U.S. tourist faces 12 years in prison after taking ammunition to Turks and Caicos
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That's by a prohibited person in the US. Someone who can't own firearms to begin with. Does not apply here. Surely there's some other law that covers this scenario.
So far all I can find are stories about some fines, being let off with a warning, and some pat downs/questioning behind closed doors.
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Probably but we can't tell that yet. I haven't been able to find any instances of black American tourists being arrested for this yet. If I had to guess that's because white Americans are generally wealthier, disproportionately travel internationally, and from what people have said in this thread, more like to fly domestically to go hunting, it seems. But people don't generally understand absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. On/offline conspiracy theorizing contributes too.
There's a general frustration in the Caribbean with the US around guns. I hope this Bloomberg gift link works.
In ‘War on Guns,’ Caribbean Allies Ask Which Side the US Is On
Almost all the region’s murder weapons were bought in America. ‘The right to bear arms in the United States,’ one prime minister notes, ‘does not mean that there is also a right to traffic those arms.’
www.bloomberg.com
Smuggling involves avoiding tariffs and import taxes on goods, so I am not so sure that applies either.
That's really the key, I think. It's not difficult to imagine the train of thought. "He has a gun, so he's probably a gun nut." (Already wrong, especially since it was hunting ammunition.) "He's a gun nut, so he's probably republican." (Not necessarily, there are gun nuts on the left too.) "He's republican, so he's probably a Trump fanatic." (Debatable.) "He's a Trump fanatic, so fuck him, lock him and throw away the key." Common sense vanishes when talking about people who may potentially be on your shit list.
12 years seems too harsh, will be interesting to see if that's what he actually gets. I imagine based on the other similar stories (hey Americans, stop carrying bullets everywhere what the fuck?!) that he'll get given some jail time but will either post bail or only serve part of the sentence and be allowed to leave the country so it just becomes an effective ban on him ever coming back.
Which, a ban on him ever coming back seems very reasonable. Should probably have whatever gun license he has revoked when he gets back to the US but I doubt that'll happen.
Which, a ban on him ever coming back seems very reasonable. Should probably have whatever gun license he has revoked when he gets back to the US but I doubt that'll happen.
He is from Oklahoma. There probably isn't any license to revoke. US gun laws are horribly broken.
We're on a roll this week. Cheerleading for deporting refugees and drafting them into the war they fled from in another thread and now this one is rocking a lot of "Don't be so strict guys, he just committed the whoopsie of accidentally smuggling live ammunition into a foreign country! Could happen to anyone! We're responsible gun owners lololol."
It's just wild how out of touch people are to bandy that line around, not realizing that carrying guns and ammunition at all is illegal in other countries. Americans don't get special passes because you live in a wild west larp country. I don't think anyone is saying 12 years is reasonable, but a fine is equally ridiculous. Just punishes the poor and doesn't mean anything to rich tourists.
It's just wild how out of touch people are to bandy that line around, not realizing that carrying guns and ammunition at all is illegal in other countries. Americans don't get special passes because you live in a wild west larp country. I don't think anyone is saying 12 years is reasonable, but a fine is equally ridiculous. Just punishes the poor and doesn't mean anything to rich tourists.
It happens more often than you may think even in America. I'm in Pennsylvania and if I go to Jersey which is 20 minutes from my house I'm not only illegal, I am committing a felony as soon I cross the bridge. It happens with weed, guns and even certain tools. So yeah I get how this could been seen as an honest mistake to people who live in the US while still understanding the severity of the infraction.
It's our responsibility to know the gun laws where we will travel with firearms, drugs, tools. I just don't get the following:
- Having a gun or ammo in a bag that I would take on a non-shooting related trip (I have specific bags for them to avoid this very thing)
- Forgetting or not considering that you have a gun or ammo in a bag
- Traveling to an area where the rules for having a gun or ammo isn't the same as where I'm from or assuming the rules are the same because....reasons?
- Doing all three sequentially with zero consideration for the consequences.
It's honest incompetence. Which is no excuse. The onus is on the grown adult to know the laws where they are traveling and do NOT assume.
The Russian invasion of Ukraine literally has nothing to do with this.
Anyway. No one's saying he's innocent. We're saying he's negligent and should face consequences. Yes, T&C should have complete sovereignty to enforce their domestic laws, but I also guarantee you more than a few people in this thread would be up in arms were this a more sympathetic (to them) person who carried drugs (legal in their country) to another country which authorizes severe punishment for drug trafficking.
I'm as anti-gun as you come.
I understand the viewpoint that a fine only makes this a rich person's game, but permanently banning someone from T&C, some suspended punishment, and some restitution is probably the right answer. Blend that with some time served during judicial processing and it's likely enough. He's never returning to T&C, and it's enough of a public dissuasion to advance the very real, legitimate, and important objective to keep guns and ammunition off the islands.
Actually, the experts and science say it's the same thing. That's not to say the ramifications are the same of the result of it happening, but what causes it to happen is the same. You don't choose to forget something and it's been shown that the gut reaction that many people have about how a parent could forget their child in a car is flat out wrong when you look at why it actually happens. The science shows that anyone can forget their child in a car and that it's wrong to assume that it could never happen to you.
What about amputations for theft? Should we bring those back as well — can't slap the wrist though.
12 years can be too harsh but at the same time, this is a clear reflection at just how lackadaisical we treat guns. Complete indifference and carelessness. I would freak out at bringing a pocket knife but we have idiotic americans"forgetting" they packed a gun/ammo in their luggage.
Thats what happens when we have mass shootings and non existent gun control. We just assume that other countries will just laugh and hand wave it as well. No sympathy here and perhaps let these guys be a warning to the rest of us that think this is inconsequential.
Thats what happens when we have mass shootings and non existent gun control. We just assume that other countries will just laugh and hand wave it as well. No sympathy here and perhaps let these guys be a warning to the rest of us that think this is inconsequential.
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Lmao. I doubt he'll get 12 years but probably something like the other guy.
And they went to the press for this to act like victims? Yeah, you might never recover from this but it was your mistake.
And they went to the press for this to act like victims? Yeah, you might never recover from this but it was your mistake.
Then let's say your country had people smuggling in weapons and/or ammunition and then murdering people.
Like look at the article posted above that most murder weapons in the Carribbean have been brought in from America.
Many Americans knowing that they could just pay a fine if caught so it didn't matter to them.
If you were a citizen of one of these countries and you kept hearing that someone has been murdered by guns smuggled in from America.
How angry would you be? How harsh of a punishment would you want for smugglers?
It's also weird that people are hung up on the maximum sentence for the offence.
Do people not understand that it's the same crime if they try and smuggle 5 bullets or 10,000 and so there is a range of for sentencing?
Prison sentence with no prior related offences, and no indication that he's involved in criminal activity like that, is ridiculous. I know some places have issues with drugs, and therefore have death sentences for trafficking. I find that ridiculous too even though I can understand how the people think.
I didn't know Era had a lot of people into populist tough on crime shit.
I live in MAGA methhead country and bought my first firearm (along with a safe) in 2021 and many after, have a conceal carry permit, never made use of it though. Guy is a fucking idiot using a travel bag he also uses to transport ammo and whatever else, even as a convenience thing while out hunting, a dedicated range or whatever bag doesn't cost that much, I got two of them for firearm specific purposes. Keeping shit separate isn't that complicated. However 12 years is ridiculous for four misplaced rounds primarily used for hunting but he won't get that and mandatory minimums are bullshit steeped in racism in how they're enforced and shouldn't be a thing anywhere.
The closest analog though would probably be New Jersey's stupid ban on hollow points... except for law enforcement of course.
Probably to keep them dry while hunting.
The TSA hasn't really stopped anything, it was created to be security theater after 9/11 to help airlines and make people feel safe so they'd fly again. It's the ultimate example of looking busy doing nothing. Ever seen the nonsense the TSA shares on their hauls of "dangerous items" they've confiscated? It's like the NYPD patting themselves on the back for busting someone who had a Nerf gun. Or police departments making productions showing off of their drug busts by exaggering the values of what they got.
Individual state laws on firearm transport and conceal carry laws, there's sites out there dedicated to showing gun owners stricter states to avoid driving through because they don't recognise other state's permits and it could lead to a bunch of legal problems if you get pulled over in one of those states.
The closest analog though would probably be New Jersey's stupid ban on hollow points... except for law enforcement of course.
Definetely can't when there's no wrist left to slap.
I am ignorant of the laws of your country.
I am ignorant of what is in my own luggage.
Therefore, I am completely innocent.
I am ignorant of what is in my own luggage.
Therefore, I am completely innocent.
but just leaving bullets everywhere is so American, there should be a lee greenwood song about finding bullets in an old jacket. please don't prosecute Americans for being American, these are our core values
(I don't want to the guy to get 12 years, to be clear)
(I don't want to the guy to get 12 years, to be clear)
No one saying he is completely innocent but 12 years is extreme for a mistake. Hopefully he just gets a fine or less than a year sentence
Maybe I'm dumb but didn't this happen when he was leaving T&C? Wouldn't that mean he got the bullets there?
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No, he admitted it was hunting rounds. The TSA missed it.
It would make no sense to get hunting rounds there. He had no weapon.
1000% this. It varies from state to state for sure. For example, in Alabama and recently here in South Carolina you only have to be a legal adult (18) to buy a firearm. The relationship some parts of our country have with firearms is way too lackadasial and thats why we get "oopsies" like forgetting where ammo is lying around. We should not be treating guns and ammo like everyday objects and he took himself to a country where they arent and hes subject to their laws.
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If you got bullets in TC, as a tourist, you are incredibly dumb.
I mean it's possible both TSA and T&C missed it when they arrived and it was in their luggage the whole time.
Some people don't travel enough to have more than one kind of bags, but yeah you really should be double checking just to make sure nothing prohibited gets found. Even mundane items that you can't bring can cause you to miss your flight, so it's always worth the couple of extra minutes to make sure.
I'm as anti gun as they come, but even I think a fine or a ban is going too far. It was an honest mistake, in the same realm as misplacing your chapstick or eating your own boogers. At worst the man should be given some ice cream, an apology, and a kiss on the cheek.
I know having the TSA better check baggage is useless. I meant something a little below a State dept travel advisory. I don't know who would be responsible for that or how exactly to implement it. I don't know how the normal travel advisory system works. But it seems like there's something that could be done to warn people. Each individual is a one-off mistake but from T&C's viewpoint, it's a problem that happens continuously that they want stopped.
My buddy accidentally brought his gun to hobby airport in Houston (it's actually quite common) and TSA just told him to take it back home.
In sure this happens alot in Oklahoma too and 4 bullets would prob be missed in check in luggage.
12 years is insanity.
In sure this happens alot in Oklahoma too and 4 bullets would prob be missed in check in luggage.
12 years is insanity.
A friend once accidentally left a big camping knife from a previous trick into his carry-on, and it wasn't detected. It was a domestic flight (from Vermont to Wyoming). He noticed after he landed, and found it funny the full-body scanner detected a piece of lint in his pocket but not the knife.
He should have checked his bags for sure but 12 years is insane and not remotely justifiable.
He should have checked his bags for sure but 12 years is insane and not remotely justifiable.
This is just factually a valid defense to many "possession" crimes. At common law, possession requires knowledge and control. If you don't have knowledge, you didn't do a crime.
No one said they were connected. I said that between that thread and this one, I've been really shocked at the takes on this site this week.
No one has said 12 years is good. The guy hasn't been given 12 years. That's the max and there's tons of precedent posted in the thread that shows he'll probably get only the time served. People are not engaging honestly with the 12 years reactions because the guy isn't realistically up against that and literally no one is arguing he should be.
On the other hand, multiple people here have said there should be no repercussions whatsoever or a slap on the wrist at most. There is a very clear lackadaisical approach to the very concept of misplacing live ammunition in general in this thread. Yes, people are forgetful and anyone can forget something--that's exactly why responsible gun owners should be taking extra precautions when handling their guns and ammunition. You should know where your guns and ammo are at all times. There's an entitlement on display that other countries should forgive that carelessness when most of the world has outlawed possession of said items and responsible gun owners should never accidentally be taking ammunition anywhere.
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You all are pathetic. Seriously, what's it like to be perfect and never make an honest mistake that didn't harm anyone else or anything? Clowns.
Yep, it's laughable. Fuck every single one of those that are essentially hoping this person spends time in a cell for this.
