it may be nicer than other places but it still needs a lot of work before we can feel comfortable being here. And I agree! Gamers are some of the worst in terms of attitude and behavior to the point where the word is such a joke and the fact that thuggery was such a long-running joke when capcom made that announcement years ago. One of the biggest things we need to deal with is brand loyalty and how toxic that shit is. Any steam vs Epic thread is a cesspit and a lot of steam era(and when I say steam era I'm specifically referring to brand loyalty)is really messed up. I am calling it out now because I am just tired of it and want people to realize that their actions have consequences and their behavior is not ok in a group space. like I'm afraid this threads relevance will last a long time as more and more incidents pop up that we end up needing to have to take care of again and again.As someone who came from GameFAQs forums way back in the day, this place legitimately felt like such a breath of fresh air when I finally switched to it. And although I know I am often pretty dense about many of the issues brought up by topics in the OP, I am slowly learning and doing my best to improve, and thanks for bringing a lot of this to my attention more.
However, the sad thing is that while we here still clearly have a long way to go, this forum STILL feels like an absolute bastion compared to basically anywhere else on the internet I've ever been that offers gaming discussion. I feel like gaming, in general, is just so riddled with toxicity and casual bigotry and such that it's going to take a very long time to improve the community as a whole. Things like all of the massive amounts of sexual misconduct stories that recently broke are just yet another example of how broken the industry is in so many ways.
Since your willing to listen just want to drop in a reply to say I am not judging you nor wouldn't tell you how to spend your money or to feel bad for it, but the reason some such as I will not support CD Projekt (and that's not just cyberpunk, that also applies to all their games and unfortunately considering their stances purely on the tech side such as no DRM I will not purchase from GOG) is this isn't a one time incident, it's just the latest that brings the total to at least six and from different branches with the only fallout being one firing along with the firing being accompanied by (and this is one of the incidents I personally count) an apology of the " We are sorry if you were offended" non apology that takes no responsibility and pushes the blame to the offended for being offended as if it happened in a vacuum.Coming into this as a straight white cis man, I'm very much the exact demographic that can easily overlook or disregard these issues as they don't have any bearing on my identity. I think it is very easy for people with my background to dismiss these issues simply because, well, they want to enjoy a game and don't want to have to struggle with it. That being said, these are issues that should be discussed and shouldn't be outright dismissed. I think some people take offense and get defensive because they feel like they're being attacked if they like something that someone else wants to look at and grapple with the problematic aspects of. That kind of thinking really shuts down conversations, as we should be willing to at the very least examine something and discuss what might be problematic about it.
Coming from there though, the reason why I tend not to wade into these issues as much, is I have a hard time finding where the line is between "this is problematic and we should discuss it" and "this is problematic to the point where we shouldn't support it at all". I know that line is going to be different for different people. I feel like when I approach those sort of conversations I'm left wondering if I've gone to discuss something problematic when it turns out it should be something that should be completely abandoned and disavowed instead, which causes me to hesitate.
For instance: I know we keep coming back to the Harry Potter issue. That's a game that's going to put money in the pocket of someone who continues to show that they're going to keep using their influential voice to make harmful transphobic remarks. I can understand that argument and can see how it's a clear cut "well, we should stop supporting the brand in any form" idea. Then we get something like the Cyberpunk issue with pronouns I saw recently. They seemed to be trying to include the ability to have any appereance and any gender, but then tied pronouns to the voice you select. I get how that's problematic and an issue. I'm left wondering if that's something that's deeply bad enough to say "hey, we shouldn't support this product at all". Adding to that is the fact that the creator of that brand is a black voice in the tabletop RPG world, which is sorely lacking diversity. So I hesitate to jump in because, one, I've been excited for that game and maybe that part of me that can ignore these issues as they don't affect my identity just wants to pretend it didn't happen, and two, I'm not sure if our discussions should be about how the industry can improve or if they should be about how we shouldn't support the kind of developers who would make these decisions.
I know this all sounds a little babbly, but I'm just trying to work out why these things might happen from other people who share my background and why people like me might not be as willing to enter into these conversations. I'm glad for this thread as it's helped to open my eyes to some of the things that I might have been able to just casually ignore in the past.
This is fair. It's clearly something I would need to look into more and an example of how it's really easy for someone like me to not even realize these issues exist with the company in the first place. I think this goes to my point of how it's really easy for people to just wade into these conversations without realizing what the issues are in the first place, or that they might be bigger issues than what they seem at first. I don't have any solutions on how to make that better, beyond people just being willing to listen and at least engage in a dialogue.Since your willing to listen just want to drop in a reply to say I am not judging you nor wouldn't tell you how to spend your money or to feel bad for it, but the reason some such as I will not support CD Projekt (and that's not just cyberpunk, that also applies to all their games and unfortunately considering their stances purely on the tech side such as no DRM I will not purchase from GOG) is this isn't a one time incident, it's just the latest that brings the total to at least six and from different branches with the only fallout being one firing along with the firing being accompanied by (and this is one of the incidents I personally count) an apology of the " We are sorry if you were offended" non apology that takes no responsibility and pushes the blame to the offended for being offended as if it happened in a vacuum.
As for Pondsmith, beyond not knowing the actual extent or position he has in relation beyond working with them, even if he is on the up and up (and I don't personally know the man so I refuse to make value judgements positive or negative) he doesn't speak for all minorities or the culture of a company he works with not for.
Again not judging you or telling you how to feel or what to do, just laying out the facts as I understand them so that hopefully you get why while I won't tell you what to do or judge you for what you do, I as a trans person which is the minority that has taken the brunt of their incidents I can't in good consciousness support them, which kind of sucks due to GOG and the fact that I am the target audience for a game like cyberpunk on multiple levels from being a pen and paper guy, to liking First Person Perspective roleplaying games, and being a huge fan of the genre who while having read the majority of his work considers Gibson's sprawl trilogy (yes I like and think Mona Lisa Overdrive and Count Zero are just as good and important as Neuromancer) to not only be a landmark and important work of fiction but I read it at a point where I was in my most formative of teenage years and it remains one of the most influential works of fiction on both my creativity and general perspective and outlook on life.
Feels bad.
Then we get something like the Cyberpunk issue with pronouns I saw recently. They seemed to be trying to include the ability to have any appereance and any gender, but then tied pronouns to the voice you select. I get how that's problematic and an issue. I'm left wondering if that's something that's deeply bad enough to say "hey, we shouldn't support this product at all". Adding to that is the fact that the creator of that brand is a black voice in the tabletop RPG world, which is sorely lacking diversity. So I hesitate to jump in because, one, I've been excited for that game and maybe that part of me that can ignore these issues as they don't affect my identity just wants to pretend it didn't happen, and two, I'm not sure if our discussions should be about how the industry can improve or if they should be about how we shouldn't support the kind of developers who would make these decisions.
At least your willing to listen, that alone puts you far ahead of others and I for one at least thank you for that, it's something we could use more of and also everyone do more of.This is fair. It's clearly something I would need to look into more and an example of how it's really easy for someone like me to not even realize these issues exist with the company in the first place. I think this goes to my point of how it's really easy for people to just wade into these conversations without realizing what the issues are in the first place, or that they might be bigger issues than what they seem at first. I don't have any solutions on how to make that better, beyond people just being willing to listen and at least engage in a dialogue.
Thanks for the info.
The serious lack of engagement on this thread is disheartening yeahI'm glad there's a megathread for this. It's disheartening how much is handwaved as "finding reasons to get offended" from people who would rather issues be swept under the rug than to address them.
I mean it's also pinned. But hey at least it's getting a fuckload of views it otherwise wouldn't have gotten. Also kind of gotta pin it since it would have been instantly buried otherwise. Kind of like a slow burn really.The serious lack of engagement on this thread is disheartening yeah
While there are things, that are a huge red flag, in discussions like this, there is usually not a clear line, but a case by case thing. Nuances can make a difference and not everything is easy to compare.i wanted to know your opinion to this: is mario bros with Italian typecasting racisme?
there is a lot going on in europe and US for banning this kind of things. even for less typecastings as mario.
why should apu been banned from Simpsons and mario not? they even talked about comedians that are too offensive. I just wonder where is the line?
just trying to understand this.
I don't necessarily have much to say on this that I haven't said in other threads, and honestly I'm not sure the kind of sweeping change this community needs to actually be considered respectful of minority concerns is even possible. I'm guessing the deleted accounts in this thread agree with me on that - and we'll see more minorities decide this place isn't worth it before any kind of real change gets made.I mean it's also pinned. But hey at least it's getting a fuckload of views it otherwise wouldn't have gotten. Also kind of gotta pin it since it would have been instantly buried otherwise. Kind of like a slow burn really.
Videogames are rarely apolitical and any response to criticism gets turned around as coming from "haters" (brand specific argument) or from a place of self-placed ignorance. The problems (like copaganda, BLM and trans issues among others) will always have that kind of unfortunate response because on the whole that's the type of person video games attract to message boards. ERA leans left, but people often don't want to commit to what that truly means if it involved criticizing digital products.This thread about Spider-Man PS4's copaganda was met with a ton of dismissive "oh, but didn't you know this is fiction?", "you're overthinking a videogame" rhetoric and whataboutism galore. Right before the protests happened. I guess we're suddenly not overthinking things, eh?
Yeah, ResetEra seems to attract the semi-liberal who flirts with progressiveness but when pressured will get angry at "negativity" found in people critically appraising a videogame. See: every Jim Sterling thread where people have to summarize the video because people will just react to the headline and assume he's being a jerk or, god forbid, "tOo nEgaTiVe!!"
I don't necessarily have much to say on this that I haven't said in other threads, and honestly I'm not sure the kind of sweeping change this community needs to actually be considered respectful of minority concerns is even possible. I'm guessing the deleted accounts in this thread agree with me on that - and we'll see more minorities decide this place isn't worth it before any kind of real change gets made.
But I appreciate you making and updating the thread nonetheless.
As long as someone is advocating for change then I think we have a good chance to push change. But if nobody says anything and we let it fester more and more people will up and leave without a fight. The community needs to band together not break apart more. And that includes being more vigilant when people post in bad faith or do not read the op. If your getting dogpiled in a thread for pointing stuff out then say something where everyone can see it. At this point I'm not gonna back down anymore and I won't rest until every minority member on era feels a little safer on here or at least try.This thread about Spider-Man PS4's copaganda was met with a ton of dismissive "oh, but didn't you know this is fiction?", "you're overthinking a videogame" rhetoric and whataboutism galore. Right before the protests happened. I guess we're suddenly not overthinking things, eh?
Yeah, ResetEra seems to attract the semi-liberal who flirts with progressiveness but when pressured will get angry at "negativity" found in people critically appraising a videogame. See: every Jim Sterling thread where people have to summarize the video because people will just react to the headline and assume he's being a jerk or, god forbid, "tOo nEgaTiVe!!"
I don't think it will and I remember that thread and yeah it sucked that it didn't get much traction and kind of the opposite of traction also.That said its still important that even if not many see it(25k views currently) it could have gotten about 9k views which would have killed this thread harder.Sadly I think this valuable thread will mostly go ignored like the stickied thread about the Uyghur, who are suffering a genocide, being used as slave labour to make consoles for all the manufacturers. Everyone was like well I'm not gonna stop buying consoles but this is terrible.
I think it's good to know where the community stands with 25k views and only 6 pages. Even a post about how they support this, would have been helpful.I don't think it will and I remember that thread and yeah it sucked that it didn't get much traction and kind of the opposite of traction also.That said its still important that even if not many see it(25k views currently) it could have gotten about 9k views which would have killed this thread harder.
While there are things, that are a huge red flag, in discussions like this, there is usually not a clear line, but a case by case thing. Nuances can make a difference and not everything is easy to compare.
The question "When X, what about Y?!" may not be the best way to tackle things in general.
As for your example, Apu is a fleshed out character that represents several stereotypes.
How much can you say that about Mario? He is meant to be italian, but what exactly reflects this? He is also meant to be a plumber, what is also super irrelevant for everything happening around him.
The accent of his voice line, that famouse "It's a me, Mario" would be the only thing from the top of my head, one could bring up.
So while one could argue about Mario, he may not be a prime example with top priority.
I'm sure many have already ignored the thread to be honest.I think it's good to know where the community stands with 25k views and only 6 pages. Even a post about how they support this, would have been helpful.
But It's also good to have this sticked on top and the amount of views. Let people know we ain't gonna stand for their nonsense anymore.
I was only talking about the games. There was the Mario Bros Super Show, wasn't there? And I know there is this old weird ass movie.
there is way much more typical Italian voices there than apu did. I don't think you know mario well if you say that "its me mario" the only thing.
there are also a lot of other lines he said that are even worse, much more as apu did. did you also seen the cartoons and the movie? i have to say it's ironic how people are drawing a different line for ones that are even worse. i believe many are moving the line way to far. i can look it up for you and proof it, but I think you need to step back and rethink this.
This is what is wrong, its good example of what i mean.
they should instead help the real racisme and the poor.
but there is way more going wrong than racisme only.
-racisme and slavery was even worse in Brazil, what I didn't knew before.
-gun law is crazy in us and kills way to many people and childeren, this would be my first priority.
-hong kong, nobody is doing something about it.
-sexism
- gays are not accepted on many places
- same for transgender
- Puttin that kill doctors by throwing them out the window because they tell the truth about covid19.
- Mexican border, where US locked up children because the parents are on a run.
What happens in Syria and many other countries?
That is what is wrong in our world.
I'm with you hun we gotta stay strong ! I feel like many non minority members don't understand when something is brought to their attention because their so dead focused on this idea that their correct and their opinion matters due to whatever reason. It's going to take a while to move past that but getting the dogpile threads to happen less and less would be a good start.I'm a trans woman and I don't want to paint everyone with the same brush, but the Gaming side of this forum has made me literally cry on several occasions. Big ol sobs of frustration. Do I need to get a thicker skin? No. Do I need to be less emotional? No.
Do people need to fucking listen to and respect trans people when we say that we're struggling to survive while constantly being the butt of jokes at best and the targets of beating/murder at worst? Unequivocally, yes.
Thinking about this thread about that hey maybe there's problems with Horizon: Forbidden West. It being a sequel to a game that is incredibly culturally appropriative (something people have been dismissive of in the past), it's really not out there at all that to think that a sequel that's literally called Forbidden West isn't going to handle this stuff well either.
And that thread then ended up being nothing but people dismissing OP's concerns. It was then locked, with the moderator initially dismissed those concerns as well in the lock message saying the OP was overthinking things, though it's been edited since.
no, i say we have to think twice what would help the world and not banning everything that could consider of something that harm some people. like comedians does all of the time.I am kind of confused what you want to say here. Do you mean people shouldn't care about the Stuff like with apu because there are worse things going on in the world?
I'm a trans woman and I don't want to paint everyone with the same brush, but the Gaming side of this forum has made me literally cry on several occasions. Big ol sobs of frustration. Do I need to get a thicker skin? No. Do I need to be less emotional? No.
Do people need to fucking listen to and respect trans people when we say that we're struggling to survive while constantly being the butt of jokes at best and the targets of beating/murder at worst? Unequivocally, yes.
To be clear; comedians that use transphobic jokes as part of their set can go fuck themselves into the sun.no, i say we have to think twice what would help the world and not banning everything that could consider of something that harm some people. like comedians does all of the time.
God it's not going great on ECT either rn just shaking my head at the idiocy on display by some people.I won't directly link it, as it's nice to have a string of positivity going in this thread, but wanted to note about the Catherine Full Body thread that had a short life earlier. The response there really underlines the issue here of transphobia being a mere footnote to most gamers when it comes to problematic content. People will happily ignore transphobic content if it they are dead-set on buying a game.
The most dismaying part of the thread was the poll: 60% of those who voted said 'yes' to the game being worth buying, which becomes an issue when 'buy used' was in the poll as a separate option.
Well your banned so you probably won't see this (and with that attitude probably wouldn't care) but I would still like to address it especially as maybe it could educate a lurker or two.no, i say we have to think twice what would help the world and not banning everything that could consider of something that harm some people. like comedians does all of the time.
for example we have in our country a group that makes songs for children, now a lot of people complaint about this picture: https://images1.persgroep.net/rcs/k...=2dc96dd3f167e919913d808324cbfeb2&quality=0.8
its of a new music clip that goes about Egyptian story. people says the picture is racisme because they aren't really Egyptians. I ask my self howfar do we need to go with this, do we need to ban all magazines where pretty skinny girls are covered (models..) because it harms all the girls that have a bit more weight.
I do have a line don't take me wrong. but we have to start with the cause and i believe it is with giving those and all people a change to be equal like us and have more respect for them. And its together not one side that you can reach that goal. but it would be a long road.
Amen at that shit trans people are under alot of folks radars and since shit likes to paint us as sneaky sneaks it leads to alot of violence against us. At the end of the day all we want to do is enjoy our lives to the fullest without feeling paranoid that someones gonna stab you in the back. This shit happens everywhere even in the liberalist cities because trans violence is so normalized. And also when you have big media outlets and the president pushing new laws to fuck us over all the time there's no escape from it.Well your banned so you probably won't see this (and with that attitude probably wouldn't care) but I would still like to address it especially as maybe it could educate a lurker or two.
Societal attitudes often get swung one way or the other, and as people become familiar with things they can be more understanding so media absolutely matters. I will even go out on a limb and posit that the increase of gay representation in media and the increase in positive rep along with people realizing those around them also included gays directly contributed to the larger acceptance of gay rights, especially marriage.
As for trans people it's the minority of the smallest percentage, and it is entirely possible without bigotry (and those flying under the radar to avoid bigotry) that lots of people never will, at least to their knowledge even know a trans person. At least in America (I cannot and will not speak for other countries and cultures positive or negative with authority) most people's experience with or perception of transgender people will come mostly if not entirely through media. And the majority of media (Movies, games, tv, comedians, etc) is overwhelmingly negative.
And it leads to real world bigotry and violence against trans people, and a lot of media says that's A-ok. Call me when "it's a me, Mario" leads to people getting killed, and while your waiting to find an example do a little digging into the fact that trans women of color, especially those that are African American are the group with the highest statistically chance of commiting suicide or being murdered, overwhelmingly negative media portrayals that at best dismiss concerns or make puke jokes, and at worst imply that it's good that murders happen (also while your waiting for that Mario Murder do some investigating into the "trans panic defense" and the fact it's still legal to use it in some states in the usa) so yes media very much matters, and if a comedian gets cancelled (which never fucking sticks by the way, black trans women keep getting murdered and Dave Chappelle will get another record breaking Netflix deal) for this shit, fuck em.
If it helps we successfully stopped folks from being dicks in another thread. If they wanna shout us down we gotta shout back.I'm tired.
I'm so tired of seeing minority opinions being slagged off, of bad faith arguments that rely on extreme mischaracterization, of people being treated badly just because they don't align with the predominantly cis white male viewpoints that dominate this forum.
I just wish people would learn to shut up and listen. How many more communities must be purged and how many members must be driven away before people will get that?
TBH, I don't even know why I'm posting this here. It's not the like the people who are perpetrating it will be in this thread.
Yeah, Disclosure is really good and I have been recommending it to anyone who wants to actually understand but doesn't why the context around trans people in media makes it a little more deeper and complex than a lot of conversation about social issues and media.been reading this thread, and keeping watching it. thank you very much for this. i do try to understand it all, and see how it looks on the other side, but i admit there's still a lot more to learn.
if i may recommend something, since i've seen that some posts about depiction of transgender people, and it reminded me of a documentary i've seen on netflix. it also taught me a lot
Adding polls to those sorts of threads is just a bad idea.
The Catherine, Nadine, and especially the Harry Potter thread polls probably legit made some people feel unwelcomed on the site.
We know the drill, people vote their real opinion on the poll, then ignore posting anything on the thread, in fear of getting banned.
I agree entirely. We closed a similar poll earlier on today- if you see poll threads lining up the consumer indifference of the majority vs minority issues, please do report or pm a mod if you can. There's no way we should be allowing minority issues to sit in a poll allowing fans of an IP to simply '+1' to indifference anonymously.At the very least people should be required to post their reasoning for their choice. if that isn't possible then threads like all of these with polls should just be straight up banned because I refuse to believe that they are posted with good faith now, all they do is cause hurt.
Last night there was one about a op asking if naming covid the Wuhan virus was racist. 30 people said no. Like I don't even know e.eI agree entirely. We closed a similar poll earlier on today- if you see poll threads lining up the consumer indifference of the majority vs minority issues, please do report or pm a mod if you can. There's no way we should be allowing minority issues to sit in a poll allowing fans of an IP to simply '+1' to indifference anonymously.