wow its almost like every decent JJ movie has had someone laying the groundwork for him, interesting
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The Rise of Skywalker Review Thread: The Sheev Saga Comes to a Close [No Spoilers] (Rottenwatch: 55%; 10% below AOTC) [SEE STAFF POST]
- Thread starter Bor Gullet
- Start date
wow its almost like every decent JJ movie has had someone laying the groundwork for him, interesting
No no, we're suppose to be mad at Kathleen Kennedy for ruining Star Wars even though she gave them The Mandalorian, and saved Rougue One of Edwards wasting millions.
I mean then that's on J.J., because he only made Snoke and damn Kylo Ren. So Snoke is Palpatine by the end if he stayed alive? He can develop Kylo even more than from TLJ? I didn't write this screenplay, nor is it my job.
I have wrote multiple romantic comedies, but pretty sure that any of these can work as a Star Wars show on Disney+.
Lucasfilm are the one responsible for the mess imo. They've basically accepted the movies that we've watched so it's on them to take responsibility for it. They accepted all those scripts, screenplays, casting choices and big decisions but somehow we are still blaming specific people for this? You can let Johnson and Abrams do their own creative thing but still put up limits in place on what you can and cannot do. Considering how all the 3 movies feel different it seems that the guidance wasn't up to par.
Oh I agree JJ set up a lame copy of the original universe. I was just saying that while JJ seemed happy to make a carbon copy of the OT, it felt to me that Rian painted himself into a corner a bit. He might have a clever way out.
Fans want wish fulfillment for the old characters
But overall they want new shit.
Just got back from watching it..... Hmmmm lot to process and need to watch it again. I liked it but I think it's the weakest of the 3 main sequel films.
There's still plenty to like but it's not as good as it should have been either. The action, visuals, and acting are all solid but the story is pretty disjointed and rushed (especially the first act) which definitely hurts the movie.
If JJ tried to retcon TLJ (which I really like for shaking things up and going in a new direction) he didn't really try that hard, because it all just felt half assed and comes at the cost of making this movie really great. JJ would have been better off running with the new ideas, building off and improving those ideas instead.
There's still plenty to like but it's not as good as it should have been either. The action, visuals, and acting are all solid but the story is pretty disjointed and rushed (especially the first act) which definitely hurts the movie.
If JJ tried to retcon TLJ (which I really like for shaking things up and going in a new direction) he didn't really try that hard, because it all just felt half assed and comes at the cost of making this movie really great. JJ would have been better off running with the new ideas, building off and improving those ideas instead.
Right, it's a strange decision. For the OT Lucas had the overall story in mind, even if they changed directors/writers.
Nah. THis is easily the worst entry in the entire series. Although it does have my favorite thing in it ever in a movie but for unintentional reasons.
As someone who's been in the Pokemon fandom, this feels like the case with anyone saying pokemon only ever needed the original 151 and kanto and should always stick to the 8 gyms formula as well.
Watch Harry Potter fall into the exact same trap, espicially with how the Fantastic Beasts series turns out. You'll get a new set of kids going through the years of hogwarts, yet all their adventures seem to be strikingly similar to what Harry, Ron and Hermione did, and then Voldemort comes back for the final film somehow.
I love how the revisionist history of the prequels not being irredeemable trash is in full swing.
It's amazing that we are seeing the blame shift in real time.
TLJ had a fair amount of problems but they could have gone in so many directions instead of what they did.
Star Wars fans want the same movie served to them again and again, but at the same time each movie has to be new and revolutionary and not re-tread old ground.
Star Wars fans want each movie to shove in all their favorite characters, locations and technology from previous films while also featuring a completely new cast & aesthetic unlike anything they've seen before.
Star Wars fans want to explore every aspect of the mythos down to the finest detail, but also don't want anything to be really explained because they like the magic and mystery better.
Star Wars fans want the franchise to be dark, gritty and mature to appeal to them as adults, while also being kid-friendly enough that it can properly indoctrinate their own children.
TL;DR: The Star Wars fandom has become the Zelda fandom.
Star Wars fans want each movie to shove in all their favorite characters, locations and technology from previous films while also featuring a completely new cast & aesthetic unlike anything they've seen before.
Star Wars fans want to explore every aspect of the mythos down to the finest detail, but also don't want anything to be really explained because they like the magic and mystery better.
Star Wars fans want the franchise to be dark, gritty and mature to appeal to them as adults, while also being kid-friendly enough that it can properly indoctrinate their own children.
TL;DR: The Star Wars fandom has become the Zelda fandom.
It also admits that the folks making the claim that there were no "major plot threads left" have dollar store imaginations.
Just got back. All I can really say is... eh????
I don't know how anyone who hates TLJ's themes would love Kotor II, given that's it's far, FAR more cynical and mean-spirited towards the property in its deconstruction than TLJ. Kotor II's just had time to sit and stew with people.
Idk why people are surprised TLJ is getting flack.
RotS, similarly, had big pacing problems, because AotC didn't set up things well. RotS had to cram two movies worth of world building in a single film, making Anakin's fall seem completely unearned because of how fast it happened.
RoS apparently tried to do the same thing with content, because Abrams didn't have a lot to work with from TLJ(insert "it's poetry" meme). He tries to build up a galactic threat and destroy it, while having to juggle way too many characters (definitely his fault for introducing more characters tho, like wtf?).
It's also super weird that when people bring up killing the primary antagonist in the 2nd act of 2nd film as a pretty dumb "subversion", the only defense TLJ fans have is "Snoke was a nothing character anyway!"
Like, ok, sure. But offer a viable alternative for a primary antagonistic force going into the final film, if you're going to discard what was there.
For example, without compromising the themes Rian Johnson presented (and then backed down from), he could have had Rey ACTUALLY join with Kylo, or renounce the same "light vs dark" theme we've seen for 8+ movies in a row. This would set up the final film to be Old World (light & dark/rebel & order) vs New World (grey/anything with nuance).
Alternatively, he could have just built Kylo into an actually threat and not continue his status as a jobber that loses literally every single fight.
Alternatively alternatively, he could have... like, just not killed Snoke? Takes away a great moment from TLJ, but at least it ensures a measure of stability going into the conclusion.
And that's the main problem with these movies, that I will continue to harp on. No vision. JJ set up mystery boxes without really telling Rian Johnson what the plan was. Rian Johnson said, fuck all that, my movie is gonna have a a conclusive ending, disregarding it's 2 of 3.
I hope Disney learns from this whole experience. Have more oversight and let each movie breathe (like at least 3 years between them, preferably more).
RotS, similarly, had big pacing problems, because AotC didn't set up things well. RotS had to cram two movies worth of world building in a single film, making Anakin's fall seem completely unearned because of how fast it happened.
RoS apparently tried to do the same thing with content, because Abrams didn't have a lot to work with from TLJ(insert "it's poetry" meme). He tries to build up a galactic threat and destroy it, while having to juggle way too many characters (definitely his fault for introducing more characters tho, like wtf?).
It's also super weird that when people bring up killing the primary antagonist in the 2nd act of 2nd film as a pretty dumb "subversion", the only defense TLJ fans have is "Snoke was a nothing character anyway!"
Like, ok, sure. But offer a viable alternative for a primary antagonistic force going into the final film, if you're going to discard what was there.
For example, without compromising the themes Rian Johnson presented (and then backed down from), he could have had Rey ACTUALLY join with Kylo, or renounce the same "light vs dark" theme we've seen for 8+ movies in a row. This would set up the final film to be Old World (light & dark/rebel & order) vs New World (grey/anything with nuance).
Alternatively, he could have just built Kylo into an actually threat and not continue his status as a jobber that loses literally every single fight.
Alternatively alternatively, he could have... like, just not killed Snoke? Takes away a great moment from TLJ, but at least it ensures a measure of stability going into the conclusion.
And that's the main problem with these movies, that I will continue to harp on. No vision. JJ set up mystery boxes without really telling Rian Johnson what the plan was. Rian Johnson said, fuck all that, my movie is gonna have a a conclusive ending, disregarding it's 2 of 3.
I hope Disney learns from this whole experience. Have more oversight and let each movie breathe (like at least 3 years between them, preferably more).
Saw it a few hours ago, and...
I was never going to like this, since my favorite Star Wars media is that which muddles the more formalist traits of the franchise, but I wasn't expecting to hate it this much.
Without getting into specifics, the final act has to be the most cynical fanwank I've seen in a while. It feels like the worst Star Wars tropes were blended together to make this film, without any care in the world for the character work established even in TFA, let alone TLJ.
I'm incredibly disappointed, and I don't think I'll be interested in future SW movies if this is going to be the path forward. This film broke me as a fan.
I was never going to like this, since my favorite Star Wars media is that which muddles the more formalist traits of the franchise, but I wasn't expecting to hate it this much.
Without getting into specifics, the final act has to be the most cynical fanwank I've seen in a while. It feels like the worst Star Wars tropes were blended together to make this film, without any care in the world for the character work established even in TFA, let alone TLJ.
I'm incredibly disappointed, and I don't think I'll be interested in future SW movies if this is going to be the path forward. This film broke me as a fan.
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Another reminder to read the staff post.
Don't post spoilers and don't discuss spoilers, even behind tags, there is another thread for that.
Don't post spoilers and don't discuss spoilers, even behind tags, there is another thread for that.
We're calling out people give RJ shit because this shit is all on Abrahms. He could've taken the story anywhere else but where he did. I know development was rushed given they had to shitcan Trevorrow in the middle of pre-production, but someone could've and should've sat him down and said 'This shit stinks, rework it', and at the VERY LEAST somewhat re-edited the script. It likely still would've been messy given the time constraints, but it probably would've been better.
I haven't seen IX yet but I thought Snoke dying in VIII was cool because to me Kylo is the main show. I thought him being the unstable leader of the First Order was a cool set up for the next one. I'm seeing IX tomorrow so I guess I'll see how Palpatine ends up being used...
Oh yea, I'm not stanning JJ, lol. I'm saying a lot of the breakneck pacing issues are (imo) at TLJ's feet.
Expecting it not to get blame for "some" of RoS' pacing flaws is naive. But again, I need to see it for myself to see how badly JJ botched it, not just reading about it.
Had no plans on seeing this, but I may have to out of morbid curiosity, ugh.
See, I think that's by far the single most boring direction to take Episode 9. It's like, let's watch Kylo certainly lose for a third and final time, when the threat is so low, baby Yoda could hop over it.
I feel the only way to make Kylo the primary antagonist in 9 and also have him still lose every single fight, is to make the final movie ALL about Ben's redemption. It would be a much more intimate film about the character's psyche and Ben/Kylo turmoil. The question wouldn't be "will the good guys beat the baddies?!" because anyone with a brain would see that was guaranteed. The question would be "how does this manic/obsessive delinquent rediscover the path to righteousness?"
But TLJ doesn't allow room for this because in an almost comicsl attempt to one-up JJ Abrams, Rian Johnson says, "oh yea, you liked it when Kylo wiped out the Rebels down to a single fleet?? What if they were wiped to a single room!?"
This immediately reframes the story, once again, as the underdog do-gooders vs the overwhelming baddies! It would have actually been "subversive" if Johnson was like, "nah the Rebels actually still have as much/more fire power than the First Order. This isn't a story about good vs. evil. This is a story about saving Ben."
But we clearly didn't get any of that.
Just came back from the theater. I liked it, my wife(who is a very casual fan) absolutely loved it. I have the same criticisms as a lot of the critics(bad pacing, too much fan service), but I don't think they're as much of a deal breaker as a lot of critics are making it out to be.
Ironically enough, I think I like TLJ more after watching this(I didn't like TLJ at all).
My ranking would probably go like this:
ESB
TFA
ANH
ROTS
ROTJ
TROS
TPM
TLJ
RO
AOTC
Solo
Ironically enough, I think I like TLJ more after watching this(I didn't like TLJ at all).
My ranking would probably go like this:
ESB
TFA
ANH
ROTS
ROTJ
TROS
TPM
TLJ
RO
AOTC
Solo
i really don't think it is 're-visionism'. pre-Disney merger it was assumed episodes 1-3 were the last gasp of star wars we'd ever see (per "the saga") so you had a very simple dichotomy there: OT vs PT. you could scream and throw beer cans at the monitor and then make your peace with it
now there's another tier of shitiness to factor in and maybe, just maybe, in spite of jar jar, midichlorians, ect that wasn't particularly the worst direction for star wars after all
I was bored so took a dive into the dark side of Star Wars social media. I love how the narrative has changed for the usual suspects on YouTube and Twitter.
When The Last Jedi was released, the narrative was the media and critics were paid SJW shills and that the Audience score was the 'true' score. Now the narrative is Disney is paying off Rotten Tomatoes to give out good audience scores. I kid you not haha. They've spent nearly two years groaning on and on about how bad Rise of Skywalker was shaping up to be because of Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy's 'failure'. I'm willing to bet these people are legitimately upset that the critics are mixed on the film as they can no longer use the typical talking points to push their anti-SJW narrative, so they are now scrambling for a new angle. The high audience score will have to do I guess :).
When The Last Jedi was released, the narrative was the media and critics were paid SJW shills and that the Audience score was the 'true' score. Now the narrative is Disney is paying off Rotten Tomatoes to give out good audience scores. I kid you not haha. They've spent nearly two years groaning on and on about how bad Rise of Skywalker was shaping up to be because of Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy's 'failure'. I'm willing to bet these people are legitimately upset that the critics are mixed on the film as they can no longer use the typical talking points to push their anti-SJW narrative, so they are now scrambling for a new angle. The high audience score will have to do I guess :).
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I'm really surprised they aren't just going with the easy "Disney listened to us and made KK make the movie for the fans" or w/e.
You just can't win with Star Wars fans, but honestly all this vitriol and toxicity started with the prequels and is now ending with Disney being unable to come up with a basic plan for a trilogy. I just found it hella ironic how Disney was eager to ignore the prequels in stuff like BTS reels, and talking about it's relation to the ST only to somehow create a trilogy that's only marginally better but stil trite in it's attempts at barely bringing anything new to the table. Not to say that the prequels are good but the creativity behind it, and the worldbuilding just couldn't be matched by the ST which was so desperate to play it safe. Hell, I'd even call TLJ safe as hell, esp after Rey rejected Kylo.
It isn't revisionist history
The kids that grew up with those movies and enjoyed them grew up and started having legitimate discussions of them.
Also the amount of games, toys, etc in that era over the years helped the movies become "worth it" despite not having great quality.
Then Clone Wars patched it even further.
I always felt A New Hope was "hey, this is new and exciting, it reminds me of things from the past, but I never seen anything quite like it before".
Every single film after it was "oh hey, remember that thing you've seen in a Star Wars movie and liked? here's more of it", to a larger and larger degree.
Star Wars was always like this, I really wish it wasn't, but A New Hope (a name that I will forever hate, Star Wars is just way better) is the only film in that franchise that was written like a normal film, without taking into account toys you're gonna sell or trying to stay consistent with cash-in books written by pretty shitty writers.
This guy is more badass than any of the Knight of Ren.
FN-2199 probably one of the most memorable antagonist in this trilogy.
The last part of my argument is what's most relevant. The guy was suggesting that despite the PT not succeeding on its ideas, that it should still get credit for being interesting. I was trying to say that an idea being interesting is dependent on how well-executed it is, as that absolutely matters. For instance, there's a huge difference between a political concept as trade blockade being boring and meaningless in TPM, vs. if a different writer had made that same political concept compelling in another story.
The last point is what I don't get at all. Just because the ST has its share of shit, doesn't mean that the PT is suddenly better. The acting, dialogue, plot are still freaking atrocious in the PT.
You tend to appreciate what you already have when the new stuff is terrible.
Thankfully there's no doubt now that RoS is not only the worst film in the franchise but also the most dissapointing. TPM is actually a coherent movie compared to that mess.
Yup. Nobody knows what they actually want anymore. I have a couple of Star Wars pitches in my back pocket and I'm sure if I pitched them like two people would be like "THAT'S AWESOME" and then three hundred people would be like "BUT WHERE IS MY CONNECTION TO THE OT?!?!?!?!!?"
Saw it earlier, what a disappointment. I'm not a huge Star Wars guy, but I do feel like the prequels shit on the OT, and now these 3 movies flushed the toilet. And hey, I'll be willing to say maybe there was no way they could meet expectations, but damn I think they could have done better than they did.
Well get ready because the same thing is gonna happen with the ST. Ten years from now kids of today are going to be writing threads saying ROS is the best star wars movie of the original 9. I already see it talking to some of my kids friends.
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It'll happen, but the world is not as monocultural as it was for the OT or even the prequels.
Witness: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-struggling-to-win-over-the-marvel-generation
Doom 3 proved it was awesome. Every inch of it. "Critics agree". Not that I give a shit whether or not they agree with me, I'll pull that card in this case considering how damn popular hiding behind critical consensus is these days.
Just using it as a shield. Or you can check out the thread where I've made numerous posts detailing why it's a masterpiece, with videos showing the amazing atmosphere, pitch perfect sound design, fun gameplay, action horror tension, etc, or you could just say "it sucks".
"Monster closets" and whatever predictable, lazy, and dishonest criticisms people have against it. Cuz the original DOOMs are masterpieces even with some near broken shit in them, loaded with monster closets of their own. Gotta love the double standards. Doom 3 sucks cuz reasons, but mysteriously the other Doom games are perfect, even though Doom 3 is generally just doing the same, with other elements, and some other differences.
And this again comes back to what I'm talking about. Just a "it sucks". It's really annoying and not conducive to any kind of discussion. Someone tell me something they like, only for me to be like "it sucks didn't you know?". Good times.
Again Doom 3 isn't the topic here. Go to the Doom thread.
not so much the PT is instantaneously "redeemed" just that in a relative sense it wasn't so bad. but YMMV obvs some will stand by it being the worst thing ever and the ST in spite of everything was steps ahead. i and others are on the opposite end of that spectrum but as the saying goes opinions are like A-holes we all got em
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So you're saying there's a future where there might not be 10 star wars threads a day? Sounds kind of nice :)
It's actually cool to see this one daughter of a friend who is all in on Rey. And the one thing that this movie definitely has is Rey kicking ass... and she absolutely loves it.
Like what does this even mean? I honestly don't know any more.
It's not that "it's not that good", "it's disappointing", "it could have been better", or "the originals are much better", but "irredeemable trash".
Blows my fucking mind. Bash culture is all the craze.