Feels even shorter on the third viewing. People really exaggerate on that part.
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Star Wars: The Last Jedi |OT3| The War is Just Beginning (Unmarked Spoilers)
- Thread starter Bronx-Man
- Start date
Feels even shorter on the third viewing. People really exaggerate on that part.
That's the big issue, it could have been better handled if Luke had failed between RotJ and this moment, with someone else who he failed to turn. Heck, it could have been a love interest.
After this failure, Luke would have concluded that just because he managed to turn his father to the light side doesn't mean he can prevent everyone from falling to it, nor can he teach every force-sensitive individual to deal with this to begin with. He would have grown as a character, realizing that trying to suppress the dark side of the force from emerging or taking hold in everyone is impossible, that those sensitive to the force can't rely on jedi traditions and teachings or an order to become force-suppressors of other force-sensitive individuals, that the force must be handled less forcefully and more individually and internally. Just like he can't stop everyone weapon in the galaxy from being built, he can't prevent everyone from falling to the dark side, and in fact attempting to do so favored the emergence of a dark-force user who he failed to stop.
So cue Ben; Luke would have already rejected the whole idea of creating a jedi order, but since Ben is a relative he would have still been there for him as he grew up, just because he's someone he is close to. When he sees darkness in Ben, it makes sense that Luke would be fearful, because he failed before and doesn't want to fail again, especially not his sister and Han, he knows he can't always prevent others from embracing the dark side and it scares him more to see this in their son. Just sensing this fear in Luke would have been enough for Ben to doubt not only Luke as a teacher, but doubt his own future, leading him to Snoke eventually. No need to draw a saber on Ben.
No one is saying they want to see Luke (or any character) put on pause for 30 years. What they are saying is that a major change to a beloved character requires explanation. Some thought this movie provided the explanation required, but plenty thought it wasn't convincing
Also, no one is saying they don't want to see Luke make mistakes. They are saying the Luke they know does his best to set those mistakes right. Luke is shown to be calm, collected, and calculated throughout ROTJ. He snaps once in defense of Leia, realizes the mistake, and offers himself as a sacrifice to make things right. The reason he snaps is because his strongest character trait is that he will defend his friends at all cost, another of his traits that is at odds with the mistake he made in TLJ. The importance of friendship and family, as demonstrated through Luke, is the heart of the OT
As you said, he doesn't let his anger control him long term. Thus, hiding away on an island for 5 years while all his friends and everything he ever worked for is going to the dogs could be seen as a break from character, the type that would require some powerful writing to force the change. It is not unreasonable to be disappointed with Luke's role in this movie
That's definitely a problem. These characters just don't have enough charisma to carry the low points.
Eh, I'm not surprised. Subjective time perception is associated with mood states, after all.
Why is it so hard to understand that, in Ben, Luke sensed something darker, more chaotically evil and far gone than even Vader, and that that freaked him the fuck out? He even spells that fact out. Couple that with how much responsibility was riding on him because this person was FROM HIS BLOODLINE, you know like the former most bloodthirsty motherfucker in the galaxy, and of course you get an instinctive "holy fucking shit" moment from the guy.
He's called out on it. He realizes it himself. He owns up to it. Does he do the right thing by essentially running away? No, he doesn't.
Does he do something understandable by essentially running away? Yes he does.
Does he learn that running away, and the way he acted was complete bullshit? Yes, he does.
What's the problem again?
He's called out on it. He realizes it himself. He owns up to it. Does he do the right thing by essentially running away? No, he doesn't.
Does he do something understandable by essentially running away? Yes he does.
Does he learn that running away, and the way he acted was complete bullshit? Yes, he does.
What's the problem again?
Problem is for a lot of people in the fandom and what has been boil down as pointed out by you is "not may Luke! eU! 30 years of Fanfic!"
Doesn't bother me though
Well one thing is for sure, Hamill's screen presence as Luke truly commands the screen on this one. I'm fact he practically dwarfs everyone else in comparison, the other new actors got one hell of a task to catching up to that kind of commanding screen charisma, none of them even remotely close.
And yet to me these new characters have oodles and poodles of charisma.... Rey, Kylo, Poe, Finn and Rose are incredibly dynamic.
You are told this
I think what a lot of people didn't like about the scriptwriting in TLJ is that things are told, not shown. Particularly when the script takes a lot of left turns, prioritizing surprises. The audience reaches a point where we are not ready to believe what we are told
The differences in opinion on TLJ largely come from those who are happy being told things, and those who want to be shown them. I for one, would've found it much more impactful if we saw what Luke was so scared of about Kylo. It makes things harder that what we as the audience see in Kylo is an unfocused, almost scared child, who isn't even sure himself which side he wants to end up on
We are the Poe Damerons. We do not like being told "there's a plan, sit back, and deal with it". We want to be shown. The movie tells us we will just make things worse if we look for answers, but the movie has a vested interest in telling us that, and isn't very convincing
There's nothing hard to understand about it. It's just that comes off a PT level fan fic nonsense.
"Sure I faced Darth Vader and starred down the Emperor, but what I saw here was omega level bad. Sure my nephew hasn't done anything but that was scarrrrryyyy!"
Eesh
Who did Luke learn from?
Obi-Wan and Yoda... What did they do in the face of the Empire taking over.... Hide... Luke was only doing what he was taught.
Obi-Wan and Yoda... What did they do in the face of the Empire taking over.... Hide... Luke was only doing what he was taught.
I just wish he didn't die.
What did Luke, Han and Leia fight for when 30 years later they are back at square one? To top it off, Leia sees her son become a murderer, Han is killed by his son and Luke becomes a hermit.
It's bleak as ****, really dark. After what they did they deserved so much more, a hero's rest.
In 30 years time will Rey, Finn and Poe get killed off when The Empire rises again or will they get the rest they deserve?
Lol I didn't even read what you guys are arguing and I just posted about Hamill's charisma as it is the first thing I think of after I got out of bed...
And I interjected right in the middle of charisma talk, lol wtf.
And I interjected right in the middle of charisma talk, lol wtf.
All I can say is after TFA, Rey/Finn/Kylo/Poe became some of my favorite movie characters of the decade,
After TLJ I couldn't care less about a single one of them
It made me not care about some of my favorite characters of the last 10 years, and thats something I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive it for
Doesn't he say he messed up because he thought himself a legend? He could teach kids because he was Luke Skywalker. The Legend. Reinforcing his point that the Jedi were flawed and taken down by their hubris.
This
Unless I google it I still have problems naming a good chunk of the Rogue One characters that wasn't already in OT
Oh right, I promised you to pay attention to it during my third viewing:
Rose doesn't tell Finn about the importance of her necklace. But he sees her cry while holding it the first time he sees her, and watches her fidget when DJ asks for it. I guess we're meant to assume that he picked up on it being important. That's about all he says to DJ when asking for it back.
Look at reality. What did everyone die for in WW2, when barely 70 years later literal Nazis are taking over again?
It just means that, after killing the Emperor, the Republic didn't do a good enough job at mopping up Empire remnants. Killing the leader usually doesn't mean ending his regime or legacy.
Come on. Honestly you think Poe and Rose have oodles of dynamic personality? Honestly?
I love Oscar Issac but Poe has been dullsville from the get go in TFA.
Just got out of my second viewing. Paid for the in-laws to watch it this time.
I liked TLJ even better this time. I feel confident in saying TLJ is in my Top 3 SW movies.
I thought the Rey & Ben interactions were well done. I also liked how Rey wasn't automatically the best & most powerful Force user in every scenario.
I liked TLJ even better this time. I feel confident in saying TLJ is in my Top 3 SW movies.
I thought the Rey & Ben interactions were well done. I also liked how Rey wasn't automatically the best & most powerful Force user in every scenario.
Is it not possible that Luke foresaw a future with Ben being(equal to or) worse than Vader? Billions dying and all that Dark side stuff. Don't see why that's not scary to someone like Luke, after everything he's worked for he'll see another Skywalker commit such acts again but with more ferocity.
I can understand why he'd slip at that moment, nothing fan-fiction about it.
Well, the difference here isn't angry, he's depressed and broken.
But I see your point, even if I don't agree with it. Ultimately, I still maintain that it isn't that different from Obiwan just telling us about obscure references that aren't fully explained. Anakin fought in the clone wars, Darth Vader was a Jedi that turned to the dark side, the Jedi order fell under him. These things were explained in a few lines and while people were definitely curious about seeing htose events unfold, the mystery in the end proved to be far better than the truth.
Ultimately, I can believe that shit went down. Afterall, it's not like we aren't shown other deteriorations. Han well back into his old ways, the first order rose up, there came about a new dark lord, etc. If can believe a story exists that tells you all that went down to get the characters to where they are today, I suggest that you imagine it, like we were asked to imagine Darth Vader's fall.
For me, that's enough. I can't speak to anyone esle.
Dude Oscar Isacc was so good as Poe they unkilled him during TFA production.... Fuck yes I think they are dynamic.
They even mix screams and sounds of destruction into the scene where Luke tries to read Ben. It's *very* obvious that there's some demented shit in that boy.
And I have trouble naming anyone in Schindler's list or citizen Kane or inception. I guess they must be bad movies.
I mean was Luke wrong to freak out?... Ben's response to seeing Luke's lightsaber was to kill a bunch of Luke's students (possibly some of them children?) and raze the whole thing to the ground....
He could have just called Mom.
He could have just called Mom.
I wonder if the box office will suffer with no possibility of luke in anything more than a 1 minute ghost scene in the next film.
I dont think these characters have captured audiences the way the original characters did amd this film already dropped some cash despite being reviewed a lot better than TFA.
I dont think these characters have captured audiences the way the original characters did amd this film already dropped some cash despite being reviewed a lot better than TFA.
Yeah, forgot to mention the sound clues, he had his hand raised just thinking about it.
T'was pretty obvious that he'd been planning that shit anyway.
I'm also pretty certain, by now, that the shot with Kylo and his Knights of Ren, if we ever return to it, was a flash forward.
What he's standing in, looks a lot like Rebel soldiers, definitely not Jedi pupils.
Doesn't the line follows say something like "he would kill everything dear to me"?
Are you smoking rock? This film didn't even remotely review a lot better than TFA, I'm not even aware of it having been reviewed better period
The part about a threat even greater than the Emperor is what comes off fan fic to me.
But Yoda telling us "always in motion the future is" or whatever makes it hard to believe Luke would be so shaken by a mere vision.
From a certain point of view...
Good job taking my point and twisting it
Oh yeah, that's totally my speculation - I was poiting out the trajectory that was set with ROTJ.
No, of course, TLJ TELLS us that he actually didn't conquer that flaw. But that's all I am saying. I would be on board with any direction, if it was properly handled, which, in my opinion, it was not.
We're left with a triumphant hero at the end of ROTJ, freshly after conquering his weakness and then jump to him being broken 30+ years later; for this to work, his downfall should've been more fleshed out. To confound the matter, this isn't even Luke's story, it's Rey's and Kylo's, so we don't get the crucial Luke - Kylo interactions. Even after finding his groove back via Yoda, Luke comes of as callous and uncaring about his nephew. And this is because, even if we accept he had his moment of weakness, that moment passed. The Luke we know, would have dig out from the ruble and go after Kylo/Snoke. For him not to do this, he would have to change a lot more thant just having a moment of weakness - and for that, we would have to see more.
With the decision to restart the whole conflict to Empire vs. Rebels and to shit all over the lives of our 3 main characters (Luke, a broken man, failed teacher, lost his family and students and the Jedi Order and his whole life purpose; Han and Leia splitting, Leia losing her position in the post-war order, having to fight the never ending fight after losing her son to the dark side, Han, also losing his son, demoted, even losing his ship, relegated to hauling some stupid cargo for small fry criminials) comes off as extremely nihilistic, though I think unintentionally. It's not even on-pause, as you mention above, its regression or diminishment for our characters whose lives amounted to nothing.
I've shared my thoughts on his character flaw above.
And you've mentioning good storytelling. I never implied he should start where we left off, just that this development is out of left field. Bitter, old and disillusioned, this would better fit Obi-Wan after ROTS, at least how that movie went, not Luke after ROTJ.
And finally, if you've commited yourself to this arc, stick to it. The scene on Crait, with Luke's projection, were he redeems himself, is both, very derivative of Obi-Wan in Ep. 4, while simultaneously, in the end, giving us - and the Galaxy - Luke the legend. It's a lot of screen time that amounts to very little. You reset a character's progress at the start of the movie to seemingly end where you started. As I mentioned before, it's much ado about nothing; you can consider broken Luke as original, but his end is derivative; there were more interesting, more daring directions Johnson could've taken Luke, but didn't. Probably because the mandate is to phase out the OT characters.
As to the resetting of character arcs, Johnson does this alot (Finn has to re-learn what courage is, Rey has to relearn to not focus on her past, Kylo has to decide if he's cool enough for the dark side), which along with the reused plot point from the OT and the uniteresting space chase and uneventful Canto Bight sequence create a movie that is 2h 31 minutes long, but during which not much happens.
Ooh. I need to go to bed, have fun tearing into my arguments, all ;)
damn you just ruined the ST's big twist. Shamelessly stolen from Lost.
It would make sense, though, I doubt they all had their armor and lightsabers at luke's academy.
Yes, he does says that. It's from the vision he has about him, before checking his thoughts on the hut.
Understood, but the distinction here is similar to the distinction between the need for a backstory to Snoke vs. the Emperor
The character Obiwan tells us about in the OT is not a character we are familiar with. Thus, we will accept whatever we are told. The idea that Anakin would turn to the dark side does not break the narrative for the viewer. We do not need to know why he turned or anything more about him, because we do not have an established understanding of who he is which is contradicted by new information. Obi-wan is building that character as he tells his story
It all goes back to what you as a viewer feel is necessary to drive a change in that established narrative. Some people will be happy with the change, others will need more convincing
The force awakens metacritic: 81
The last Jedi Metacritic: 86 (far too high imo but the fact remains)
Haha thanks. Still not entirely convinced about the soundness of that scene, but eh, whatever.
My charismatic ranking for the new main characters:
Kylo >>>>>>> Rey >>> Poe >> Finn >>>>>>>>>>> Rose (sorry excelsior, hahaha)
None of them even remotely close to Hamill though.
Thats 1 site,
on rotten tomatoes
TFA = 8.2
TLJ = 8.1
Metacritic has 54 reviews for TFA while RT has 375
Metacritic also has 54 reviews for TLJ while RT has 346
So yea, metacritic is missing soooo many reviews from critics
This is a good point. The defenders are telling us over and over that but it doesn't matter. The trigger for this entire trilogy, and the reason the lives of the original big three start VII already in ruins... "Trust us, this super dark shit is fucking Kylo over, and Snoke did it." What did he do? How did he seduce him? What did Luke sense exactly? Why did it scare the shit out of him to such a degree?
Doesn't matter apparently. None of that matters. Just a plot device that doesn't need to be explored, right?
And for the thousandth time, you can't compare it to the situation at the outset of the OT. There WAS no Star Wars universe at that time All we had was George Lucas flying by the seat of his pants. State of the galaxy, Palpatine's rise, no, we weren't walked through all that at the time. But that doesn't mean it's an apples to apples comparison to say none of that is needed here either.
Yup, and we know how reasonable Luke is when that's in the room. Irony is, he pushed him to do it even more, now.
That, and, Kylo wouldn't have his new Saber there. Given the current canon as per the Vader ongioing comic book, he would have to corrupt a Jedi'a saber crystal in order to get a red crystal, my theory on that is that it's either Luke's, or some other pupil's. Probably won't be expanded on until some new EU stuff.
He's been for a while, really. :/
I found it pretty sound, actually, Finn is the kinda guy to pick up on things like that.
I'd put Rose at the same spot as Finn in your ranking, and Poe above Rey, but other than that it makes sense.
I honestly had no idea so many people are into Poe. Seriously. Lol
His best scenes are with Finn and that's Boyega doing the heavy lifting.
He is a doorknob on his own and the scenes with his superiors and such here.
That crank call is so cringeworthy, mostly because of the writing but he also doesn't have the chops for it either.
Oh gosh, I just remembered, he drops the super on the nose "as long as there's still light" line too doesn't he? Pewwww