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Hellshy

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,172
You know, I don't know why I thought that, looking over the scene again, I think she is probably Romulan. There was something that stood out to make me think that but I can't see what it was...

edit: oh it was the 'She's been a useful ally to us for a very long time I can't have her turning on us' in the very next scene with the two Romulans.

I questioned that part too, but then I came to the conclusion that she must have meant an ally within the ranks of the romulan secret cabal . The luitenant fears the commodore turning on them, the them in this context is just the luitenant and her brother not the secret agency.

None of that means the commodore is a romulan or a vulcan, I just dont think we have enough info to go by yet to know how this agency is structured or works.
 

Grimsen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,275
Would the borg even qualify as AI? They're a shared consciousness, but they're basically enhanced organics, not androids.


Maybe the teachings of Surak actually come from an AI, and that's what caused the vulcan schism.
 
Last edited:

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,714
Seems logical that rather than chasing down synths, they'd be attempting to influence the direction of technological research as much as they possibly could. Within the Romulan Star Empire that'd be effective total control and a ban on AI research. Outside the Star Empire, it might mean infiltrating scientific communities and fomenting scepticism over AI and sabotaging any research efforts, causing them to fail. From time to time they might need their synth death squads.

That could also explain why Soong, despite being clearly really good at AI, somehow got disgraced enough to have to leave the Federation and work by himself on an obscure colony.

Okay, I'd buy this. I also like the theory someone floated earlier in the thread about the "original sin" the secret society has been trying to cover up. If Picard can figure out a compelling backstory I'd be willing to forgive the initial clunkiness.
 

Hellshy

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,172
Would the borg even qualify as AI? They're a shared consciousness, but they're basically enhanced organics, not androids.

Wasnt there a TNG episode where Lore started his own Borg "collective" ? Maybe an ancient AI is responsible for the rise of the borg.

The borg have always been a mystery to me in some ways. A example is what exactly is the role of the queen, why and how does she always come back from the dead? Also was there ever an origin story for them in any media?
 

Grimsen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,275
Wasnt there a TNG episode where Lore started his own Borg "collective" ? Maybe an ancient AI is responsible for the rise of the borg.

The borg have always been a mystery to me in some ways. A example is what exactly is the role of the queen, why and how does she always come back from the dead? Also was there ever an origin story for them in any media?

A few, but none of them are official AFAIK. The one where an alien species worshipped VGER is the only one that comes to mind.
 

EarlGreyHot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,379
I for one hope the exact origins of the Borg remains a mystery

Not everything in Star Trek has to be explained (like Q)
 

Mindwipe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,259
London
Wasnt there a TNG episode where Lore started his own Borg "collective" ? Maybe an ancient AI is responsible for the rise of the borg.

The borg have always been a mystery to me in some ways. A example is what exactly is the role of the queen, why and how does she always come back from the dead? Also was there ever an origin story for them in any media?

There was definitely one in the books.

It was fucking awful.
 

Catsygreen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,363
Like Enabran Tain, I still think Tal Shiar is just bad. Not as effective as the Obsidian Order.

Anyway, the episode is interesting but the pacing is weird, and what they're doing to the Federation... no, sorry, I don't like it. And the Mars intro sequence is anti-Star Trek at its finest. It's like a clip from Expanse or Babylon 5... That said, I like that we're learning more about the Romulans.
 

Proteus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,985
Toronto
Wasnt there a TNG episode where Lore started his own Borg "collective" ? Maybe an ancient AI is responsible for the rise of the borg.

The borg have always been a mystery to me in some ways. A example is what exactly is the role of the queen, why and how does she always come back from the dead? Also was there ever an origin story for them in any media?
I feel like the VGER stuff is the closest we've gotten to an origin but I have always thought it was a terrible idea. I love the VGER concept as a standalone entity in The Motion Picture.

Also, my assumption is that upon a Borg Queen's death she is simply restored from a backup in another body somewhere else in the collective.
 

Eoin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,104
Would the borg even qualify as AI? They're a shared consciousness, but they're basically enhanced organics, not androids.

Maybe the teachings of Surak actually come from an AI, and that's what caused the vulcan schism.
The Borg would probably be classed as some kind of hybrid intelligence - definitely not AI, but equally definitely not standard organic/biological intelligence. However I think AI, or something very similar to it, would be a reasonable precursor technology for whatever the Borg are. If there were an Alpha Quadrant committee on what kind of research to limit to prevent another Borg, I think AI would be right up there.

Okay, I'd buy this. I also like the theory someone floated earlier in the thread about the "original sin" the secret society has been trying to cover up. If Picard can figure out a compelling backstory I'd be willing to forgive the initial clunkiness.
That's a backstory that I can imagine being interesting, but seems like it'd be really easy to mess up, so I'm a bit wary about the inevitable big reveal of the reason for the existence of this super-duper secret Romulan squad.

The borg have always been a mystery to me in some ways. A example is what exactly is the role of the queen, why and how does she always come back from the dead? Also was there ever an origin story for them in any media?
No origin story, Voyager gave the tiniest bit of their history (seemingly about a thousand years before the series, the Borg were confined to a handful of systems), but I don't think that was presented as totally reliable information. I think the presumption has always been that they didn't really need an origin story since it'd be something like "some careless society kept developing technology and integrating it more and more into their societies and eventually their bodies without fully understanding it, and this is the end result, so don't be so careless, twentieth century humans".

(20th century humans learned the following lessons from this: no lessons).

I assume that the Queen is just a cloud save and that when she's killed, she doesn't really come back to life, she just gets insta-replaced by another Queen who gets the last backup downloaded into her brain.
 

Deleted member 135

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,682
I still think that either the Romulans or the Vulcans are bio-androids. One created by the other, rebelled, started a nuclear war, and one of them fled the planet.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,050
Also just realised that in the scene when Picard visits the CnC, there's a brief, blurry glimpse of the local political map - seems to confirm the general trend of Romulans being 'north east' of the Federation, while the Klingons are 'south west' (as Discovery had affirmed), with Cardassians (and someone else, possibly Ferengi) in the 'west' of the area. Neat to see that stuff worked in.
 

Hellshy

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,172
VGER? It's the probe from The Motion Picture.

Oh ok. It has been awhile since I watched the first movie. I do remember a probe though.

I for one hope the exact origins of the Borg remains a mystery

Not everything in Star Trek has to be explained (like Q)

Yeah to be honest unlike say the others or white walkers from asoiaf I never felt like we needed an answer about the borg origins. It would be interesting if some well but from the sounds of it they botched things with Q.

Voyager was always the one series I could never get into. I started watching it recently why I waited for picard to air and got to the begging of season 7.i dont remember seeing an episode that explains Qs origins but to be fair I fall asleep watching often lol.

I started trek shows with ds9 and just got more engrossed as it went and then the samething happened when I moved over to TNG. Voyager just never got its hooks in me.
 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,257
Wasnt there a TNG episode where Lore started his own Borg "collective" ? Maybe an ancient AI is responsible for the rise of the borg.

The borg have always been a mystery to me in some ways. A example is what exactly is the role of the queen, why and how does she always come back from the dead? Also was there ever an origin story for them in any media?
A few, but none of them are official AFAIK. The one where an alien species worshipped VGER is the only one that comes to mind.
The Borg would probably be classed as some kind of hybrid intelligence - definitely not AI, but equally definitely not standard organic/biological intelligence. However I think AI, or something very similar to it, would be a reasonable precursor technology for whatever the Borg are. If there were an Alpha Quadrant committee on what kind of research to limit to prevent another Borg, I think AI would be right up there.


That's a backstory that I can imagine being interesting, but seems like it'd be really easy to mess up, so I'm a bit wary about the inevitable big reveal of the reason for the existence of this super-duper secret Romulan squad.


No origin story, Voyager gave the tiniest bit of their history (seemingly about a thousand years before the series, the Borg were confined to a handful of systems), but I don't think that was presented as totally reliable information. I think the presumption has always been that they didn't really need an origin story since it'd be something like "some careless society kept developing technology and integrating it more and more into their societies and eventually their bodies without fully understanding it, and this is the end result, so don't be so careless, twentieth century humans".

(20th century humans learned the following lessons from this: no lessons).

I assume that the Queen is just a cloud save and that when she's killed, she doesn't really come back to life, she just gets insta-replaced by another Queen who gets the last backup downloaded into her brain.

There was also a script for a Voyager episode that never got used that had the origin of the Borg as the failed experiment of a Delta Quadrant species. They developed nanobots that were only supposed to infect any opposing species and make them non-hostile but things got a little bit out of control and yeah... I'm kind of glad they didn't use that one.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,687
So these Romulans are anti AI and yet Starfleet has been using ships with AI a step away from self awareness that can also create sentient holograms, but they never cared because?

and speaking of holograms, why would the federation need android labourers when they already have holograms doing that?
 

Hellshy

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,172
There was also a script for a Voyager episode that never got used that had the origin of the Borg as the failed experiment of a Delta Quadrant species. They developed nanobots that were only supposed to infect any opposing species and make them non-hostile but things got a little bit out of control and yeah... I'm kind of glad they didn't use that one.

Yeah that doesnt sound very good at all.
The Borg would probably be classed as some kind of hybrid intelligence - definitely not AI, but equally definitely not standard organic/biological intelligence. However I think AI, or something very similar to it, would be a reasonable precursor technology for whatever the Borg are. If there were an Alpha Quadrant committee on what kind of research to limit to prevent another Borg, I think AI would be right up there.


That's a backstory that I can imagine being interesting, but seems like it'd be really easy to mess up, so I'm a bit wary about the inevitable big reveal of the reason for the existence of this super-duper secret Romulan squad.


No origin story, Voyager gave the tiniest bit of their history (seemingly about a thousand years before the series, the Borg were confined to a handful of systems), but I don't think that was presented as totally reliable information. I think the presumption has always been that they didn't really need an origin story since it'd be something like "some careless society kept developing technology and integrating it more and more into their societies and eventually their bodies without fully understanding it, and this is the end result, so don't be so careless, twentieth century humans".

(20th century humans learned the following lessons from this: no lessons).

I assume that the Queen is just a cloud save and that when she's killed, she doesn't really come back to life, she just gets insta-replaced by another Queen who gets the last backup downloaded into her brain.

The Queen being a cloud save makes sense and is what I kinda figured but if they have clone tech why is she the only one they clone especially since so many borg are "defective" in their eyes?
I assume she is cloned since they had the same actress play her in Voyager and she looks an awful lot like the actress from first contact. She could always really be an organic AI no?
 

Grimsen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,275
So these Romulans are anti AI and yet Starfleet has been using ships with AI a step away from self awareness that can also create sentient holograms, but they never cared because?

I guess you can bundle the hatred of AI to their list of reasons for being at war with the Federation.

and speaking of holograms, why would the federation need android labourers when they already have holograms doing that?

Autonomy? Having holo emitters on a planet might be difficult? Who knows. It's one hell of a nitpick, though.
 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,257
Yeah that doesnt sound very good at all.


The Queen being a cloud save makes sense and is what I kinda figured but if they have clone tech why is she the only one they clone especially since so many borg are "defective" in their eyes?
I assume she is cloned since they had the same actress play her in Voyager and she looks an awful lot like the actress from first contact. She could always really be an organic AI no?

I sadly can't find the script anymore or I would link it.
 

Mr. Pointy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,141
I still think that either the Romulans or the Vulcans are bio-androids. One created by the other, rebelled, started a nuclear war, and one of them fled the planet.


Here's a question, which would be better - Ancient Vulcans creating the Borg, or the Borg origin from Gary Whitta's 'Origin Of The Species' spec script?
 

Eoin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,104
There was also a script for a Voyager episode that never got used that had the origin of the Borg as the failed experiment of a Delta Quadrant species. They developed nanobots that were only supposed to infect any opposing species and make them non-hostile but things got a little bit out of control and yeah... I'm kind of glad they didn't use that one.
Yeah that sounds awful. Origin story of the galaxy's most dangerous threat (arguably) and it's just a standard science-gone-wrong episode of the week. I'm kind of pleasantly surprised Voyager's creative team was able to see the problems with that. They didn't show a whole lot of restraint for other Borg stories.

The Queen being a cloud save makes sense and is what I kinda figured but if they have clone tech why is she the only one they clone especially since so many borg are "defective" in their eyes?
I assume she is cloned since they had the same actress play her in Voyager and she looks an awful lot like the actress from first contact. She could always really be an organic AI no?
I don't know if she's cloned. The Borg Queen in Voyager's final episode is indeed the same person who was in First Contact, but the Borg Queen in other episodes is a different person. In one Voyager episode the Queen, talking to a child, says "I was about your age when I was assimilated". That doesn't rule out a cloning process, but it'd have to be a very strange process - a process where a non-Borg clone was created and developed and then assimilated. It seems more likely that they can just promote drones to Queen based on need and ability.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,687
I guess you can bundle the hatred of AI to their list of reasons for being at war with the Federation.



Autonomy? Having holo emitters on a planet might be difficult? Who knows. It's one hell of a nitpick, though.
Eh, not so much a nitpick as 'wait what happened to holographic labour?'. Seems less efficient to build an artificial life form when you can just make a hologram that can do the same thing. I mean, the hologram path of AI seemed like it had more potential for advanced AI than a 'solid' path like androids , which are limited to their physical brains.

After Voyager returned and the Doctor became more common knowledge within research fields, would androids like Data really be looked at with much enthusiasm anymore compared to the exponential potential of holograms?
 

Grimsen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,275
Eh, not so much a nitpick as 'wait what happened to holographic labour?'. Seems less efficient to build an artificial life form when you can just make a hologram that can do the same thing. I mean, the hologram path of AI seemed like it had more potential for advanced AI than a 'solid' path like androids , which are limited to their physical brains.

After Voyager returned and the Doctor became more common knowledge within research fields, would androids like Data really be looked at with much enthusiasm anymore compared to the exponential potential of holograms?

The portable holo emitter was a unique piece of tech from the future.

If there ever was a holographic infrastructure big enough for holograms to walk about on a planet, why stop at holographic robots? They could have holographic buildings, vehicles, etc.
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
Yeah that sounds awful. Origin story of the galaxy's most dangerous threat (arguably) and it's just a standard science-gone-wrong episode of the week. I'm kind of pleasantly surprised Voyager's creative team was able to see the problems with that. They didn't show a whole lot of restraint for other Borg stories.


I don't know if she's cloned. The Borg Queen in Voyager's final episode is indeed the same person who was in First Contact, but the Borg Queen in other episodes is a different person. In one Voyager episode the Queen, talking to a child, says "I was about your age when I was assimilated". That doesn't rule out a cloning process, but it'd have to be a very strange process - a process where a non-Borg clone was created and developed and then assimilated. It seems more likely that they can just promote drones to Queen based on need and ability.

I liked this take on it from Legacy
 

wow_bob_wow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
213
The biggest problem with the show is that I don't care about the new characters. Outside of Daj, I couldn't name one. The second biggest problem is the exposition dump scenes where all that's happening is exposition dumps.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,687
The portable holo emitter was a unique piece of tech from the future.

If there ever was a holographic infrastructure big enough for holograms to walk about on a planet why stop there, why stop at holographic robots? They could have holographic buildings, vehicles, etc.
They did have emitters capable of projecting other versions of the Doctor as labour on asteroids or mining colonies or whatever.

I don't think it's necessarily unlikely that the mobile emitter could be figured out and replicated for general use.
 

Hellshy

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,172
Yeah that sounds awful. Origin story of the galaxy's most dangerous threat (arguably) and it's just a standard science-gone-wrong episode of the week. I'm kind of pleasantly surprised Voyager's creative team was able to see the problems with that. They didn't show a whole lot of restraint for other Borg stories.


I don't know if she's cloned. The Borg Queen in Voyager's final episode is indeed the same person who was in First Contact, but the Borg Queen in other episodes is a different person. In one Voyager episode the Queen, talking to a child, says "I was about your age when I was assimilated". That doesn't rule out a cloning process, but it'd have to be a very strange process - a process where a non-Borg clone was created and developed and then assimilated. It seems more likely that they can just promote drones to Queen based on need and ability.

I havent seen the final episode of voyager yet. I didnt know the actress from the movie made a return. The othe actress does appear in an episode in season 5 or beggining of season 6 and is killed, but then the same actress turns up again at the end of season 6. If they arent clones or some kind of organic AI then it's very confusing and unnecessary to use the same actresses to play characters that are supposed to be different queens.
The little backstory about her being assimilation could be a false implanted memory much like what is going on with datas daughters. It could also just be a lie.
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,294
1. I do think Lore is involved in the creation of the Daughters and the Mars Attacks.

2. So what happened to all the other races in the Romulan empire, the ones that were under their control given how vast the Empire was before the collapse. My brother speculated that something similar to the fall of the Soviet Union happened and the was a major independent movement with all the other races and the reamining bases unable to stop them because of the lack of incoming resources and the resources they did have being diverted to the rescue effort. Still not good for the Remans of course. Also likely a case of Sci-Fi writers have no sense of scale.
 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,257
Yeah that sounds awful. Origin story of the galaxy's most dangerous threat (arguably) and it's just a standard science-gone-wrong episode of the week. I'm kind of pleasantly surprised Voyager's creative team was able to see the problems with that. They didn't show a whole lot of restraint for other Borg stories.

Yeah I agree, I like when there's a bit of mystery to the Borg.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,050
1. I do think Lore is involved in the creation of the Daughters and the Mars Attacks.

2. So what happened to all the other races in the Romulan empire, the ones that were under their control given how vast the Empire was before the collapse. My brother speculated that something similar to the fall of the Soviet Union happened and the was a major independent movement with all the other races and the reamining bases unable to stop them because of the lack of incoming resources and the resources they did have being diverted to the rescue effort. Still not good for the Remans of course. Also likely a case of Sci-Fi writers have no sense of scale.

The problem in 2 is that the franchise has never really depicted what other species and subjects are in the Romulan Empire, at least in live action media. It would have to either be invented like in the new Countdown comic, lifted from the video games (in which case you basically get the Romulans but with a brown/orange paintjob), or... just the Remans.
 

deimosmasque

Ugly, Queer, Gender-Fluid, Drive-In Mutant, yes?
Moderator
Apr 22, 2018
14,285
Tampa, Fl
I don't know, swearing is kind of established as not common place, though. Star Trek 4 makes a point of language in the 80s being "colorful" and Spock not knowing how to probably use the vocabulary. https://youtu.be/JfCpDQKHcUw

Not common place no. But that doesnt mean that it doesn't exist. And Spock doesn't understand it because he's in full Vulcan mode and has to even be reminded that he has lied in the past.

In the Next Gen Era both Picard and Data have said shit and Chief O'Brien says Balls like it's going out of style so it does happen.
 

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
The Borg origins in the novels I read were awful, and likewise in the same novels they literally Deus ex machina the Borg away. And also brought back Data. Also Troy and Riker had a baby. That series was like the biggest stupidest collection of post TNG fanfic....
 

Huey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,266
Boy not really enjoying this at all so far. I mean, I was biased against it from the outset given what I love about Star Trek is the "trek" aspect ie. serial format of a new challenge/topic/subject per episode, as opposed to serialized drama - but I'm just not really feeling any of the characters outside of Jean-Luc. Also,
the handling of Starfleet just seems so contrary to Roddenberry's vision. Not sure how much that should matter anymore, but it definitely shouldn't be thrown away for the sake of manufacturing some easy villains.

Obviously it's early days and I'll give it a chance, but as someone who definitely didn't enjoy Discovery either, I'm getting similar feels here. Seems more in line with the Abrams films than any of the shows.
 

Paganmoon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,586
Can't believe there are people here genuinely annoyed/pissed off at the use of swear words, even going as far as thinking there's an ulterior motive for it's use?

I can't wait for that to die down/be forgotten so we can see people being annoyed at Picard dissing Science Fiction, as it's a direct attack by the showrunners on the fan base which they apparently hate.

What's the rules on spoilers? tagged until it's aired in Europe, which means ok for open discussion from Fridays?
 

Fuzzy

Completely non-threatening
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,162
Toronto
What's the rules on spoilers? tagged until it's aired in Europe, which means ok for open discussion from Fridays?
As soon as it drops in its country of origin (in this case on CBSAA in the US) like every other weekly show here on Era.

Spoiler Policy

Although the voting skewed more towards a 24 hour spoiler policy, more people commenting in the thread were vocal towards following the precedent from other shows where spoilers are allowed as soon as the episode drops, so I think we'll go with that. If it becomes a problem in the future we can revisit.
 

Deleted member 4552

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,570
I don't like the cursing and I'm a person who curses like a sailor.

I've been banned many times from here and a lot of those posts are a mod misunderstanding my voice because I happen to curse (get Irish mods please thx).

However in Star Trek, cursing is handled with deft touch of a trump handshake.


The scene with Picard and the Admiral was awful.
It felt like, I'm a big boy now.

It doesn't help that the actors didn't get a sense of chemistry.

A longer scene with some friendly chat, some subtle implied barbs back an forth, then the direct question, then the direct response would have worked.

Even at that the tone was all wrong.
It should be exasperation not anger.

The scene from Discover was just a bit lame when she uttered but it was the reaction, that turns it into utter cringe.

Data saying "Shit" in Generations was (a bit Ott) but a cheeky wink to the audience and one that got a big reception, it was also relevant to the plot.

Back to ST:Picard the cursing here feels like the over use of CG, the uncessary dynamic camera in certain scenes, it's feels like it's shouting "This is Star Trek in the Netflix age isn't it cool".

Knock it down a notch, it breaks the suspension of disbelief when I can feel the writers intention so clearly.

It's also why the Irish Romulan is fine because her "cheeky feckers" is understated subtle and natural.

The only part that's weird for me is seeing Romulans in more relaxed roles, I'm used to seeing the military form.

Any good TNG eps with This side of Romulans??
 

Rad Bandolar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,036
SoCal
I questioned that part too, but then I came to the conclusion that she must have meant an ally within the ranks of the romulan secret cabal . The luitenant fears the commodore turning on them, the them in this context is just the luitenant and her brother not the secret agency.

None of that means the commodore is a romulan or a vulcan, I just dont think we have enough info to go by yet to know how this agency is structured or works.
I think the implication is that the Commodore is someone whom the Romulans have turned, but isn't Romulan herself (just a Vulcan). She probably thinks that doing so is for "the greater good" or whatever rationalization she's come up with to justify her actions. Similar to how the Russians have corrupted and turned many within the US government to serve their ends.
 

Hellshy

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,172
I think the implication is that the Commodore is someone whom the Romulans have turned, but isn't Romulan herself (just a Vulcan). She probably thinks that doing so is for "the greater good" or whatever rationalization she's come up with to justify her actions. Similar to how the Russians have corrupted and turned many within the US government to serve their ends.

That's certainly very plausible but if the luitenant is part of the romulan secret police you would think the relationship dynamics between those two characters would be different . The commodore seemed to be coming from a higher authority within the group and not just the federation.