote?

Principate · May 3, 2018

QuicheFontaine said:
Whinge whinge whinge. How about taking some personal responsibility and ensuring that you have the proper documents when you turn up to vote?

A yes personal responsibility the good old response to an issue that is scientifically proven to be neglible. What's the next problem that is scientifically proven to have a minimal effect that we need to solve?

Lagamorph · May 3, 2018

Just to point out that the UK scheme also makes provisions for if you don't have ID like a passport or driving licence and allows you to provide a combination of something like a bank card and bank statement/utility bill.

And as I said before, getting ID in the UK is nowhere near as difficult as in the US and doesn't require you to visit a government office at any point, the entire process can be done from your own home or post office.

Deleted member 2171 · May 3, 2018

Tacitus said:
What's up with the Anglosphere's (or at least, UK&USA) problem with voter IDs. It's handy as shit, as proving your identity at the polls is basically as strenuous as getting carded while buying alcohol. The only difference is that they scan the bar code at the polls here while cashiers can just look at it.

Because the IDs are made more expensive, the documents to get the IDs are made more expensive, the offices to get the IDs are closed and the ones remaining are open only during working hours, etc. It's just Jim Crow 5.0. Hell, here in Omaha they just closed our ID center and moved it out to a place that the bus system doesn't even go to. It's always shady shit and 95% of the time it's being done by GOP controlled states and counties.

Also, what are the poll workers comparing your photo to? They don't have access to the photo database, and your name is already on a voter roll. It's near impossible to hijack someone else's vote because if someone rolls up and uses your name, it's either going to raise a red flag if you already voted and someone tries to use your name, or will raise a red flag when you come in and someone has already used your name. There's zero fucking need for photo ID for voting. Voter fraud is not an issue and does not need to be solved.

Heromanz · May 3, 2018

SeventhEvil said:
Just get a fucking ID...Jesus Christ. Yes, yes it costs money...tough shit.

What if you don't have a birth certificate?
Or don't have a car to get to the place. There are plenty of reason for why people don't get IDs. And why should people pay to use thier funadment right?

Tacitus · May 3, 2018

Principate said:
Alcohol is a product you don't need voting is a right. Now imagine if they were to ask for your ID when you went to buy a bottle of water. The reason why in person voter ID fraud is rare is because you have register your detailed citizen information before you vote and they tell you exactly where to vote. The chances that someone goes through all that just to vote in your name is minimal and for someone to be able to do that on a large scale with a number of voters is even less so. Compare that with the number of people unable to vote because at that specific moment they don't have an ID. It's not like you can come back a week later once you have your ID to go vote.

But I don't have to register anything. I just get a letter in the mail with the address of the polling station and instructions (including how to get a free voting ID if you happen to need one).

UK pilots voter ID laws in today's local elections. Goes as you'd expect.

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