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Feb 10, 2018
17,534
One game is claiming to be a realistic take on war.

The other is trying to be satirical. Everywhere you look in GTA you will find something stupid like sex jokes or other types of satire. Especially in GTA5.


Them claiming the game is "realistic" and then people who are ignorant buy it and play it will be affected. Everything affects you no matter how small it is so when a game is aiming to be realistic it better pull it off or else it shouldn't exist. Failing to tackle serious issues will cause bad things to happen.

I don't think GTA5 is really as "satire" as GTA games used to be.
GTA5 is still the most realistic deal depiction of a modern American city.
There are sex jokes, crazy meth heads, government social media + government conspiracies, and rediculous burger joints, but take a look at America now all those things are happening,
Infact American reality now is more satire then GTA5.
 

OutofMana

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,099
California
Mister Megative is a good dude. I read that thread and similar ones and was disappointed in some of those responses.
Infinity Ward's commitment to realism is really gross and using that as some sort of selling point is fucking weird, man.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
I don't think GTA5 is really as "satire" as GTA games used to be.
GTA5 is still the most realistic deal depiction of a modern American city.
There are sex jokes, crazy meth heads, government social media + government conspiracies, and rediculous burger joints, but take a look at America now all those things are happening,
Infact American reality now is more satire then GTA5.
Are you serious right now?

A game that has you driving a James bond car shooting people with it or having jetpacks and flying bikes is now supposed to be realistic?

Sure some of the things they satires do exist today but their depictions in GTA is way too cartoonish for them to be "realistic". Infact I would say GTA5 is the most satirical and unrealistic of all the GTA's released.


Realistic it is not. Comparing it to CoD (which is aiming and failing to be realistic) is stupid as hell and I advice you to think more about it before equating the two.
 

Respawn

Member
Dec 5, 2017
780
I think there is
It's known that war games are recuritment tools.

COD should stay in the future and stay silly.
There is a YouTube commentary with two dudes that have seen some of the missions. British special forces raid a sleeper house in London and are faced with different retaliations as they go room to room. One of them is someone holding a child. This may or may not be it but just wanted to let you know.

Darn looks like I quoted the wrong post. sorry about that.
 

Zombine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,231
Thank you for this write up, John. I can only imagine what you have been through. I worry deeply about my cousin who is a product of last gen and is now in Special Forces because of it. I have always seen the problem of war time atrocities being "glorified" for sales from edgelord teens who don't know what they're getting into. I also worry about these games inspiring people to commit acts of violence on civilians because it helps you detach from reality allowing you to get comfortable with the fact that people aren't humans but are instead bullet sponge NPCS.
 

LocoRoco

Banned
Feb 22, 2019
579
grave_of_the_fireflies_2-custom.jpg

dude, this movie is so good and sad that it's in my top 5 saddest movies ever
 

TheFuzz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,497
These are totally valid remarks. One should wonder what are its motivations towards playing games depicting realistic war violence. Is it meant to be entertaining?

Saving Private Ryan is realistic, but there are vets who physically couldn't watch it because of what it brought back. It's entertainment. So there is a very fine line, but I don't know what it is.
 

Arkaign

Member
Nov 25, 2017
1,991
They sent us to occupy and kill people who did no wrong.

They sent us with outdated vehicles, unsuited to the region, and without body armor. We depended on our families and charities to buy or donate protective gear.

They had us focused on nonsensical areas while the infrastructure went unprotected.

The Iraqi army surrendered, one of the only stable realms of employment for a great many good young men just wanting to support their families, like us, and they turned them away with no job, no hope, and only resentment.

They fired the general Shinseki, who tried to tell those assholes Cheney and Rumsfeld that we needed more like 600,000 personnel to provide security and stability to even give a post Saddam Iraq a slim chance of moving on without immediately deteriorating into sectarian violence.

They did not understand that the Shiite groups were all too familiar with our worthless promises after we left them twisting in the wind 20 years prior. Rise up against the Baathist Sunni, we told them, only to let them be slaughtered.

Our 'shock and awe' broke power plants, water treatment facilities, hospitals, etc, only to rebuild them far too slowly, at absurd profiteering costs.

Most of us, certainly at the state and command levels, never bothered to understand the history of the country, and how it was artificially drawn from imperial maps to be a self-destructive mess in order to be less capable of resisting outside manipulation.

The boredom. The grime. The heat. The smell of dead animals and burning vehicles. The terrible rations. The vomelette. The faulty water supplies. The men who wore no unit markings. The overriding fear and unease, like a white noise that colorlessly drones the entire time until it becomes part of you. The damage we did to them, to ourselves. Irrecoverable, shattering experiences. Faces that show up in crowds or dreams, the witnessed and the witnesses to the absurd death carnival that was sold like a fast food advertisement on the news. And we were relatively lucky, as wars and warriors go. This stupidity is as old as mankind, and usually even more grim. Individual days with 30,000, 50,000 dead. Individual battles where millions perished in tiny areas. Counties who lost so many people that it's beyond comprehension.

War games, are not realistic. We shouldn't pretend that they are, and aiming for such is questionable, certainly claiming that the experience is even remotely comparable is a sad joke.

For anyone who hasn't read Bill Mauldlin's famous 'go dig a hole' reality check, please do so.
 

Dio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,097
So war games need to stop but games like GTA5, RDR2 where you can murder innocents lots of ways, or uncharted games where you kill 100s of mercenaries and other people who probably don't deserve death, are OK?
I don't know why war games can be a grey area when a lot of the most popular games have you doing all kinds of morraly wrong things.
a bit late to this, so hopefully others replying clarified to you a bit :you're conflating violence in games, which is a discussion to be had, with the portrayal of war in games, and spefically in MW's case, to seek realism within it, to portray horrors of war, while, as it's CoD, to still portray everything as badass.
 
Mar 29, 2018
7,078
Unpopular opinion (in this board at least): I do think producing content depicting war as fun (so basically every game, almost by definition) is pretty bad. I think a world without military shooters would be an unambiguously better world.

And although I'll probably be even more alone in believing this, I personally think that, while consuming that content is not "morally wrong", it's definitely "bad for you", like smoking. And please nobody @ me with studies about violent content not causing violent behaviour because that's not what I'm talking about; I'm taling about public perception of war and voting patterns.
Not sure about "like smoking", because there are no ill health affects for you or others around you, but I would agree such media is "bad for you" on some core level because it will normalise certain aspects of reality. Not like desensitisation, but it will normalise you to the CULTURE of war - the imagery, the language - it will normalise you that in some ways this stuff is normal and will even imply there's plenty of enjoyment to be gathered from it. And this is absolutely harmful.

I reckon in like 50 years we'll be looking back at this time and being like "what the fuck were we thinking".

True of many things, I suppose.
 

Anti

Banned
Nov 22, 2017
2,972
Australia
I know what the guy is trying to say, Activision is just trying to cash in by using "real" war as a way to attract and audience to its game,horrible marketing campaign but people will be fooled, but tbh is hard to feel sorry for an american soldier...
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Not sure about "like smoking", because there are no ill health affects for you or others around you, but I would agree such media is "bad for you" on some core level because it will normalise certain aspects of reality. Not like desensitisation, but it will normalise you to the CULTURE of war - the imagery, the language - it will normalise you that in some ways this stuff is normal and will even imply there's plenty of enjoyment to be gathered from it. And this is absolutely harmful.

I reckon in like 50 years we'll be looking back at this time and being like "what the fuck were we thinking".

True of many things, I suppose.

The comparison between consuming this content and smoking was in the context of "it's not immoral, just bad for you", as opposed to actually making the content which is more morally grey. I meant exactly what you say, that it normalizes and glamourizes war.
 

MagitekDad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
574
I don't think GTA5 is really as "satire" as GTA games used to be.
GTA5 is still the most realistic deal depiction of a modern American city.
There are sex jokes, crazy meth heads, government social media + government conspiracies, and rediculous burger joints, but take a look at America now all those things are happening,
Infact American reality now is more satire then GTA5.

This is completely nonsensical and has absolutely nothing to do with what my thread was about.
 

BlkSquirtle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
948
Reading that tweet thread from mistermegative is heartwrenching. I've never really been big on war games except Battlefield but as I've gotten older I've fallen out of that stuff. Real war is something I've never had to deal with and something I never want to deal with and the lack of taking this very real thing that affects very real people seriously bothers me.

I played the No Russian mission and shot around civilians to "blend in" with the terrorist and accidentally hit a person running for their life and that fucked me up. That was the last modern day COD I played. It's nothing compared to real life but I feel like if people actually ACTUALLY put themselves in the shoes of these characters and what they were doing to other people and not just pixels on a screen that emotional reaction could work. If developers made you feel the weight of these things you're doing in a real way there could be room for the art of videogames to make you feel.

Im not a vet and I feel like I'm rambling, I just want to say thanks vets and I want videogames to handle these serious topics seriously. Like the other tweet thread said, not like an action movie but like real life and make a comment about it. Don't display this hurt and not have something to say because fetishizing this shit is just as bad.

Edit: I didn't realize he posted here too, thanks Mister Megative for speaking out on this topic. Thank you for serving, I'm sorry for everything that's happened to you there, after serving and what will happen to other people like you. I don't even know how to end this, but I want you to know that your words have resonated with somebody who isn't a vet and made me re-evaluate entertainment. I hope I don't come off like a gamer bro who just likes war because fun, I would like games to be taken seriously as art and want them to explore these topics but respectfully and with a message and not as a commercial product.
 
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Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,426
Devs should be made to listen to vets who have served on the frontlines before they even think about making war games, just to remind them that war should not be glorified.
They often have military advisors. I don't think this is something that every vet automatically disapproves off
 

The-Demon

Alt account
Banned
Jun 7, 2019
262
They often have military advisors. I don't think this is something that every vet automatically disapproves off
Yeah i think most have those resources but more specific it is about how the character should move, clear a room etc. Not really about how the story should play out etc. Most Call of Duty games are just Michael bay movies in video game form.
 

PeskyToaster

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,316
There's definitely a line between realism and fun and it seems that line has been crossed. War games are fine, pretty much all I play, but like killing babies shouldn't be part of the game. I don't care if they go all out with animations, sound, graphics, and all that but I wouldn't sell it as a realistic war experience ever because it never is and you don't want it to be.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
You could say the same for all kinds of entertainment based on war.
That's true of course, but gaming is for the most part stuck in the Rambo era, games are still kind of trying to make war seem cool and spectacular with the headshots, slowmotion deaths, big mounted canons and big explosions.
Except for This War of Mine as I mentioned which is really going 100% for the darkness of it all.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,424
The depiction of the sensitive content the new CoD seems to be going for can work if done with purpose beyond sensationalist shock value and "edgy" set pieces, but I'm not sure this game is up to the task. I'm getting the vibe it wants to limit self-reflection of the player to "woah, that's fucked up," instead of deeper commentary on issues like American foreign policy, war crimes, jingoism, mental health/PTSD, or the romanticization of war. Spec Ops: The Line did a pretty good job at addressing these issues, and I think it avoided criticism like this due to the quality of its writing and its surrealist approach. I hope I'm proven wrong and the game can provide a surprisingly mature, introspective take on the genre the franchise has both thrived in and promoted throughout its lifespan, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
 

Deleted member 29237

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
803
I understand the points made here, particularly in light of the history of the franchise. Call of Duty is known for its fun and arcadey gunplay and I'm not convinced it's a good fit for the tone they seem to be going for.

That said, I'm reluctant to judge something without having seen the finished product. The chances of them pulling off a genuinely successful representation of the horrors or war seems frankly unlikely, especially given how many people fetishize the military due in no small part to this very franchise, but after how good Infinite Warfare's campaign was I think it's only fair to wait until the final version is ready.
 

RLCC14

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,447
The target audience won't give a fuck about this and gaming journalists won't dare go against Activision in calling these these out on their games.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
What about war movies? What about other topics, such as slavery? Catastrophe films? Crime movies? It's ridiculous to imply that a media creator is restricted to create and show, what only people who have been close to such experience want, and let them dictate it.

I think this new cod game, will actually remind people that war is shit, and should not be glorified.
I would believe them more if they weren't doing it in a franchise that also has modes like "Deathmatch", "Domination", and "Kill Confirmed"
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
I think what could possibly work is if the protagonist actually dies, no retry from the last autosave, you won't ever get to replay as him/her after death, and if shooting a civilian/innocent person would have real game consequences, like game over and savefile is erased, so that gamers would actually be scared and try their hardest to avoid anything of that kind.

Giving gamers a choice to do something messed up and then have a cutscene when the character seemingly feel bad about the thing isn't going to do any good if the game just continues after skipping the cutscene.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
I always found military themed shooters in modern and historical settings kind of revolting. The closest I can go is stuff like Titanfall that's removed from reality by way of a fantastical setting. Even Spec Ops The Line made me really uncomfortable to keep playing, and that was at the very beginning before it was supposed to be uncomfortable.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,090
As a game, I trust Infinity Ward to keep delivering the goods in terms of controls and level design, but I'm actually worried about it constantly referencing "No Russian" as an ideal thing to look back on and recapture. I'm honestly surprised other people look back on it as such.

"No Russian" itself was an attempt to recapture the shock of the Nuke from COD4, and even at the time it didn't come off as that interesting. COD4 at least had some moments where you could read between the lines a little bit and see some somewhat thought-provoking messages and imagery about war. But everything after that seemed to just try to repeat the shock value, especially MW2. And now the PR is making it sound like they're going even harder in that direction. Using the word "realism" in describing it just shows they've forgotten the approach they took with the older games.
 
Oct 27, 2017
521
Once upon a time, the CoD series was about the people fighting the war, admire their bravery and selflessness.

Now it is a series where you shoot a baby, feel bad for 4 seconds before landing a headshot on the enemy, and that's supposedly to be a realistic take on war.

I truly wish Call of duty had stayed in WW2, and that the last one to come out was CoD World At War. With nazis being the enemies in that game that are being shot 'cause of actual war, instead of civilians, things didn't feel so uncomfortable like the No Russian mission. I was doing a re-play of MW2 and that mission is still hard to get through considering all the shootings etc that have happened in recent years.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,249
I hear the guys concerns, but no subject should never not be made. Whether that be a movie, book, or videogame.

This is the fault of bad parenting.
 

fick

Alt-Account
Banned
Nov 24, 2018
2,261
Counterpoint: I'm an infantry vet and I can't wait for it. And I'm sure it'll be popular in the barracks.

That's not to completely dismiss these guys' views, but I have a feeling a lot of people are going to say, "well see veterans hate it too!"
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
Can't wait for some of you to step into the digitized shoes of american and/or british saviours getting your "hands dirty" by "accidentally" (I can already see people trying to circumvent algorithm for system meant to determine whether execution was accidental or deliberate by spraying and praying) killing civilians followed by T-bagging them (because fuck "comporting" because inherent disconnect, ludo narrative dissonance) and get your rocks off.

... And then switch to another game when all is said and done and go on your merry way to the next digitized murder and mayhem in the name of heroism or "owning" others online.

Edit:

I really hope if America ever oversteps its bounds in international stage and is put back in its place by a coalition of opposing forces, that a game follows in a decade or so showing Americans in the same predicament at the hands of heroic external forces. Let see how you would like them apples.
 
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