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Zutroy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,598
But neither of those are the reason. If you just fixed everything by nationalising it then it's great. But the problems in rural Devon for example aren't fixed just cos it's state owned. The cost is still enormous. And not budgeted for I hasten to add.
That's literally the reason. They're not profitable areas so the private providers don't bother upgrading it. Nationalising it is the first steps to start reaching those areas.
 

Flammable D

Member
Oct 30, 2017
15,205
BBC at it again





That's also something I'd missed from everyone gleefully pouncing on the IFS saying Corbyn's manifesto was nuts: according to them austerity remains!
 

Lee Morris

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,724

You can always tell them this cunt is lying (apart from just knowing word his says is complete bullshit) chase he has a subtle smirk. I'm surprised no one in the media has called him out for it.

In other news a fucking idiotic woman on BBC news at 10 said she doesn't think the scruffy twat is trustworthy but she thinks he's a good person. I wanted to punch my TV. We are fucked.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
You can always tell them this cunt is lying (apart from just knowing word his says is complete bullshit) chase he has a subtle smirk. I'm surprised no one in the media has called him out for it.

In other news a fucking idiotic woman on BBC news at 10 said she doesn't think the scruffy twat is trustworthy but she thinks he's a good person. I wanted to punch my TV. We are fucked.

Anybody that talks like that is basically covering up for the real reason but don't want to be heard saying what they really think. I've noticed that shift more post Brexit vote. It's that or they are clueless, brainwashed but I think it's mostly hate.
 

Cow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,627
YESSS!

It's small but we really needed it after the weekend of polls. And it is from the most reliable poll.
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
This is such a weird post. Nationalisation is step 1 on a very long path.

It's like, if you bought a car to fix it up, it isn't fixed up the moment you take ownership. What are you even thinking?

It's like buying a fixer upper for £1000 knowing it needs £5000 of work to be roadworthy but insisting that you can do it all for your initial £1000 that is now sitting in the garage's bank account.

The idea that public ownership sorts the issues out is madness. The issue is cost. If Labour had set aside the money to do a full rollout then that would be different. But they haven't. Not by a long shot. So there is a better chance of achieving the rollout through government targets, investment and regulation. And a government scheme to make it free for the most hard up.
 

HotHamWater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
684
Dorset, UK
The fucking balls to included anti foreign-nation election tampering in your manifesto while sitting on a report into foreign-nation election tampering because it's findings would harm your campaign.

9Drm8tN.gif
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,351
Upside down
It's like buying a fixer upper for £1000 knowing it needs £5000 of work to be roadworthy but insisting that you can do it all for your initial £1000 that is now sitting in the garage's bank account.

The idea that public ownership sorts the issues out is madness. The issue is cost. If Labour had set aside the money to do a full rollout then that would be different. But they haven't. Not by a long shot. So there is a better chance of achieving the rollout through government targets, investment and regulation. And a government scheme to make it free for the most hard up.
A lot.of money has been given to openreach and they haven't done much with it. They can't be trusted to do it.
 

Tzarscream

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,945
Not going well is it?

Not looking forward to the American West style bar fight that will occur when there's a new Labour leadership contest.
 

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,341
It's like buying a fixer upper for £1000 knowing it needs £5000 of work to be roadworthy but insisting that you can do it all for your initial £1000 that is now sitting in the garage's bank account.

The idea that public ownership sorts the issues out is madness. The issue is cost. If Labour had set aside the money to do a full rollout then that would be different. But they haven't. Not by a long shot. So there is a better chance of achieving the rollout through government targets, investment and regulation. And a government scheme to make it free for the most hard up.

Dude if they have a plan to do it, why are you shitting on it? Do you work in government?
 

Megabreath

Member
Oct 25, 2018
2,667
Hey guys, just a quickie. Where did the Tories find extra cash for what they're promising without raising taxes?

Where i work most people are on zero hour contracts and minimum wage, yet they all hate Corbyn, it truly is sad what the media has done to this country.
 

brain_stew

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,743
Hey guys, just a quickie. Where did the Tories find extra cash for what they're promising without raising taxes?

Where i work most people are on zero hour contracts and minimum wage, yet they all hate Corbyn, it truly is sad what the media has done to this country.

Charging immigrants to use the NHS, reversing a planned corporation tax cut and "fiscal headroom" (that will be utterly obliterated after their damaging Brexit deal but let's not sweat the details eh?).

I'm really torn on this Labour WASPI promise as it's a bit of a mockery of their carefully costed manifesto. My worry is that it will simply reinforce in voters minds the feeling that they can't trust Corbyn's Labour to control spending. If they're breaking their own fiscal rules just a couple of days after launching their manifesto, how can they be trusted to follow them when in government?

The Tory manifesto is far too unambitious, the whole country is in agreement that austerity needs to end and yet here we are with a Tory manifesto with austerity still going strong, I really hope it backfires as it should. For comparison the Lib Dem's increase in current spending (who were purportedly continuing austerity according to this thread) is more than 21 times higher than the Conservative's and Labour's (pre WASPI) increase is more than 28 times higher than the Tory's.
 

Arkestry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,921
London
Hey guys, just a quickie. Where did the Tories find extra cash for what they're promising without raising taxes?

Where i work most people are on zero hour contracts and minimum wage, yet they all hate Corbyn, it truly is sad what the media has done to this country.
They didn't. Either their promises are bullshit (like 50000 new nurses or 40 new hospitals), or they're going to just inflate the debt even more. It's all nonsense.
 

Lee Morris

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,724
Not looking likely, if the UK rejects him now he'll almost surely stand down and the country will have had its chance for a different path for the next 10~20 years.

I can't imagine how I'll feel in the Tories get in. What a horrible Christmas it will be

Anybody that talks like that is basically covering up for the real reason but don't want to be heard saying what they really think. I've noticed that shift more post Brexit vote. It's that or they are clueless, brainwashed but I think it's mostly hate.

Well if they are covering up what they really want to say but come out with idiotic statement like that then God knows what they must really be thinking.

I'm going to go on record and say these polls are bullshit. It really doesn't matter what a large percentage of people vote for, it's all about the marginals. I live in the 3rd safest Tory seat in the country and my vote means jack shit. It's really infuriating.
 
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Salty_Josh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,942
It's a joke that Boris was on tv during debates saying yes austerity is bad, but when it started he was just the mayor of London, implying he doesn't agree with austerity and he was going to change it. Then he releases this manifesto and it's just more austerity. He's the biggest crook in Britain.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
Hull, England
I just don't understand how anyone could vote for the Tories, Boris is a joke & their manifesto is beyond trash. I live in a Labour safe seat thankfully but many of the smaller villages and towns around my city vote Tory which is depressing.
 

Ando

Member
Apr 21, 2018
744
hopefully today we might see the tory manifesto start to crumble



- central policy is a lie
- lying about having a social care policy for months then missing one out
- contempt of suggesting so little for 5 years

might depend on the willingness of the bbc to point out lies though
 

massivekettle

Banned
Aug 7, 2018
678
So based on this, you are telling me that a lot of private companies are operating on a "small to nil" profit margin because they care about our health? Or why would any private entity operate under those conditions?

At this point I am really not sure if you have an understanding of what is happening with the NHS.

Also: all your Corbyn stuff is... baseless. You have not provide a backing to your views, nada.

Re: the NHS, private operators would rather ONLY take private customers (either self-pay or private insurance), as those are by far the most profitable, especially the former, but there aren't enough of them to meet the "supply" of private healthcare services (and associated cost base). Given how a large part of a private operator's costs are FIXED, this means that you do need a high number of patients to break even, hence why it is vital for private operators to accept NHS patients even if they probably don't make very much profit from it (just like the NHS itself, except that its profits are re-invested/socialised).

What is baseless? About the IOF being effectively a corporate tax rate in disguise? Read this: https://www.cliffordchance.com/cont...ship-funds-nationalising-10-of-everything.pdf
 

Ravensmash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,797
Tory manifesto is so safe and boring.

The only people I can see it appealing to is little Englanders who are perfectly happy with their lot, and live in a bubble.
 

GrizzleBoy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,762
T
hopefully today we might see the tory manifesto start to crumble



- central policy is a lie
- lying about having a social care policy for months then missing one out
- contempt of suggesting so little for 5 years

might depend on the willingness of the bbc to point out lies though

Holy Crap.........
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
Dude if they have a plan to do it, why are you shitting on it? Do you work in government?

I know about the costs and issues with replacing the copper fibre network (and no I don't work for BT). Labour are saying there is £15BN to spend. It won't touch the sides and most of that will go in the nationalisation. Along with thousands of jobs. What will they do with the thousands of people they make unemployed?

Then they will need a huge, huge amount more to sort the fast fibre everywhere promise. Like orders of magnitude more.
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
Tory manifesto is so safe and boring.

The only people I can see it appealing to is little Englanders who are perfectly happy with their lot, and live in a bubble.

So the largest portion of the result deciding electorate then?

Also the Tories are incredibly dangerous - the worst incarnation of the Tories I can remember. But the point is that if you think their manifesto is "safe and boring" they've done their job. Because that's the exact thing they go for. "We're a safe but dull pair of hands". Before they rip out the welfare state and privatise the rest of the NHS.
 

Ravensmash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,797
So the largest portion of the result deciding electorate then?

Also the Tories are incredibly dangerous - the worst incarnation of the Tories I can remember. But the point is that if you think their manifesto is "safe and boring" they've done their job. Because that's the exact thing they go for. "We're a safe but dull pair of hands". Before they rip out the welfare state and privatise the rest of the NHS.

Possibly poor wording on my part - what I mean is that even the parts that they're promoting as "ambitious" or "positive" are completely humdrum in comparison to every other party.

That doesn't exclude the nefarious stuff hidden deep down.
 

Arkestry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,921
London
So the largest portion of the result deciding electorate then?

Also the Tories are incredibly dangerous - the worst incarnation of the Tories I can remember. But the point is that if you think their manifesto is "safe and boring" they've done their job. Because that's the exact thing they go for. "We're a safe but dull pair of hands". Before they rip out the welfare state and privatise the rest of the NHS.
I think it's becoming clear the narrative is more that is woefully inadequate and outright misleading, not to mention mostly bereft of substance and detail.
 

massivekettle

Banned
Aug 7, 2018
678
I know about the costs and issues with replacing the copper fibre network (and no I don't work for BT). Labour are saying there is £15BN to spend. It won't touch the sides and most of that will go in the nationalisation. Along with thousands of jobs. What will they do with the thousands of people they make unemployed?

Then they will need a huge, huge amount more to sort the fast fibre everywhere promise. Like orders of magnitude more.

Yep. And that doesn't include the mountain of lawsuits the Government would be facing if it actually lowballs BT investors.

There's a reason why fibre hasn't been laid out everywhere. IMO, 5G is a lot more cost-effective for remote locations.
 

Guppeth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,879
Sheffield, UK
I know about the costs and issues with replacing the copper fibre network (and no I don't work for BT). Labour are saying there is £15BN to spend. It won't touch the sides and most of that will go in the nationalisation. Along with thousands of jobs. What will they do with the thousands of people they make unemployed?
They pledged 20.3BN, not including the cost of nationalisation.


There is a one-off capital cost to roll-out the full-fibre network of £15.3 billion (in addition to the Government's existing and not-yet-spent £5 billion commitment), which will be paid for from our Green Transformation Fund;

The cost of bringing parts of BT into public ownership be set by Parliament and paid for by swapping bonds for shares, as occurs with other public ownership processes;

edit: also, won't the national broadband require employees to run it?
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
Yep. And that doesn't include the mountain of lawsuits the Government would be facing if it actually lowballs BT investors.

There's a reason why fibre hasn't been laid out everywhere. IMO, 5G is a lot more cost-effective for remote locations.

Cost and somtimes insurmountable difficulties, such as land ownership.

To get to 90% coverage you're looking at between 30 and 50BN. The last 10%? Probably that again plus more on top. Its an absolutely huge problem to solve.

5G might be the way - but equally many of those areas without broadband don't have any 4G either...or at least lots of signal blackspots.
 

GrizzleBoy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,762
I know about the costs and issues with replacing the copper fibre network (and no I don't work for BT). Labour are saying there is £15BN to spend. It won't touch the sides and most of that will go in the nationalisation. Along with thousands of jobs. What will they do with the thousands of people they make unemployed?

Then they will need a huge, huge amount more to sort the fast fibre everywhere promise. Like orders of magnitude more.
Network providers like plusnet or talk talk basically just pay BT to use their infrastructure and then lump their own cost on top of that to make a profit.

If the infrastructure is owned by the government, then plusnet and talk talk will just be paying the government instead.

If it ends up working like that then I assume labour's mission will be to provide a baseline of minimum internet availability to everyone while the providers will be able to charge more for a faster service.
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
Sad thing is their manifesto probably reasonates, they aren't being reckless with money narrative, brexit/EU is the source of all problems, token more cops, nurses even if it's misleading, throw in some immigration hate.

It sickeningly works for people when Corbyn is made out to be the anti christ on top. I really hope the public they wheel out on the news aren't the majority but I worry.
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
Network providers like plusnet or talk talk basically just pay BT to use their infrastructure and then lump their own cost on top of that to make a profit.

If the infrastructure is owned by the government, then plusnet and talk talk will just be paying the government instead.

If it ends up working like that then I assume labour's mission will be to provide a baseline of minimum internet availability to everyone while the providers will be able to charge more for a faster service.

Labour are promising full fibre for everyone. There will be no plusnet or anyone else. Everyone (in reality its undeliverble but the promise is) will get the full fat fibre free of charge from the national supplier.
 
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