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BlackLagoon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,767
Honest question why has there been no attempt to remove this stuff from other U.S. and European facing stores that are not Steam? For example Jast USA who localized Steins Gate has this kind of stuff on their website listed as "uncensored" . Surely are some serious legal issues with hosting and selling this stuff
AFAIK most countries have much looser restrictions, if any, on images that clearly don't involved any actual real world children. Initially Sweden seemed like the exception with a very broad and loosely defined child pornography law, leading to the Dead or Alive Dimensions debacle, and arrest of a professional manga translator for possession 39 objectionable images in his manga collection. But the translator was later cleared in the supreme court, something the police child pornography unit voiced their support of as they viewed it as a "dangerous waste of time" to divert resources away from protecting real children.
 

Bomblord

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 11, 2018
6,390
AFAIK most countries have much looser restrictions, if any, on images that clearly don't involved any actual real world children. Initially Sweden seemed like the exception with a very broad and loosely defined child pornography law, leading to the Dead or Alive Dimensions debacle, and arrest of a professional manga translator for possession 39 objectionable images in his manga collection. But the translator was later cleared in the supreme court, something the police child pornography unit voiced their support of as they viewed it as a "dangerous waste of time" to divert resources away from protecting real children.

Seems weirdly disingenuous to assume that time spent preventing the spread of it in an animated/drawn form is actively taking time away from protecting real children. Are the child pornography units in Sweden actually stretched that thin? As for "most countries" I admit I am having trouble finding anything that generally applies to most of them I just assumed the UK laws which are very strict (according to some visual novel developers I personally know over there) would be comparable to most of Europe.
 

KDR_11k

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
5,235
Surprising that Steam is taking any measures with their normal "let the machines/community handle everything" approach. Did they get threatened by lawmakers?
 

Hakunon

Member
Oct 11, 2018
311
Good riddance. It's great they take appearance into consideration, no more 1000 year old lolis.
 

iRAWRasaurus

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,729
They targeted waifus, WAIFUS!
2018-12-08.jpg
 

Yukari

Member
Mar 28, 2018
11,719
Thailand
AFAIK most countries have much looser restrictions, if any, on images that clearly don't involved any actual real world children. Initially Sweden seemed like the exception with a very broad and loosely defined child pornography law, leading to the Dead or Alive Dimensions debacle, and arrest of a professional manga translator for possession 39 objectionable images in his manga collection. But the translator was later cleared in the supreme court, something the police child pornography unit voiced their support of as they viewed it as a "dangerous waste of time" to divert resources away from protecting real children.

Didn't recently canada(or swiss idk ?) have case that a man get caught due from he brought a lot Doujinshi 18+ to the country after back from travel in japan but he get release after along with His Doujinshi.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,723
This is annoying because Japan seems to have an obligation to use high school as the setting for all their porn, even when the characters wouldn't look like high schoolers without that being the locale.
This is mitigated by, well, there are other ways to buy games than Steam.
 

deathkiller

Member
Apr 11, 2018
928
Seems weirdly disingenuous to assume that time spent preventing the spread of it in an animated/drawn form is actively taking time away from protecting real children. Are the child pornography units in Sweden actually stretched that thin? As for "most countries" I admit I am having trouble finding anything that generally applies to most of them I just assumed the UK laws which are very strict (according to some visual novel developers I personally know over there) would be comparable to most of Europe.
I imagine that is incredibly hard and time consuming to catch distributors of child pornography that use multiple layers of encryption and anonymity. I doubt their teams are like "we have too many resources so let's also protect fictional children".

In my country, police and the judiciary in general are stretched thin so it seems a valid reason to me. It's fine if it is illegal but it shouldn't be a priority for the police at all.
 

BlackLagoon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,767
Seems weirdly disingenuous to assume that time spent preventing the spread of it in an animated/drawn form is actively taking time away from protecting real children. Are the child pornography units in Sweden actually stretched that thin?
Government organizations do not have unlimited resources, when you ask them to emphasize a new area, it will generally mean taking resources away from an existing task.

And investigating modern child pornography is a very resource intensive task. It involves long term infiltration/hacking of hidden online communities to identify suspects and the suspects have to be investigated and evidence secured. Then when they get the actual child pornography, often sizable "collections" with thousands of items, every picture, frame of video and each sound has to be carefully analyzed to look for clues as to the child and abuser's identity and the time frame and location the abuse happened. And assuming they are successful, the images usually come from a foreign country, which means further time spent coordinating with law enforcement from all over the world making sure they have the evidence they need and that investigation on their end is progressing.

It is slow, complicated and grueling work, and finding officers who both have the technical expertise and stomach for it isn't easy. Burn out rate is also higher than average, meaning new officers are constantly needed. So all things considered, I don't think shoving additional tasks on child pornography investigators is something that should be taken lightly.
 

Bomblord

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 11, 2018
6,390
Government organizations do not have unlimited resources, when you ask them to emphasize a new area, it will generally mean taking resources away from an existing task.

And investigating modern child pornography is a very resource intensive task. It involves long term infiltration/hacking of hidden online communities to identify suspects and the suspects have to be investigated and evidence secured. Then when they get the actual child pornography, often sizable "collections" with thousands of items, every picture, frame of video and each sound has to be carefully analyzed to look for clues as to the child and abuser's identity and the time frame and location the abuse happened. And assuming they are successful, the images usually come from a foreign country, which means further time spent coordinating with law enforcement from all over the world making sure they have the evidence they need and that investigation on their end is progressing.

It is slow, complicated and grueling work, and finding officers who both have the technical expertise and stomach for it isn't easy. Burn out rate is also higher than average, meaning new officers are constantly needed. So all things considered, I don't think shoving additional tasks on child pornography investigators is something that should be taken lightly.

I'm not talking about infiltration of some far flung hidden online community that takes hiring dozens of hackers and social engineers to infiltrate I'm talking about public facing online stores actively selling this stuff in these countries many even with active advertisement campaigns. The example I initially used was Jast USA.
 
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Scratches

Member
Oct 25, 2017
321
The "bad look for Sony" and "the developers should go to Switch and Steam" posts of the previous weeks are aging well.

Good.
Finally Steam thinks of the children pixels on the screen.

Now we can all go back to:
https://www.thetechgame.com/images/news/article/6c341028e9.jpg

...and be happy with ourselves.
Are we doing this AGAIN? Yikes.

Don't be disingenuous. You can start a thread and initiate a conversation about the use of violence in this medium. I'm pretty sure there'll be hundreds of users agreeing with you.

But this new policy is not about "Valve thinking of the children pixels on the screen"; it's about the infantilization of women and sexual objectification of "1,000-years-old-dragons" looking and acting like 11 years old girls. Using the catch-all "but hey we are happy with violence!" dilutes the conversation.

And sorry if I'm thread policing, but reading always the same rhetoric regarding this issue it's tiresome.
 

BlackLagoon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,767
Man, I'm not talking about infiltration of some far flung hidden online community that takes hiring dozens of hackers and social engineers to infiltrate I'm talking about public facing online stores actively selling this stuff in these countries many even with active advertisement campaigns. The example I initially used was Jast USA.
But either it's illegal, or it's not. And if it's illegal the police would be obligated to divert resources to it. Or are you arguing for a symbolic ban with haphazard, arbitrary enforcement that every now and then will take out a few easy targets?
 

Bomblord

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 11, 2018
6,390
But either it's illegal, or it's not. And if it's illegal the police would be obligated to divert resources to it. Or are you arguing for a symbolic ban with haphazard, arbitrary enforcement that every now and then will take out a few easy targets?

If it's legal in most European countries there's nothing I can personally do about it. But as for my stance I'm not in favor of actively allowing it's spread and usage. You can downplay taking out "easy targets" but deterrence is a thing.

I also find it supremely silly to to say that businesses selling and advertising it to the public (even if online) should be allowed because it would take too many resources to hire hackers to also investigate the deep web. Preventing public entities from selling it is not a ""symbolic ban with haphazard, arbitrary enforcement"". As for Sweden specifically. According to you their task forces are spread too thin with too many active cases involving real children to bother with people on the deepweb or who are bringing home child pornography from Japan that's fine. That shouldn't prevent other countries from preventing the spread of the content though. Especially when business with headquarters in said countries (JAST USA is in San Diego California) are selling it.
 
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Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,833
Honestly, they should never have let these games be released. I love Valve's open format, but with games releasing with AO material, you really should give them a manual check (in the sense of "through an actual human", not automated ) before accepting them on your store.
 

Vamphuntr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,301
I'm surprised it took this long for it to happen. Nothing of importance is going to be lost.
 

Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,230
Honestly, they should never have let these games be released. I love Valve's open format, but with games releasing with AO material, you really should give them a manual check (in the sense of "through an actual human", not automated ) before accepting them on your store.

I don't think most of these got released (some definitely got though).
Part of problem is you can have store page approved way ahead of game itself and page may be acceptable while game content is not, so page maybe up until Valve declines to release.
 

Deleted member 33597

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 17, 2017
366
I'm not even going to look some of these games up and frankly I'm very happy with Valve keeping creepy shit out of their marketplace, but I do think Cross Love is a strange case. Judging by the dev's comments, they have a definite axe to grind with Valve and it just makes me ask why? They can still sell their VN on itch.io and given the AO nature of the product, it's not like they'd be getting any real extra visibility by being on Steam anyway. Hell, they'd be losing 30% of each sale.

It's such a stupid think to get pissy about to the point of publicly naming Valve employees with no real evidence they're directly responsible for the ban. And that's without going into the content of the game - if you really wanted to write a story about a character dressing up as a woman and then having sex with people, why'd you pick a high school as your setting? Why can't it be college? Are the school uniforms such an important aspect of your game that you'd rather let people think your characters are underage?

Nah, I ain't buying it. The dev knows what they're doing; they want to have their cake and eat it too. I'll admit the character don't look nearly as underage as some of the worst examples, but Valve seems to be banning anything with explicit sexual content in it involving high schools, and it's a perfectly fair position to take. No arguing semantics over "does this particular drawing look underage?", just treat them as minors if they're still going to high school. Simple.
 

cowbanana

Member
Feb 2, 2018
13,788
a Socialist Utopia
I'm OK with this. I usually strongly oppose censorship, I don't want to see violence or sex/nudity removed from games due to censorship of any kind. But my line is drawn when it comes to the multitude of (mostly animu) games with very young looking girls. Good riddance, that shit should be banned.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,833
I don't think most of these got released (some definitely got though).
Part of problem is you can have store page approved way ahead of game itself and page may be acceptable while game content is not, so page maybe up until Valve declines to release.
A page being up is fine, unless the screenshots shown are already problematic. I just mean that for these cases, someone should play the game a while and give it a thumbs up before pressing go.
 

Wispmetas

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,546
Thank god, hope nintendo does the same, not that I have any interest in this type of games, but I'll never forget how wrong it felt to pair up:
latest

Nowi in FE:A with the last guy I had that wasnt paired up with anyone, only because I wanted every character in the game...oh and that guy was Gregor...
latest


Fuck it felt so wrong, I skipped the bonding scenes.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
Thank god, hope nintendo does the same, not that I have any interest in this type of games, but I'll never forget how wrong it felt to pair up:
latest

Nowi in FE:A with the last guy I had that wasnt paired up with anyone, only because I wanted every character in the game...oh and that guy was Gregor...
latest


Fuck it felt so wrong, I skipped the bonding scenes.
comic296_zps6463473c.png

never forget
 

Alimnassor

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
773
Thank God. It's absolutely repulsive to have games with non-adults having sex. Thats pretty much what all VNs are an excuse for people to watch kids having sex. Katawa SHoujo is one in which the goal is to manipulate then fuck underage girls and yet is considered the "pinnacle of VNs". Makes you wonder.
 

wig split

Member
Nov 1, 2017
352
There's people actually defending this LMFAO It's basically a gateway into pedophilia and the fact it's taken this long to be banned is diabolical
 

Deleted member 35077

Self-requested ban
Banned
Dec 1, 2017
3,999
The steam version is censored, in a sense, all the VN are All Age and you need to contact the publisher to get an 18+ patch. Steam had the page up for the All Age version of Hello, Goodbye but removed it due to reasons. The game hasnt been release yet. Steam didnt inform NekoNyan, English publisher, why Hello, Goodbye was removed.

Other All Age VNs that would require a 18+ patch, still remain on Steam.
That's very weird. At a first sight I see nothing that would guarantee a ban; pretty vanilla if I say so. I can understand why the devs are angry about this when it falls on the same guidelines of past releases; aka no nudity or sex.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
im glad that steam has made their criteria more open...but considering the actual art style of modern anime, being able to differentiate between a high schooler or an adult is gonna be very hard to make calls on this sort of thing

especially when we're talking about a country's culture that has a big problem with fetishing younger people and their age laws being what they are
 

Jadentheman

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,207
Man FOSTA/SESTA with a dash of Metoo got everyone shook. Seems like every online platform is scrubbing
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,066
So we at least have an explanation for why the high school setting is so prevalent in Japan (and it may very well be a significant social issue there), but to me that still doesn't describe why a western adult-only homage to Japanese VNs would evoke this setting. Why not use college, which is a much more common trope in the west (or the US at least)?
 

Unaha-Closp

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,732
Scotland
Awesome. Anything to de-platform the notion or dissociate the harmful fantasy that sees children as sexual objects. It's been within humans for as long as there have been humans but Society is changing in a major way and if we can change this too - I am all for it.
 
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