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Television Displays and Technology Thread: The ERA of OLED is Now
- Thread starter Jeremiah
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Also upgraded to a B7 from a plasma I was very happy with.
I'm guessing the settings weren't right or the movie you were watching on the Blu Ray wasn't a true 4k transfer because all of the 4K HDR/Dolby Vision discs I've tried are much more detailed than what I've seen on VUDU's UHD movies.
Check out some 4k HDR stuff on youtube and see how great things look.
Great write up. The lack of Dolby Vision is really a disappointment on the Q9, imo. But everything else you've mentioned sounds great. Have they enabled the VRR via firmware yet?
Alright so the OLED "stutter" is starting to get to me I think. I love the TV otherwise (though I really miss how good broadcast content looked on my Panny plasma.) You really can't feed these 4K sets anything other than high-quality content unless you get some pretty garbo PQ.
I understand stutter might be less of a problem on LED's because they have slower response times and hence "mask" the stutter on lower framerate content?
I understand stutter might be less of a problem on LED's because they have slower response times and hence "mask" the stutter on lower framerate content?
- As he mentioned in other videos, he is not happy that Samsung is using a non-reference brightness curve.
- C8 has better viewing angles.
- C8 was better for 480p upscaling. For 1080p they were equal.
- He was surprised that the Q9 was almost as good as the C8 for dark room viewing, provided you sit directly in front of the TV. He saw almost no haloing, but there less near-black detail.
- Each has its weaknesses with uniformity. Q9 has dirty-screen effect on bright fields whereas the C8 has vertical banding on near-black fields.
- Q9 is better for bright room viewing because it has a better anti-reflective filter and higher brightness.
- Q9 is better for gaming, due to VRR, lower input lag, better BFI, auto low-latency mode, and no risk of burn-in.
- Overall the two are much closer than last year's models.
Given that the tone of his previous Q9 video seemed pretty negative, I was surprised that he seemed more positive about it in this video.
Edit: Should have said 'C8', not 'C7'.
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Like cooldawn had never seen that before on mine either so that's very cool that the cycle cleaned it all up so that it's now the way it should be, yeah I'd just keep an eye on it for a bit as I'd think something like that picture would come back quickly if it was even going to.
Nice! Try out some big 4K HDR on that sweet TV! :)
Speaking of which: My 4 thin dark grey vertical banding lines are completely gone after 300h of normal usage on my B7. Don't ask me why. I am extremely picky when it comes to image quality.
Awesome write-up, thank you. Damn, so Vincent really likes this set...
Just went from watching Fury Road in Dolby Vision in my living room to regular HD SDR on my bedroom LCD and the difference is like going from black and white to color. It literally doesn't even look like the same movie. 'm in shock
Just watched Spiderman Homecoming in Dolby Vision. It's lit.
I watched an episode from the Grand Tour (Amazon videos) in 4K HDR. Mind blown. Good sound as well, impressive for such a flat panel.
Anyone using an Apple TV 4K specifically with a B6, could you test something for me? Turn on frame rate matching, and range matching in options, then watch something in either Netflix or any other film-based service - do you get horrible flickering in low-light scenes? I guess it is related to 24Hz mode being engaged but it looks horrible, and none of my other players show the issue.
You forgot the most important part. Samsung crushes black details to keep the black levels. If they fixed this, the black levels would rise.
Samsung is also dimming light sources in dark scenes to keep the backlight algorithm from turning on too many neighboring zones.
This is what the DX902 did to achieve 0.007 blacks, for its highest setting, and that would rise depending on how bright you wanted highlights, but the downside would be lighter blacks, and ghosting.
Yeah, and I don't really understand why they have it so low. Mine's set to 40.
I didn't forget. I wrote "less near-black detail" in the list.
The impression I got was that Vincent seemed to think that doing this was a pretty good tradeoff compared to having blooming and haloing. Of course, your personal priorities may vary. One thing that the video did not really make clear is how often it occurs, and whether it is a problem with just antagonistic scenes like starfields or with dark scenes in general.
how do TVs map actual light output to HDR input? eg if dolby vision is up to 4000 nits, but the TV tops out at 1000.
Would the TV map so that 4000 input = 1000 output, or would they take 1000 input = 1000 output and anything higher is clipped?
And I'm curious why they go for absolute nit values. Surely most TVs aren't calibrated in homes to provide actual nits, and viewing situations change (eg you may have lots of ambient light). Absolute values seems an odd measure when people won't be viewing in controlled environments.
As an aside from that - do HDR specs specify an expected level of ambient light for viewing? And is there any way for a home user to do basic calibration of brightness so eg SDR tops out at 100nits?
Would the TV map so that 4000 input = 1000 output, or would they take 1000 input = 1000 output and anything higher is clipped?
And I'm curious why they go for absolute nit values. Surely most TVs aren't calibrated in homes to provide actual nits, and viewing situations change (eg you may have lots of ambient light). Absolute values seems an odd measure when people won't be viewing in controlled environments.
As an aside from that - do HDR specs specify an expected level of ambient light for viewing? And is there any way for a home user to do basic calibration of brightness so eg SDR tops out at 100nits?
The standard for peak SDR luminance is 100 nits which on an LG OLED is roughly equal to OLED Light 17. Since they aim for absolute accuracy in their testing, it makes sense. Their recommended backlight settings on every TV are always too low for the average consumer.
What happens is the TV is no longer able to show you the specular highlight details of the nitts above the tvs performance. Its not so bad. Its just plain white, instead of near white. Almost unperceivable. The 2018 LG Oleds have now a technique that tone maps to protect the details of specular highlights without having to match the brightness nitts.
The difference between 700 nitts and 1500 nitts is very noticeable of course. But movies so rarely go to that level of detail highlight. That you're only essentially missing out on specular highlights like lightning, or a lightbulb exploding, explosions, candle light.
OLEDs don't go as bright but they really don't have too in my opinion. It's not the perfect image for only a second in films in comparison to QLEDs.
I just saw this, sorry! I think its a Samsung JU6300 or 6400. One of the older ones that doesn't do HDR.
The X900E seems to have better input lag than your current TV.
Haha awesome. Thanks for all the input i really appreciate it.
Yeah wait for Black Friday. Hopefully the 2018 models will be discounted by then. Although you can't go wrong with LGs 2017 OLEDs.
Dolby Vision and then HDR10 standards were designed for Theatres, that is one of the main issues for consumer viewers. In theory you should be viewing it in cinema style room lighting.
I don't know what the actual numbers are, but presumably in a theature the goal is that the room is as dark as black when it is projected onto the screen (which is never truly black)
In home AV world the same would apply, except it will vary a little between the type of display you have.
I'm trying to find a way to get my mom off of cable, but I'm concerned that a Netflix-esque selection process will be difficult for someone who has been just flipping through channels for decades.
Anyone have a suggestion? I hear that Roku is supposed to be the most user-friendly.
Anyone have a suggestion? I hear that Roku is supposed to be the most user-friendly.
Do you think CRT filters/shaders via emulation would cause any long term image retention or burn in issues on a OLED TV? I was always wary of playing 4:3 games on my Plasma, and was finally hoping for the time when I could get similar pq without trying to baby the set lol.
Ugh damn it. Was going to use a 10% off Best Buy coupon on the X900E but of course it's excluded. The coupon works on $2000 appliances but an $800 tv is a no go.
Hopefully I can just sell the coupon and it'll work out to something similar.
Hopefully I can just sell the coupon and it'll work out to something similar.
If your mom is anything like mine, she'll go running back to cable within 2 weeks. I gave mine a Roku, set up accounts for her and showed her how to use it but those are hard habits to change.
My wife is like that and it drives me bonkers. The crazy thing is that she never watched anything live anyways, just recorded. In that case, it's hardly different. The added step of figuring out which service it's on is just too much.
My B7 is just a little over a month old and I guess I already have burn-in? I've been babying it, going as far as to not even be playing games with constant HUDs on it. However about 4 days ago I had my PC pulled up on it as I wanted to play some PC games, however they were older games with poor PC versions so I had to troubleshoot, download patches, etc.
After everything was said and done about 6 hours had passed and it dawned on me; the windows 10 task bar was on the screen the entire time (wasn't set to auto-hide). Ever since the very bottom of the screen has had a darker shade to it versus the rest of the picture. I have watched and played plenty of varied content since, and have kept the taskbar off of the screen. I even ran the manual screen cleaning function. It's still there. My OLED light was only at 40. So am I boned or can it go away?
After everything was said and done about 6 hours had passed and it dawned on me; the windows 10 task bar was on the screen the entire time (wasn't set to auto-hide). Ever since the very bottom of the screen has had a darker shade to it versus the rest of the picture. I have watched and played plenty of varied content since, and have kept the taskbar off of the screen. I even ran the manual screen cleaning function. It's still there. My OLED light was only at 40. So am I boned or can it go away?
Playing through Detroit on my B7A and just stunned consistently by how good it looks. First real game playing on the TV (had for a couple months now) that's really wowed me.
The only game I've spent a significant amount of time with so far on my B7 is Destiny 2 on the One X, but I feel like with HDR on it's way too bright to where I need to take a break for a while or else my eyes will hurt.
Is that corrected by dialing down the OLED light? I'm not playing in Game mode because I didn't notice a difference with input lag, just on the default Standard HDR picture setting.
Is that corrected by dialing down the OLED light? I'm not playing in Game mode because I didn't notice a difference with input lag, just on the default Standard HDR picture setting.
You didn't notice a difference in input lag?!
Yes, I believe lowering OLED light will reduce HDR brightness.
Idk maybe I'm just not sensitive to it? It just looks so good with out game mode on. I'll play some in game mode tonight and see what difference it makes. For me I'd rather have the full visual fidelity over 20ms difference. If I was playing a platformer I'd probably turn it on but a shooter I can deal.
Anyone of the A1 owners experianced a sluggish control when he boots the TV? My remote control often does not respond for multiple seconds, especially when I boot the TV. Then it just goes back to normal. This is a really weird issue.
When I think back I generally started to have weird issues after the latest firmware update. At first my TV started to crash when I watched movies from a hard drive (luckily only there and not when I watch movies over the PS4 or some other device, which makes me assume the problem is with android TV) and now my remote control is sluggish as hell.
Anyone else have similar issues?
When I think back I generally started to have weird issues after the latest firmware update. At first my TV started to crash when I watched movies from a hard drive (luckily only there and not when I watch movies over the PS4 or some other device, which makes me assume the problem is with android TV) and now my remote control is sluggish as hell.
Anyone else have similar issues?
Honestly it doesn't sound like a ton of time for this to happen, but I suppose it's possible that they are more sensitive early on.
It also could be that the issue was there with your particular panel, but you didn't notice it until later. I think mine may be a bit of a different shade on dark gray along the bottom edge.
I agree that HDR Cinema Mode with Dynamic Contrast set to low does look brighter and punchier than Game Mode. But I tried to play Gears 4 with Game Mode disabled and the input lag was pretty bad. Destiny was actually pretty playable though. Think that game is just a lot more responsive.
Try the pixel refresher you should be good. And then set your taskbar to auto hide.
It's also possible that this darkness at the bottom was always there, and you're just now noticing because you frraked out about the task bar. The top of my B7 is slightly darker than the rest of the panel, with a bit of a yellow tint on an all white screen.
Already did pixel refresher. Pretty sure it wasn't always there as I scrutinized the screen over the past month.
Not sure then, but I don't think the black task bar would burn in, it's the icons themselves that would do that. Maybe take a picture for us?
Seems unlikely to be burn in imo, on OLED it isn't something that shows up that quickly usually. I've definitely had my browser bar/game huds/Ableton Live session on the screen for more than 6 hours at a time on a regular basis.
Haven't even thought about burn-in since I got the B7. Should I keep Contrast and Backlight low during early use for gaming?
Not to defend the Q9FN, but unless you had another display showing the same scene right next to it you might not notice that Samsung is crushing blacks and dimming highlights. That's the price you pay sadly with this technology; the native contrast of a VA LCD panel is only so good, and worse-case scenarios with FALD displays are limited by the native CR of the panel itself. Hence why the Sony Z9D can only produce grayish blacks in mixed scenes, the Q9FN can apparently do better with its aggressive local dimming but at the cost of detail in near-blacks/etc.
Pick your poison.
The Q9FN's black level with local dimming is about as good as the best plasma TVs were. I think that's a big breakthrough and puts the display close to OLED for black level performance. Just, you aren't getting content the way the director intended... as a gaming display I think it's easier to justify, probably the best game display ever? With video games "reference" is more subjective than with film, and Samsung has VRR + best in class input latency + no image retention.
That sucks. Everyday I am about to pull a trigger on an oled. Then these things pop up. Maybe I will just get a tcl 6 series and wait a few years till 2.1 is sorted then and see what the market is like then.
... and in 2019, *ALL* decent TVs will have those features, not just Samsung, thanks to HDMI 2.1 being on all of them. Can't wait. Hoping for a across the board increase in Color Gamut and brightness also. The Samsung Q series really got some serious bumps this year with HDMI 2.1 features and good increases in color volume on many models. I'm hoping it's a precursor for a lot of good stuff next year.
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