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Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,674
What's kind of ironic about this game is that it was directed by Shaun Escayg, previously of Naughty Dog. He directed the absolutely wonderful Uncharted Lost Legacy. Unfortunately people from Naughty Dog like Shaun and Amy Hennig seem to be cursed when it comes to releasing a sucuessful AAA game on their own outside of the Dog Pound.

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In fairness one of the best things the game has hands-down is its campaign mode which Escayg was largely in charge of.

He and Vince Napoli are the true MVPs of CD atm. Napoli was the combat designer behind God of War 2018 and is thus responsible for the other best thing the game has: its overall combat system and the way all the heroes are mechanically designed.
 

snausages

Member
Feb 12, 2018
10,388
Discussion around this game is so weird, like vultures picking at a carcass. It's not a very good game but it's one that could be a lot more... with an ambitious content roadmap. Then again I'm one of the very weird people who was actually interested in the GAAS aspects and think the combat has a sort of potential to it. Just the current package is nowhere near where it needs to be.

Like I would kill the single player campaign for a more fleshed out online, but they needed to commit to one or the other and not both IMO. I dunno if they imagined like this would be like FFXIV but with Avengers but unfortunately it ended up being just that and not in the way they might have hoped
 

Hzsn724

Member
Nov 10, 2017
1,767
I'm not sure anything can save this game at this point. It's just not very fun to play. The grind is the worst part, and they just made it harder...
 

LossAversion

The Merchant of ERA
Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,729
I don't frequent Twitch. Do people generally watch co-op games in droves? Has Borderlands ever been big on Twitch, for example? Let alone months after launch?
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
15,022
Canada
It's so bizarre that I can't even decide which ugly costume to use for each character.

If I play Spider-Man, I have trouble deciding which costume to use because most of them are so cool. Avengers? "Do I want classic but lifeless, robot pants, or an ugly recolour?"

It's hilarious that one of the roadmap stops is "New Costumes". Like, that's apparently your revenue stream? Why's that a milestone?
 

DrBo42

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,760
I don't frequent Twitch. Do people generally watch co-op games in droves? Has Borderlands ever been big on Twitch, for example? Let alone months after launch?
Borderlands was pretty big, at least the recent one was. Simply for the buzz, big streamers playing it, some neat Twitch integration, FOMO of Steam users not being able to play it while Epic players could. But I don't know how compelling that was to watch. I know for sure Avengers is not something I could watch on stream. Playing it is the only way to squeeze enjoyment from it for me personally.
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,524
Bandung Indonesia
Also it's weird as heck that people taking a realistic view about the game's chance or the fact that many are unwilling to buy or continue in the game's ecosystem as a sign for people "hating" the game by some fans.

What's the opposite of "hating" the game then? Saying the game is OK when every indication is anywhere but?
 

Brazil

Actual Brazilian
Member
Oct 24, 2017
18,447
São Paulo, Brazil
Just throwing this out there...this game has a fantastic campaign. It's really only half a live service game, half single player story game. Reviews pretty universally praised the campaign, too, so I'm not sure why it's considered a "really bad game". There's value in here other than the multiplayer.
"Fantastic"? Really? Most of the missions are built on the exact same repetitive template due to the game's foundation being centered around MP, and those that aren't are mostly focused on barebones platforming.

"Fantastic" feels like a Kamala-like stretch, and I actually enjoyed the campaign.
 

Son of Sparda

"This guy are sick" says The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,647
"Fantastic"? Really? Most of the missions are built on the exact same repetitive template due to the game's foundation being centered around MP, and those that aren't are mostly focused on barebones platforming.

"Fantastic" feels like a Kamala-like stretch, and I actually enjoyed the campaign.
Yea, I don't know where this idea that Avengers has a fantastic campaign came from.

The game has a good campaign that like you said, is obviously restricted by the game being designed as a MP title (this is very obvious in later missions). It's a fun ride but people sometimes talk about it as if it's Uncharted or something.
 

ARobotCalledV

Member
Aug 22, 2020
1,554
I enjoyed the campaign but it is definitely in the OK area. Acting is oddly bad given the tier of actors and the mission structure isn't interesting and very by the books. Some set pieces are very fun but they are outweighed by the bland corridors and large empty open areas.The best part of the story, Kamala, seems to become less and less important until the end.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,498
Henderson, NV
Initially bought the game to play with my nephew on PS4. By the time I made it to the mission when you reunite with Iron Man, I was mostly fighting myself searching for reasons to continue onward. The combat and repetition bored me, literally, to sleep. My nephew tried too. He finishes everything. Tore through Miles Morales and Spider-Man in a few days, then devoured the DLC. He tried hard, but couldn't find the motivation to finish the campaign. When the game went on sale on the Stadia, I considered giving this game another try, but then the idea of fighting mindlessly made me tired and a little annoyed.
 

Qudi

Member
Jul 26, 2018
5,330
It shows how important it is to leave a good first impression, which this game didn't do in its reveal. The terrible character designs will always be engraved in people minds when they think about this game.

Im always for redemption arcs and hope the studio can turn this round just like Star Wars Battlefront 2 was a train wreck in the beginning, but people love it now, myself included.
 

Zomba13

#1 Waluigi Fan! Current Status: Crying
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,962
It still boggles my mind how unsuccessful this game is when the MCU is still so hot, especially with WandaVision being a recent hit and Falcon and the Winter Soldier just starting on Disney+. You'd think it would get a lot more people interested in giving the game a try.

They had the deck stacked in their favour and still ended up like this.

It really is an interesting thing especially in contrast with Spider-Man on PS.

I really think that 1) it shouldn't have been GAAS/Loot based. Multiplayer, sure, but not something designed for grinding and a billion mtx costumes etc. And 2) should've come later. I feel there should've been more Marvel games and such first establishing some heroes and then Avengers is the big event, just like the MCU. Obviously that would be hard, but license out characters to different devs and stipulate in contracts and agreements that these characters will show up in The Avengers, I'm sure Disney could sort that stuff out being the behemoth of media that they are.
 

Yuntu

Prophet of Regret
Member
Nov 7, 2019
10,735
Germany
What other game of this kind that work well without a proper cosmetic / glamor system? Since you said it could work, care to give examples?

Cosmetics / character appearance customization are always a huge deal for games like this.

I mean they have cosmetics? Wasn't arguing about cosmetics but gear changing visuals on the character. Genshin Impact would be one - you cannot adjust how your character looks in that game and yet it booms in popularity.

Anyways if people really wanna reduce this games problems to the gear not being visible then they are plainly wrong.
 

Voodoopeople

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,874
I'm having a lovely time with this game on my XSX. Graphically great, really really endearing protagonist and nicely varied gameplay so far. Don't really understand the criticism, but then my definition of "end game" is putting the controller down and switching off my console, so I think I have different expectations from this title to others.
 

Chev

Member
Mar 1, 2021
682
Genshin Impact has like 30 characters with more coming, which considerably offsets the needs for visual customization. If Avengers had even half of Genshin's character count people would be a lot happier.
 

Bufbaf

Don't F5!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,696
Hamburg, Germany
Discussion around this game is so weird, like vultures picking at a carcass. It's not a very good game but it's one that could be a lot more... with an ambitious content roadmap. Then again I'm one of the very weird people who was actually interested in the GAAS aspects and think the combat has a sort of potential to it. Just the current package is nowhere near where it needs to be.
Yeah but could it really? It's absolute fundamental basics are very, very flawed, and I'm counting everything from mission design to loot behaviour and cosmetics, from ingame store to random pickups, xp system, character selection, singleplayer gameplay, motivation to continue after finishing the story, existing and upcoming areas and actual content variety, level design in- and outdoors, corridoors and AIM everywhere.

What's really good about it is the single player story (explicitely excluding the gameplay here), and that's pretty much where it ends when I check reviews, Youtube videos and other voices about the game.

It might be that you, in particular, really enjoy the general gameplay, but a ton of players don't and say it's repetitive, you die out of nowhere, the leveling system is flawed and the actual gameplay feels samey and boring between the few playable Avengers. Then there's the whole deal having to repeatedly level more characters if you want them, which would require a lot of grind with very little variety.

I would be happy if this game can somehow turn itself around, but with this many pillars already broken, I don't know if there's any chance at all it will completely recover before it gets eventually shuttered. Personally, I think Anthem had a much, much better chance of redeeming itself, but it had two chances (one directly after launch, one with the "remake" plans) and it missed both of them. Avengers is in a similar boat, but it has a far less imaginative world, and why it's story is surely more enjoyed than Anthem's, it has even bigger issues when it comes to actual game mechanics that aren't affected by the well working fighting system itself (i.e. loot, world design, character design, customization, quest design and amount and variety and so on), stuff that can't just be fixed by throwing more characters at it.

And, don't forget, with all of this, Avengers is still the licensing deal of the decade. There's practically nothing in pop culture that's bigger than Avengers right now. There's more than just the developers looking at how this goes.
 

Roshin

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,841
Sweden
I always expected the game to be a love letter to Marvel, ie a steady stream of characters, quests and storylines lifted from the comics, collect different costumes, collect classic comic book covers, unlock info about the comics, artists, etc. I've said it before, but I think it's so strange it turned out this way.
 

Axon

Banned
Mar 9, 2020
2,397
That this game was as much of a failure as it with Marvel and the Avengers beeing at their peak popularity when it released is really a testament to how much they screwed this game up.
 

NekoNeko

Coward
Oct 26, 2017
18,481
It still boggles my mind how unsuccessful this game is when the MCU is still so hot, especially with WandaVision being a recent hit and Falcon and the Winter Soldier just starting on Disney+. You'd think it would get a lot more people interested in giving the game a try.
why? sales were pretty good and pretty much entirely based on name recognition because it looked like ass since day 1. they just expected more and people don't stick around if the game is garbage.
 

Axon

Banned
Mar 9, 2020
2,397
Im also on the team that the art-style did a number on this game. Its not the only factor, but it is a big one. Its certainly the main factor that makes me completely uninterested in this game. The art-direction is a monumental failure.
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,524
Bandung Indonesia
Anyways if people really wanna reduce this games problems to the gear not being visible then they are plainly wrong.

It's not that "reducing it to gear not being visible."

Its just that visible cosmetic/glamor is kinda a huge deal in multiplayer coop games like this. People reallllly love that kind of shit, such as in FFXIV (MMORPG, but well, it's not that dissimilar to GaaS), Division games, Monster Hunter World, etc etc. A LOT of people are into this kind of thing.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
Genshin Impact has like 30 characters with more coming, which considerably offsets the needs for visual customization. If Avengers had even half of Genshin's character count people would be a lot happier.
I play both, Genshin's open world and exploration are the stars. It's new characters are pretty limited, they have different animations, 2 abilities, a few passives, and a weapon type. Some of their characters get missions added to the game, missions that seem not so elaborate so far.

The majority of the added characters are just dropped in the game, and to even collect them all you have to spend a ton if you aren't lucky. The characters in Genshin pretty much only play one way, the difference in builds are only the buffs that the artifacts/weapon give you and how many constellations you have unlocked. The Avengers combat is much more different, though Genshin might make up for it with being able to fast swap and combo elements for damage bonuses, and other benefits.

Again the environment design of Genshin is what shines, the elevation, art, collectibles, the enemy layout, and they actually have a good amount of bosses (this is almost killed by the stamina bar, and the annoying cold system in that new ice area. Avengers have unlimited sprint). Playing through Hawkeye's story felt nice having specific fight encounters designed to be a certain way, it reminds me of Dragon Age Inquisitions open world vs the carefully crafted linear mission dungeons. The dungeons were much more interesting and challenging maybe because there was only a few ways to approach encounters. Hopefully in future Avengers content, they will design the activities better. The combat is very good, it's just boring fighting the same things in the same empty feeling open spaces. Even though Genshin has a awesome open world, it too gets very boring after you're done collecting every rare thing that motivate you to explore it.
 

Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,239
Spain
Next time, make a good singleplayer game that is actually fun to play and budget it around making your profit by, you know, selling copies of the game.
 

dskzero

Member
Oct 30, 2019
3,373
It boggles my mind people expected anything from this game. It looked just like Anthem and Godfall: a soulless copy of a trend, something so designed by the numbers. I'm kinda glad it failed, even if it sounds like a really sad thing to say, but I'm sick of watching games like these get hype when they look so miserably generic.

If a game, port or anything similar is bad, it should fail. There isn't any romance into these.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,046
I can understand writing this game off based on what it has to offer today, but I think it's too early to dismiss the future content updates. You can't play hype. People who are excited by Black Panther aren't jumping in today when you can assuredly claim the content is five months away, at best. Of course, that also speaks to a lack of inspiring updates on the roadmap between now and then, but in terms of communication they've made it clear that Wakanda is the one to watch and get excited about.

That being said, I don't think YouTube is any less of a metric in this conversation than the Twitch number, so I would point out that IGN's upload of the Black Panther trailer has surpassed 3.2M within four days. People are listening. Not hanging on every word, but still hoping to hear that this game fulfils at least some of its potential.

I watch a lot of Kinda Funny content so I'm really in that Greg Miller mindset of wanting to will a great game into existence. I don't believe it's a lost cause yet.
 

Klyka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,573
Germany
even if they shut down the game 5 min after Black Panther expansion releases the game still had more content than Anthem XD
 

S1kkZ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,405
after playing for a dozen hours....yeah, this is still not great:

- most options to unlock costumes have been removed. they push for mtx and they push it hard.
- some costumes are no loger unlockable, since they removed the costumes you get for reaching level 50.
- hawkeye is buggy as hell. when you play him the sound drops out (especially if you use a pulse 3d headset), there are 5-10 second "pauses" when you enter menus, some of his moves (parry, healing arrow) often dont work and he gets stuck in walls too often.
- some missions in the new area dont show up (or only via workaround by going offline).
- hawkeyes story makes little sense and maestro ist wasted (honestly: if you watched the first trailer for hawkeye, you have seen all of maestro - no, i am not kidding).
- the new boss is pretty much a re-skinnd abomination
 

Klyka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,573
Germany
after playing for a dozen hours....yeah, this is still not great:

- most options to unlock costumes have been removed. they push for mtx and they push it hard.
- some costumes are no loger unlockable, since they removed the costumes you get for reaching level 50.
- hawkeye is buggy as hell. when you play him the sound drops out (especially if you use a pulse 3d headset), there are 5-10 second "pauses" when you enter menus, some of his moves (parry, healing arrow) often dont work and he gets stuck in walls too often.
- some missions in the new area dont show up (or only via workaround by going offline).
- hawkeyes story makes little sense and maestro ist wasted (honestly: if you watched the first trailer for hawkeye, you have seen all of maestro - no, i am not kidding).
- the new boss is pretty much a re-skinnd abomination
the costume stuff was talked about by the devs a couple weeks before this patch. they are retooling how you get patterns and costumes (probably that post-50 leveling thing) and so for now it is turned off
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
15,022
Canada
the costume stuff was talked about by the devs a couple weeks before this patch. they are retooling how you get patterns and costumes (probably that post-50 leveling thing) and so for now it is turned off

"We're re-tooling it, so we've turned it off entirely" is such a cop-out. Especially in a game where re-tooling everything else is necessary and they seemed slow at getting anything done, even before and after external factors really ramped up.

Like, sure, re-tool it, that makes sense, but don't just turn it off entirely in the meantime. Why not keep it status quo, instead of just outright taking the unlocks away from people?
 

PanzerKraken

Member
Nov 1, 2017
15,039
Just throwing this out there...this game has a fantastic campaign. It's really only half a live service game, half single player story game. Reviews pretty universally praised the campaign, too, so I'm not sure why it's considered a "really bad game". There's value in here other than the multiplayer.

The game is fine till you get to the GAAS post campaign stuff. Then you realize they kinda forgot to make content for it. You get a few side mission things to do after you beat the campaign but there is like no post campaign unique MP content to keep folks playing.

They released two big content drops with two characters and it's basically just extending the campaign, again mostly ignoring the post campaign MP portion of the game. The focus of development is baffling.
 

DontHateTheBacon

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,428
Is Destiny the only game to actually successfully pull this GaaS model off? It's so wild we have a term for a genre in which most of them are failures.
 

Einbroch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,057
Why in the hell weren't you a create-a-hero in this game.

Campaign as the real heroes is fine, but the multiplayer should have been you being your own hero, leveling up, earning new powers, investing in your unique skill tree, unlocking and buying cosmetics that changed your appearance...

Such a stupid idea from the outset.
 

Klyka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,573
Germany
Why in the hell weren't you a create-a-hero in this game.

Campaign as the real heroes is fine, but the multiplayer should have been you being your own hero, leveling up, earning new powers, investing in your unique skill tree, unlocking and buying cosmetics that changed your appearance...

Such a stupid idea from the outset.
oh god no. the last thing I would want is another DC Universe where instead of playing AS Batman I play as "Person who does everything Batman does but isn't actually Batman"
No thanks
 

Bardeh

Member
Jun 15, 2018
2,715
They had Marvel Heroes (RIP) as a template on how to make a fun, compelling ARPG and seemingly took nothing from it.
 

Einbroch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,057
oh god no. the last thing I would want is another DC Universe where instead of playing AS Batman I play as "Person who does everything Batman does but isn't actually Batman"
No thanks
I mean I said the campaign can be you playing as the heroes themselves.

So instead you want this? A GaaS where everything is so tightly scrutinized and slow to approve what can be changed? And you're playing "as Hawkeye" yet hearing a random person's voice over a headset when online, fighting the same fights over and over, like a time loop. So I'm not sure how immersive that is.