The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)

[Manu]

Ok but surely you agree that it is reasonable to criticize the employer for that? Just saying it's a shitty employer and that we should throw our hands in the air and give up is a bit... boring at the very least.

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Of course we can criticize them, I'm 100% on the opinion that ArenaNet succumbed to GG pressure and the firings were unjustified, setting up a bad precedent.

But I still think her actions were reprehensible, and I don't think it's wrong to discuss that aspect of the issue. Maybe not make it the focus, but it's still important.

 

[Zornack]

Okay so I see we're back to your thing where you pretend Price was offered a chance to keep her job and that there's nothing ArenaNet could do to protect her from abuse. Carry on then.

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But aren't you assuming that she wasn't offered a chance to keep her job? We don't know what was said between her and her employer before she was fired.

 

[Deleted member 888]

Okay so I see we're back to your thing where you pretend Price was offered a chance to keep her job and that there's nothing ArenaNet could do to protect her from abuse. Carry on then.

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You're asking me what recourse is, and given years and years of evidence online for how people keep jobs after social media kerfuffles, apologies tend to be the number 1 way to survive. That's just the reality of how things go. As for commenting on Jessica after being let go, her words and thoughts are in the public realm. There doesn't seem to be any remarks about going after Deroir and thinking it might not have been justified. So, what conclusion can one draw? If she doesn't think she did anything wrong targetting him and hanging him out to dry, and her employer does, there's your disconnect and brick wall in terms of getting to recourse.

ANet want to apologize and say it's unacceptable to talk to a non-provoking customer in this way, the staff in question potentially don't feel that way.

I didn't say there is nothing ANet can do online [I stated they should be banning GW2 accounts if they are able], I took the hypothetical you gave me about a salesman and suggested why anonymous online harassment isn't as easy to fight as situations where people are identifiable.

 

[Deleted member 4021]

But aren't you assuming that she wasn't offered a chance to keep her job? We don't know what was said between her and her employer before she was fired.

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Price said her firing was just the CEO yelling at her, and if they had offered a chance to keep her job and she rejected it(or Fries), I'm pretty sure they would have said that as it would make them look like much less of a garbage company than they currently do.

 

[Deleted member 5596]

But aren't you assuming that she wasn't offered a chance to keep her job? We don't know what was said between her and her employer before she was fired.

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She said she didn't.

ArenaNet didn't say she was offered a chance to apologize.

There's also this:

https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/12/17565218/arenanet-guild-wars-firing-games-social-media-harassment

But they say penalties and consequences for violating those guidelines had not been discussed with employees, and they fear the precedent set now is a one-strike termination.

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[TyrantGuardian]

Of course we can criticize them, I'm 100% on the opinion that ArenaNet succumbed to GG pressure and the firings were unjustified, setting up a bad precedent.

But I still think her actions were reprehensible, and I don't think it's wrong to discuss that aspect of the issue. Maybe not make it the focus, but it's still important.

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That's perfectly fair. Please read my edited post for my take on whether or not this should be the focus, if you have the time. I don't mind discussing her actions and how ArenaNet reacted but there is a much larger thing going on here and it's obvious that there are many posters (especially on other gaming discussion channels, obviously) who are doing everything in their power to avoid that part of the debate because the status quo suits them perfectly. They are willing to jump through any and all hoops to avoid the murder-threatening elephant in the room because they, frankly, have no sense of empathy for people who are not like them.

you should never "trust" your employer. If you don't like your employer's practices, you are free to find another job.

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You are also free to publicly shame the shit out of them. These companies need to be dragged through the mud for treating workers like this and the games industry is in dire need of unions, not to mention that the US needs huge reforms in terms of policy to shift the power balance from exploitative employers more workers' rights.

Yeah but she also said someone engaging in polite debate was an asshat, so maybe they were nicer than she perceived

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Is this sarcasm? I genuinely need to know.

 

[Deleted member 36767]

I'm sorry, but I would also argue it's extremely difficult to trust your employer when they suddenly fire two employees, particularly one who was a veteran of the company and beloved. It's hard to take O'Brien's comments at face value as a result. Again, Fries' comments were nowhere near as severe as Price's and yet he got the same punishment. That doesn't seem right.

And I'm pretty tired of your condescending rhetoric towards me, so I'm done responding to you. If you chalk that up as a "win" or something, then good for you.

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you should never "trust" your employer. If you don't like your employer's practices, you are free to find another job.

 

[oni-link]

Price said her firing was just the CEO yelling at her, and if they had offered a chance to keep her job and she rejected it(or Fries), I'm pretty sure they would have said that as it would make them look like much less of a garbage company than they currently do.

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Yeah but she also said someone engaging in polite debate was an asshat, so maybe they were nicer than she perceived

 

[Vela]

you should never "trust" your employer. If you don't like your employer's practices, you are free to find another job.

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oh my sweet summer child..

 

[Maneil99]

How do I post images of tweets easily?

There are a bunch of tweets from Arenanet defending staff being mocked on International Womens Day.

 

[Deleted member 5596]

How do I post images of tweets easily?

There are a bunch of tweets from Arenanet defending staff being mocked on International Womens Day.

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Use the media option (the film like icon)

Just embed the whole tweet, posting only the image is a mess.

 

[Deleted member 888]

How do I post images of tweets easily?

There are a bunch of tweets from Arenanet defending staff being mocked on International Womens Day.

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I assume it's those you wanted? As above use the Media icon.

 

[Kin5290]

Yeah but she also said someone engaging in polite debate was an asshat, so maybe they were nicer than she perceived

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Deroir wasn't someone "engaging in polite debate". He was somebody who expected Price to address his thoughts about [basic thing that would have been considered in narrative design already] completely unsolicited and out of the blue and got pissy when she dismissed it as not being a novel suggestion.

Also, I'm not saying the guy is alt-Right, but "Debate me" is a classic alt-right tactic that has little usefulness. Why should a professional be forced to defend the creative decisions she made to any random person with a Twitter account and a Twitch channel?

 

[Maneil99]

Thanks, for some reason the media icon was making me do a captcha and would load a whole new page.

I just see the history of this company, its incredibly diverse staff that is known for interacting with the community, previous attempts at mobbing or trolling being dealt with by the companys PR unlike most developers aswell as the response to the Polygon article and find it hard to see that GG made this happen.

 

[Deleted member 36767]

Deroir wasn't someone "engaging in polite debate". He was somebody who expected Price to address his thoughts about [basic thing that would have been considered in narrative design already] completely unsolicited and out of the blue and got pissy when she dismissed it as not being a novel suggestion.

Also, I'm not saying the guy is alt-Right, but "Debate me" is a classic alt-right tactic that has little usefulness. Why should a professional be forced to defend the creative decisions she made to any random person with a Twitter account and a Twitch channel?

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She's the one who posted his comments. Was she forced to do that? Was she forced to engage him? Was she forced to debate him? No no no. Come on now. She didn't have to defend herself at all. Amazing.

 

[Zornack]

Deroir wasn't someone "engaging in polite debate". He was somebody who expected Price to address his thoughts about [basic thing that would have been considered in narrative design already] completely unsolicited and out of the blue and got pissy when she dismissed it as not being a novel suggestion.

Also, I'm not saying the guy is alt-Right, but "Debate me" is a classic alt-right tactic that has little usefulness. Why should a professional be forced to defend the creative decisions she made to any random person with a Twitter account and a Twitch channel?

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He didn't get pissy when she dismissed it, he got pissy when she said this:
like, the next rando asshat who attempts to explain the concept of branching dialogue to me--as if, you know, having worked in game narrative for a fucking DECADE, I have never heard of it--is getting instablocked. PSA.

She went after him before he said anything more than his first four tweets.

Also, how was he expecting her to address his thoughts? How is a reply to a public tweet thread considered unsolicited and out of the blue ?

 

[Xenon]

Deroir wasn't someone "engaging in polite debate". He was somebody who expected Price to address his thoughts about [basic thing that would have been considered in narrative design already] completely unsolicited and out of the blue and got pissy when she dismissed it as not being a novel suggestion.

Also, I'm not saying the guy is alt-Right, but "Debate me" is a classic alt-right tactic that has little usefulness. Why should a professional be forced to defend the creative decisions she made to any random person with a Twitter account and a Twitch channel?

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Huh? So by this logic any time a man engages a women in a debate it can be construed as an alt right tactic. That is just silly.

Edit Especially considering the conversation in question was apolitical.

 

[Kinthey]

Deroir wasn't someone "engaging in polite debate". He was somebody who expected Price to address his thoughts about [basic thing that would have been considered in narrative design already] completely unsolicited and out of the blue and got pissy when she dismissed it as not being a novel suggestion.

Also, I'm not saying the guy is alt-Right, but "Debate me" is a classic alt-right tactic that has little usefulness. Why should a professional be forced to defend the creative decisions she made to any random person with a Twitter account and a Twitch channel?

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I find it hard to call his reaction pissy, especially since he apologized and backed out. Also keep in mind that happened after she publicly shamed him on her twitter and called him a rando asshat.

And no one was forced to defend anything. She could have easily ignored his tweets

 

[Ralemont]

Deroir wasn't someone "engaging in polite debate". He was somebody who expected Price to address his thoughts about [basic thing that would have been considered in narrative design already] completely unsolicited and out of the blue and got pissy when she dismissed it as not being a novel suggestion.

Also, I'm not saying the guy is alt-Right, but "Debate me" is a classic alt-right tactic that has little usefulness. Why should a professional be forced to defend the creative decisions she made to any random person with a Twitter account and a Twitch channel?

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1. He got (a little) pissy when she called him a rando asshat. He hadn't responded until she said that. And his response was still far more professional than anything she said.

2. She isn't forced to defend anything. She isn't forced to acknowledge the guy at all. She could have literally done anything but insult him and she'd still have a job. She did the one thing that would force an employer to take action.

3. Additionally, there's no such thing as "completely unsolicited" or "out of the blue" when you post something on Twitter, especially when you're continuing the topic of a recently finished Ask Me Anything on Reddit.

4. The guy isn't actually random, though she seems to think he was. He was an Anet partner who regularly streams Guild Wars 2 and had professed to being a big fan of hers before and loving her responses in the AMA. Again, it's fine if she doesn't know that nor should she be expected to, but it does make the optics of her response even worse.

 

[oni-link]

Deroir wasn't someone "engaging in polite debate". He was somebody who expected Price to address his thoughts about [basic thing that would have been considered in narrative design already] completely unsolicited and out of the blue and got pissy when she dismissed it as not being a novel suggestion.

Also, I'm not saying the guy is alt-Right, but "Debate me" is a classic alt-right tactic that has little usefulness. Why should a professional be forced to defend the creative decisions she made to any random person with a Twitter account and a Twitch channel?

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How on earth did you come to the conclusion he got pissy? He immediately backed down, and he was a noted fan of her work and Twitter. This narrative that he tried to "tell her how to do her job" because he has some kind of superiority complex or just hates women is utter nonsense

Also, you have added another level of spin by saying she dismissed it. She didn't dismiss it, she was an asshole, and tried to humiliate him in front of her followers by making an example of him

He wasn't asking her to defend her creative decisions, how on earth did you get that from him disagreeing slightly with her and wanting her feedback on that?

If this was an English essay for 12 year olds you'd get an F with this inane reading of the situation

Edit: Ah half a dozen people have also called you on on your post

 

[Deleted member 888]

Deroir wasn't someone "engaging in polite debate". He was somebody who expected Price to address his thoughts about [basic thing that would have been considered in narrative design already] completely unsolicited and out of the blue and got pissy when she dismissed it as not being a novel suggestion.

Also, I'm not saying the guy is alt-Right, but "Debate me" is a classic alt-right tactic that has little usefulness. Why should a professional be forced to defend the creative decisions she made to any random person with a Twitter account and a Twitch channel?

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"I'm not saying he is... but I'll toss in alt-right anyway"... "Then I'll end with implying she was forced to defend herself against Deroir".

Cmon. The guys social media profile has been examined with a fine tooth comb now, and he has a decent number or archived videos of him talking and being who he is on camera, including this now awkward clip praising her AMA's from... the day before.

https://clips.twitch.tv/CrypticMistyStingrayDxCat

Imagine someone that thought she was the "God of AMA's with great answers" attempting to see if she'd talk to him in an AMA capacity.

The monster some people keep trying to find in this guy is simply not there.

 

[Kin5290]

He didn't get pissy when she dismissed it, he got pissy when she said this:
like, the next rando asshat who attempts to explain the concept of branching dialogue to me--as if, you know, having worked in game narrative for a fucking DECADE, I have never heard of it--is getting instablocked. PSA.

She went after him before he said anything more than his first four tweets.

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Wrong. That response came after she brushed him off responding to his initial tweet, basically saying "thanks for telling me what we do already". He continues to engage her in a trolly manner, going "Why'd you get so mad!"

The tweet about "rando asshats" explaining things to her comes later.

 

[Zornack]

Wrong. That response came after she brushed him off responding to his initial tweet, basically saying "thanks for telling me what we do already". He continues to engage her in a trolly manner, going "Why'd you get so mad!"

The tweet about "rando asshats" explaining things to her comes later.

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No, check the time stamps. Rando asshats comes before any response from Deroir.

10:05
https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1014555719352213504

10:28
https://twitter.com/DeroirGaming/status/1014561660340703232

10:41
https://twitter.com/DeroirGaming/status/1014564971416518656

 

[GalvoAg]

Wrong. That response came after she brushed him off responding to his initial tweet, basically saying "thanks for telling me what we do already". He continues to engage her in a trolly manner, going "Why'd you get so mad!"

The tweet about "rando asshats" explaining things to her comes later.

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Wrong

 

[Luckydog]

Except as far as I can tell Fries didn't say that, and he got fired too, so....

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first let me say I dont think Fries should have been fired. With that said, he is re-inforcing Price's response to the community. Doubling down on her shitting on a customer and partner. Its an overreaction, but is directly tied to what she said.

 

[Vela]

More big game companies whose statements would make a big impact should be like "we condemn the ArenaNet's firings, treat our employees better, and won't empower the type of gamers who think they own this industry".

 

[Kin5290]

How on earth did you come to the conclusion he got pissy? He immediately backed down, and he was a noted fan of her work and Twitter. This narrative that he tried to "tell her how to do her job" because he has some kind of superiority complex or just hates women is utter nonsense

Also, you have added another level of spin by saying she dismissed it. She didn't dismiss it, she was an asshole, and tried to humiliate him in front of her followers by making an example of him

He wasn't asking her to defend her creative decisions, how on earth did you get that from him disagreeing slightly with her and wanting her feedback on that?

If this was an English essay for 12 year olds you'd get an F with this inane reading of the situation

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Man, you people will just leap to give dudes on YouTube or Twitch the benefit of the doubt for just displaying "polite" passive aggressiveness.

 

[Luckydog]

Huh? So by this logic any time a man engages a women in a debate it can be construed as an alt right tactic. That is just silly.

Edit Especially considering the conversation in question was apolitical.

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It feels like this is where we are going. Any time a man has the temerity to say anything at all to anyone other than an old white cis-gendered male, he is a nazi/misogynist/alt-right/bigot/asshat

 

[oni-link]

Man, you people will just leap to give dudes on YouTube or Twitch the benefit of the doubt for just displaying "polite" passive aggressiveness.

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Yeah about half a dozen other posters called you out on your post, and then another 3 or 4 on the fact you were wrong on the timeline

Clearly you're not worth debating on the subject

 

[Manu]

Man, you people will just leap to give dudes on YouTube or Twitch the benefit of the doubt for just displaying "polite" passive aggressiveness.

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You haven't adressed how you got your timeline wrong.

And even if the guy was passive agressive (I still think he wasn't, or at most he did it by accident) it still didn't warrant the kind of response he got from her.

 

[Deleted member 3853]

More big game companies whose statements would make a big impact should be like "we condemn the ArenaNet's firings, treat our employees better, and won't empower the type of gamers who think they own this industry".

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Why would they want to suggest to their employees that they can be assholes on twitter without penalty?

 

[Kinthey]

Man, you people will just leap to give dudes on YouTube or Twitch the benefit of the doubt for just displaying "polite" passive aggressiveness.

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Dude, you're just inventing your own narrrative. From getting the timeline wrong to ignoring that he praised her just days before the incident, but sure, secretly he was out o get her.

 

[Ralemont]

Man, you people will just leap to give dudes on YouTube or Twitch the benefit of the doubt for just displaying "polite" passive aggressiveness.

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Benefit of the doubt isn't needed when we have actual context, like we do in this case. People seeing passive aggressiveness came to that tweet wanting to see it. The worst you can say is that he was attempting to comment on a topic to someone who knew more about the topic than him.

 

[Casual]

More big game companies whose statements would make a big impact should be like "we condemn the ArenaNet's firings, treat our employees better, and won't empower the type of gamers who think they own this industry".

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Why would they do that?

Most big game companies would also fire their employees for being an asshole to their customers on Twitter.

 

[Thorrgal]

I just can't with these posts. It's beyond the pale at this point.

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Maybe it's you then

 

[Veggen]

More big game companies whose statements would make a big impact should be like "we condemn the ArenaNet's firings, treat our employees better, and won't empower the type of gamers who think they own this industry".

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This is a pretty good template for them to use too, don't you think?

 

[Mobius and Pet Octopus]

This was not a superficial assessment at all,

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I am saying you should get facts before making such judgments. There was no policy and they knew how she was before being hired.

The whole morality argument also has very little to no room in corporations as it isn't a human entity were such decision are made based on human emotions or feelings.

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Who said emotions or feelings? That's a very big strawman. Claiming morality has no place in corporations is very naive. Their customers, their potential future employees, the media, they're all impacted by their decision to fire publicly and to not be aware of those potential results is to be negligent. I suggest not looking at the world so black and white. Companies have responsibility towards their shareholders that is impacted by their perception by the larger public and all the little entities that affect their bottom line. In short, when a company does a shitty thing like call the cops on a few black customers who are doing nothing wrong but waiting for a friend, the public can force them to respond to it even though the action in itself may be supported by policy or common practice. Hence what I said is true, that customers can hold them to standards and they should know by now. And it's not just customers, it's future employers that may choose not to work there as a result, it's hiring agencies that may steer potential recruits to other places, it's media that may paint you in a negative light which can affect customers choosing to avoid your product. To say there is very little room here... okay buddy. Good luck in the corporate world.

But this again seems to come back to the whole point of people not really being informed on how corporations and companies in workings actually really work, so when this sort of thing happens many seem to believe this is something very uncommon and unprecedented.

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Again with the the strawman, never said it was very uncommon or unprecedented. And towards your assumption that I am ignorant to how companies work, incorrect. I am well aware how companies work and to assume I don't simply because I disagree with you on a few points is very egotistical, basically saying because someone disagrees with you they must be ignorant.

 

[Deleted member 888]

This is a pretty good template for them to use too, don't you think?

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That's a nice and reasonable statement. What you won't find in it though is that employer stating they operate on a policy of anything goes when talking to customers.

Being open about internal policies and saying they will support their staff against harassment isn't anything to do with saying come work for us and you can say whatever you want to customers without any consequence.

Always standing behind your developers and employees when they do no wrong, yes. I'd hopefully expect that from most companies. If you read that statement closely though as I implied it's not suggesting it's a work environment with no filter.

A poster earlier was saying more companies should condemn this firing. The irony there is many of said companies would support their ability to fire employees for acting out on social media. So the best you'll get from most other companies is latching onto saying they'll support their employees against harassment.

 

[Deleted member 1635]

I do like the repeated usage of the word "attack" (including in Arenanet's statement) to describe Price's actions. She attacked him. Rawr. Dangerous. She's abusive.

She called a rando asshat a "rando asshat" on Twitter. Rude, yeah. Dismissive, sure. An attack? I wish I were so privileged as to consider someone calling me an ass to be an attack on my person. But of course, this overdramatic language is par for the course for gamers, who view themselves as the perpetually oppressed Rebel Alliance fighting the tyrannical Empire of feminists, politicians, corporations, and parents who want to take their games away.

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I mean... have you seen how some people are describing describing Deroir's actions? All sorts of wild hyperbole. I would say "attack" is not nearly on the same level as those, especially when she actually was very hostile to him and decided to showcase his tweets as an example of misogyny or sexual harassment to her entire follower base. That's definitely an attack in Twitter terms.

 

[Casual]

This is a pretty good template for them to use too, don't you think?

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Except this has nothing to do with the situation here, since Price wasn't being harassed.

 

[Deleted member 1635]

It's really amazing how those who rail loudest against "SJWs" and "soyboys" are actually the biggest snowflakes in the world. One use of the word "asshat" and they run crying to corporate like the sad little trolls they are.

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It was the mischaracterization of sexual harassment, I imagine, that really got her in trouble. That's straight up trying to ruin that guy's reputation.

 

[Deleted member 1635]

LMAO good luck with that now that all your employees know one rude tweet will escalate you straight to losing your job. Everyone who works for them should immediately delete any social media account tied to their name.

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Except that's obviously not true. You can point to Jessica Price's own Twitter account as being an example of how Arena Net doesn't care if you're vulgar and mean on social media as long as, seemingly, you do not directly lash out and make accusations of customers and business partners who absolutely were not deserving of it.

 

[Deleted member 24907]

Except this has nothing to do with the situation here, since Price wasn't being harassed.

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?

She'd been the target of a hate-mob for quite some time and they pounced on her Twitter outburst to get her fired.

 

[Manu]

I mean... have you seen how some people are describing describing Deroir's actions? All sorts of wild hyperbole. I would say "attack" is not nearly on the same level as those, especially when she actually was very hostile to him and decided to showcase his tweets as an example of misogyny or sexual harassment to her entire follower base. That's definitely an attack in Twitter terms.

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It's a weird double standard, really.

What he said can be taken as manspaining, he thinking he knows better than her, or even casual/unintended (or for some people, intentional) sexism. But we can't call her response an attack for some reason.

I've seen it happen in this thread and it's why I've been weary to post so far. Users have been (rightfully) banned for vilifying the press or downplaying the misogyny angle of the story, but apparently it's fair game to call Deroir an undercover Gamergater and shit.

This thread has been a rollercoaster.

 

[Casual]

?

She'd been the target of a hate-mob for quite some time and they pounced on her Twitter outburst to get her fired.

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Except that's not why she got fired.

She got fired for being a childish asshole to someone who wasn't part of that hate mob.

Being a target of a hate mob isn't a pass to take your anger out on people unrelated to that mob.

 

[Veggen]

Except this has nothing to do with the situation here, since Price wasn't being harassed.

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Do you disagree with the third paragraph? That makes it clear why it's relevant.

 

[Deleted member 1635]

It would be mansplaining if your wife throughtly told you why she painted the wall red, her reasons why it looks better with the rest of the house and furniture, bla bla and you went "Nah, blue is better"

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Holy shit... You really believe this?

You're basically saying that men are not allowed to disagree with women if the woman believes she has thoroughly thought something through.

 

[Deleted member 24907]

Except that's not why she got fired.

She got fired for being a childish asshole to someone who wasn't part of that hate mob.

Being a target of a hate mob isn't a pass to take your anger out on people unrelated to that mob.

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She wasn't fighting the mob, but ArenaNet's behavior was absolutely influenced by the abnormally intense campaign to get her fired that flared up immediately after her outburst. She was fired within 12 hours of it happening, and they actively said they wished they could've done so sooner had it not been for the holiday.

Let's not pretend the firing happened in a vacuum and that the hate mob did not exacerbate the situation forcing ArenaNet's hand.

 

[Casual]

Do you disagree with the third paragraph? That makes it clear why it's relevant.

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No.

I don't see why her firing would be a catalyst to discuss the way they deal with the harassment of their own staff when her firing had nothing to do with her being harassed.

 

[Pazmatic]

She wasn't fighting the mob, but ArenaNet's behavior was absolutely influenced by the abnormally intense campaign to get her fired that flared up immediately after her outburst. She was fired within 12 hours of it happening, and they actively said they wished they could've done so sooner had it not been for the holiday.

Let's not pretend the firing happened in a vacuum and that the hate mob did not exacerbate the situation forcing ArenaNet's hand.

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But Arenanet also said the mob had no influence in their decision, and in fact the decision was made before the mob even formed.