RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,750
Then that would make him even more careless with that example. The probability of ammo being in that bag is higher because he's used it to carry ammo around before and he should be aware and more thorough before taking that bag in and out of other countries.
I see what you're saying for sure, I guess it's just a difference of framing. Careless implies (well doesn't really imply, it's just what it is) that someone doesn't care, but we know that even when people care, or even when people are intentional, that mistakes can happen because people aren't infallible. Careless, at least to me implies some level of deliberate negligence, because the person didn't care, and maybe that was the case here or maybe it wasn't, the article doesn't give a lot of details aside from him recognizing it was a bonehead mistake. Like let's say he knew they might be in there and deliberately checked the bag, but he just didn't see them, to me that's different than not bothering to check at all, because that means he cared enough to check.
Do you think they're going to randomly go off in the suitcase?
I don't know if most people realize that most airlines allow ammunition in checked baggage, ammunition on a plane is pretty common.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,131
I definitely don't want to ever be on the same plane as you


I am very anti-gun, but loose bullets aren't a threat. There's no malicious intent here. There's no weapon. 12 years.

I'm for common sense prevailing in all legal matters. Give them a fine. Give them a suspended sentence if you have to. But months or even years in prison over thoughtlessness that resulted in no threats, damage, or injuries is bloodthirstiness for the sake of it.
 

bananas

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,903
The people saying "It was *just* bullets" - you have to realize how....incredible (and not in a good way) that sounds to people from countries that aren't the US. I'm not sure what word I'm looking for, maybe desensitised? Wow.
What? You scared someone's gonna throw them at you really, really hard?
 

Vourlis

Member
Aug 14, 2022
3,802
United States
Guns and ammunition do not have any sort of mystical property wherein they operate differently from anything else that people can forget about or make a mistake about. If you would have sympathy if it were a set of keys, I don't know why this wouldn't apply to bullets, when you break it down the act is the forgetting which could happen with anything, right? There is negligence, and there is an honest mistake. I do think if this were a case where harm was done, that's a totally different story, they would need to be held responsible for that harm even if they didn't mean it, that's why there are different things to charge people with. It just feels like some are approaching this from an entirely vindictive place because guns, which idk I guess is not all that unsurprising really given the state of at least the US.

Sorry, no. Do better and yes, fuck guns.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,131
They could.
https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/technical-answers/ammunition-safety-never-carry-live-ammunition-in-your-pocket-this-is-why-135085/

Bullets are little bombs and potentially dangerous without a gun. And of course it's relatively easy to make your own gun to fire them so "It's just bullets" is not an argument.


Yes it is. Look at posts above telling you that it's not uncommon for people to declare ammunition in their checked luggage. This person wasn't alleged to have made their own gun or any such nonsense. People are inventing increasingly unlikely scenarios to justify their opinions and it's ridiculous.
 

nitewulf

Member
Nov 29, 2017
7,255
I do feel bad for the guy but that's a major, major red flag. You can't be carrying contraband into a foreign country.
 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,142
People often don't even serve 12 years for negligent homicide in the US. That's just a bananas sentence for a handful of bullets, no gun, and no obvious intent to inflict harm.

Airlines transport ammunition in checked bags all the time. FYI

Being worried about ammunition spontaneously going off seems a little paranoid when we have lithium ion batteries going off on planes all the time.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,131
No, I don't, but also does it matter?

Is it really that controversial to not want Americans to randomly and casually carry bullets wherever they go in the world?


No and no one is saying there should be no consequences for it. But common sense should prevail over unwarranted prison sentences.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,750
Sorry, no. Do better and yes, fuck guns.
You have no idea of my circumstances or who I am, but I'm impressed you have single-handedly been able to resolve the gun issue with the incredibly nuanced position of "fuck guns" and "do better". You don't think it would be at all prudent to ask hey, why do you feel the need to own a firearm? Or in your mind is there just zero justification, not a single circumstance you can envision, ever?
 
OP
OP
entremet

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,928
I do feel bad for the guy but that's a major, major red flag. You can't be carrying contraband into a foreign country.
I think that's the issue.

I'm confident the sentences will either be massively commuted or completely struck down by the Supreme Court of that country. But they have their own due process to follow.

Most of us are not psychopaths wanting this for honest mistakes. I don't.

The issue is that when you travel internationally, you gotta be way more careful, know the laws, than some roadtrip. It's a weird American entitlement.

People often don't even serve 12 years for negligent homicide in the US. That's just a bananas sentence for a handful of bullets, no gun, and no obvious intent to inflict harm.



Being worried about ammunition spontaneously going off seems a little paranoid when we have lithium ion batteries going off on planes all the time.

Their country. Their laws. It's an automatic sentence, but as I posted in the last page. It will need to be resolved by the T&C Supreme Court.
 

Nigel Tufnel

Member
Mar 5, 2019
3,175
I think 12 years in jail is a pretty horrifying prospect and I hope the guy finds a better resolution than that for himself, but also find myself having limited sympathy for being so negligent with ammunition that you accidentally traveled internationally with it, to a place with stringent laws prohibiting you from doing that.
 

jonamok

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,201
So, we're okay lecturing other countries what is and isn't a fair deterrent to dissuade people from illegally smuggling literal "explosives" into/out of their territory now?

"But it's just some loose BULLETS!"

Note: I hope he doesn't get 12 years of course. But in terms of cautionary tales he's potentially a very useful idiot.
 

Pluto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,552
Yes it is. Look at posts above telling you that it's not uncommon for people to declare ammunition in their checked luggage.
If people declare ammunition they obviously know it's in there. This guy apparently forgot and this means he did not do any precautions and of course what people do in the US is completely irrelevant when it comes to entering a different country, local laws apply not US ones.

This person wasn't alleged to have made their own gun or any such nonsense. People are inventing increasingly unlikely scenarios to justify their opinions and it's ridiculous.
I didn't say he made his own gun or planned to but that people can do that is likely the reason than bringing ammunition without a gun into the country is just as illegal and carries a mandatory prison sentence.
Obviously 12 years is excessive and he shouldn't be locked away that long but he did break the law which makes him a criminal.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,131
Obviously 12 years is excessive and he shouldn't be locked away that long but he did break the law which makes him a criminal.


Then we're arguing over each other for no reason. I'm not against holding him accountable, but it should be common sense accountability for what he did and not what if scenarios.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,750
This is the most American thing I've read in a while. Do you understand how insane this sounds to most of the rest of the world?
What part of that statement is not objectively accurate, and how? The same way that someone can forget their keys in their car, they can forget a round in their suitcase. We shouldn't be arguing over how forgetting things works. Does that mean those two things are an _exact_ 1:1 similarity? Of course not, but forgetting something is forgetting something. There are of course different consequences for forgetting different things depending on the circumstance.
 

Lexxism

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,840
Toronto
User Banned (3 Days): Low-effort drive-by trolling
I knew it the Americans on this forum wouldn't like it. It's their second amendment being violated :)
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,734
Arizona
What part of that statement is not objectively accurate, and how? The same way that someone can forget their keys in their car, they can forget a round in their suitcase. We shouldn't be arguing over how forgetting things works. Does that mean those two things are an _exact_ 1:1 similarity? Of course not, but forgetting something is forgetting something. There are of course different consequences for forgetting different things depending on the circumstance.
Their capacity to kill - nay, their explicit and direct purpose to do so - inherently imbues a requirement to treat them with more gravitas than keys, something you give a toddler to entertain them for a bit, fucking yes.

Though by all means argue about how "forgetting things works" in relation to the difference between leaving your keys in your car, versus leaving the aforementioned toddler in the car. After all, it's just forgetting things.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,749
I live in a common law jurisdiction (like T&C). Where I live, it's unconstitutional to hand down a sentence with custodial time if there's no mens rea element of the offence. I figure since this is essentially a territory of the UK that there is probably something analogous that would essentially render it impossible for a person to receive a twelve year sentence on something they do by accident since this principle is derived from the common law. Again, I know close to nothing of other jurisdictions, but where I live if the prosecutor couldn't prove knowledge the prosecution would be over. This most commonly comes up when two people are arrested on a weapons possession type charge but only one of them knew the weapon was there, but it's equally applicable to a case like this.

All that is to say that I would be very surprised if this ends in any jail time, if indeed it results in a conviction at all.
 

Lmo2017

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,148
To the east of Parts Unknown...
The sentence is crazy, but there's definitely some US perspective seeping into letting this guy off easy. Other countries just don't let you wander around with a bunch of bullets in a bag. They rationally connect it to criminal activity because their rules limit who has access to guns, and so bullets are red flags. Just because we keep them in a zip lock back like a launchable (WTF is that anyway?) doesn't mean the rest of the world should just throw their laws away. Should there be provisions for foreign visitors in the country? Yes, but then you create loopholes where people can just hire an American to walk guns/bullets into the country they don't want.
 

FizzMino

Shinra Employee
Member
Sep 15, 2022
3,266
Colorado, USA
Era: Long prison sentences and the death penalty are wrong always!

Also Era: Yeah this dude deserves prison for having 4 hunting rounds accidentaly in his luggage.

I swear some of you just pick whichever stance you think is most "righteous" at the moment and argue for it no matter how absurd it is. I mean jesus the guy isn't a known criminal or anything, he's a dad on vacation who fucked up. But you're right lets throw him in a caribean prison for a few years.
 

Ryno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
672
I can't take anyone's compassion at all seriously when you have add in a "but" to try to justify the prison sentence
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,750
Their capacity to kill - nay, their explicit and direct purpose to do so - inherently imbues a requirement to treat them with more gravitas than keys, something you give a toddler to entertain them for a bit, fucking yes.

Though by all means argue about how "forgetting things works" in relation to the difference between leaving your keys in your car, versus leaving the aforementioned toddler in the car. After all, it's just forgetting things.
I don't know how you quoted an entire post and managed to miss half of it, where I specifically state they are not 1:1 the exact same and that there are of course different consequences. Wild.

Do you understand that even when treating things with gravitas, it is possible to make a mistake? Do you sincerely believe that because something is important, it becomes somehow magically impossible to make a mistake or forget something? Please tell me that never once in your life did you make a mistake or forget something important. Why did you just not do that?
 

Saito

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,822
One less gun owner to worry about for a few years, can't find much to get upset about here.
 

Dhx

Member
Sep 27, 2019
1,746
There are some really terrible and ignorant takes in this thread. It's hunting ammunition for fucks sake, and has nothing to do with "gun culture" or whatever warped view you want to imprint upon it.

One less gun owner to worry about for a few years, can't find much to get upset about here.

Case in point. What a ridiculous take.

The glee some of you are expousing without any attempt at empathy or understanding just because it checks your "GUNS, US, BAD" boxes really out you as unserious thinkers.
 
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ErrorJustin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,476
Does *intent* not matter to people any longer?

12 years is CRAZY. It helps no one and makes no one any safer.

No one was hurt and, importantly, there is not a scenario in which someone could have *become* hurt.

Common sense should prevail.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,749
Era: Long prison sentences and the death penalty are wrong always!

Also Era: Yeah this dude deserves prison for having 4 hunting rounds accidentaly in his luggage.

I swear some of you just pick whichever stance you think is most "righteous" at the moment and argue for it no matter how absurd it is.
This thread is such an odd confluence of things. Does anyone actually think it's justified to sentence someone to twelve years in prison for accidentally including ammunition in their bag? Where I live, 12 years is about what you'd get on a firearms manslaughter.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,131
This thread is such an odd confluence of things. Does anyone actually think it's justified to sentence someone to twelve years in prison for accidentally including ammunition in their bag? Where I live, 12 years is about what you'd get on a firearms manslaughter.


Tribalism really has its hooks into people. As long as the miscarriage of justice is happening to "them" then we're supposed to cheer it on.
 

Vourlis

Member
Aug 14, 2022
3,802
United States
You have no idea of my circumstances or who I am, but I'm impressed you have single-handedly been able to resolve the gun issue with the incredibly nuanced position of "fuck guns" and "do better". You don't think it would be at all prudent to ask hey, why do you feel the need to own a firearm? Or in your mind is there just zero justification, not a single circumstance you can envision, ever?

Gun owners need to do better. That, or the government should regulate more (they should just legislate harsher restrictions and punishments at this point. Too many stupid people with guns). It's not nuanced. The current laws are not being enforced and new laws should be put up to curtail the insane amount of firearms and utter thoughtlessness of the owners of them.

And so what, you don't know me either. Doesn't have anything to do with the point of this idiot walking around with ammo in his vacation travel bag...
 

Apath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,147
Unless you're in the habbit of completely clearing your suitcase after each trip, it would be a very easy mistake to bring forgotten items in your suitcase on your next trip. That's especially likely if he's using his suitcase for regular hunting trips. I often come across small items in suitcase pockets I either missed or completely forgot to check. It happens.

12 years is absolutely outrageous either way.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,750
Era: Long prison sentences and the death penalty are wrong always!

Also Era: Yeah this dude deserves prison for having 4 hunting rounds accidentaly in his luggage.

I swear some of you just pick whichever stance you think is most "righteous" at the moment and argue for it no matter how absurd it is. I mean jesus the guy isn't a known criminal or anything, he's a dad on vacation who fucked up. But you're right lets throw him in a caribean prison for a few years.
There is a huge hatred of all gun owners regardless of circumstance. I don't think there's any issue with hating guns, that's a fair stance, but to throw all gun owners, even leftist gun owners or ranchers/farmers or stalking/abuse victims or people doing important conservation work to local deer populations into a bucket of the enemy, it's just ignorant imo to completely eschew context in that case.
Unless you're in the habbit of completely clearing your suitcase after each trip, it would be a very easy mistake to bring forgotten items in your suitcase on your next trip. That's especially likely if he's using his suitcase for regular hunting trips. I often come across small items in suitcase pockets I either missed or completely forgot to check. It happens.
Exactly. I do think if you know you use a bag or suitcase or whatever for guns/ammunition, it's really important to completely clear it out, that's part of the responsibility of being a gun owner. But we know, because people are human, even if someone does this they may miss something; not because they don't care, but because, like you said, it happens.
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,827
DFW
Era: Long prison sentences and the death penalty are wrong always!

Also Era: Yeah this dude deserves prison for having 4 hunting rounds accidentaly in his luggage.

I swear some of you just pick whichever stance you think is most "righteous" at the moment and argue for it no matter how absurd it is. I mean jesus the guy isn't a known criminal or anything, he's a dad on vacation who fucked up. But you're right lets throw him in a caribean prison for a few years.
This is ResetEra. Threads are just venues to stake out priors. Unless this man's young son also throws him to the wolves and denounces his crime, he's not pure enough either.

Anyway, the man isn't getting 12 years, so it's a little moot. T&C needs to demonstrate both seriousness (to show its laws have meaning) and compassion (for tourism purposes).
 

Tamino

Member
Jan 2, 2024
31
Era: Long prison sentences and the death penalty are wrong always!

Also Era: Yeah this dude deserves prison for having 4 hunting rounds accidentaly in his luggage.

I swear some of you just pick whichever stance you think is most "righteous" at the moment and argue for it no matter how absurd it is. I mean jesus the guy isn't a known criminal or anything, he's a dad on vacation who fucked up. But you're right lets throw him in a caribean prison for a few years.

I'll be honest.

This person hasn't been sentenced to 12 years yet so there's nothing for me to be compassionate over yet. And since this person is white, I don't think they will get 12 years either. I'll feel differently if they are sentenced to more than 6 months. A small jail term is preferable to a system where the wealthy can pay to skirt the law while the poor can't. (I don't know how expensive vacationing there is.)

Now, that sentence is a really long time for carrying such a small amount of ammunition to other country. But this is how strongly Turks and Caicos feels about the importation of ammunition. Maybe travel agencies, airlines, and especially the TSA need to get the word out about T & C? But T & C must have some reason (good or otherwise) for this law. I don't anything about their history or culture. But I do know that American imperialism has done enough damage in the Caribbean. There's no way I will say that T & C should change this law because of the actions of Americans.

This is something the NRA could be useful for. Warn gun owners about travelling to T & C and other places with similar laws. This article is mostly about getting the word out.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,256
This thread is such an odd confluence of things. Does anyone actually think it's justified to sentence someone to twelve years in prison for accidentally including ammunition in their bag? Where I live, 12 years is about what you'd get on a firearms manslaughter.
I think it's odd to make assumptions about what is justified in countries you don't live in.
 

Kusagari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,630
One less gun owner to worry about for a few years, can't find much to get upset about here.

Many people on Resetera are truly no better than those they claim to despise deep down.

No convictions beyond hating the "other side" (even though we have no idea what this guys political views actually are)
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,596
Unless you're in the habbit of completely clearing your suitcase after each trip, it would be a very easy mistake to bring forgotten items in your suitcase on your next trip. That's especially likely if he's using his suitcase for regular hunting trips. I often come across small items in suitcase pockets I either missed or completely forgot to check. It happens.

12 years is absolutely outrageous either way.
I don't think he should get 12 years but saying it's an easy mistake to lose bullets is not acceptable for someone given the permission to carry a lethal weapon. If you are going to own guns they need to be treated with the huge power they hold, not some pocket change.